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Dreger: Sharks one of 8 teams in on Turris

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Old
11-02-2011, 02:32 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Where did it go? I know Sheppard was acquired for our 2013 3rd.
It's Philadelphia's pick now. We traded the pick to Florida at the draft in June to move up and get Matt Nieto. They traded it to Philly for Kris Versteeg.

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11-02-2011, 02:59 PM
  #52
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Thanks PF. So say we are a week or two before the 12/1 playing deadline. Sure Turris wants $3-4M per, but he isn't worth that. Say the Yotes are willing to let him sit out the season. They sure are getting there.

If you are Turris, you want to sign an offer sheet with someone at this point. Even if it's the Sharks for one year at $1.5M (or maybe the Flames on the long term deal, I hear they are wanting him bad, or another team). That way, once you sign that contract, you (Turris) know you will be on an NHL roster making NHL money (whether it be for the Yotes or someone else)

If Turris does NOT sign an offer sheet a week before 12/1 or with the Yotes before 12/1, he makes no money this season and loses this season completely. Thus, it would seem that Turris' agent should be soliciting for offer sheets, and specifically trying to get the best offer sheet possible.

And for the other teams, it seems to make sense to offer as low of an offer sheet as possible. After all, Turris has no leverage in this situation. No team is going throw him a 3 year, $3M/per offer sheet. If he gets a multi year offer sheet, it will probably have a cap hit of around $1M. Maybe a team would throw him a 1-2 year offer sheet at $1.5M. Whatever it is, those teams can make sure it's better than what the Yotes want to pay. Then with a signed offer sheet (contract), the Yotes can decide if they want Turris under the terms of the offer sheet or let him go (and possibly take nothing of the cap hit is at the level where there is no comp).

So from the Sharks POV, say the Monday before Thanksgiving rolls around and Turris is still not signed. That might be the time for DW to swoop in and offer a 1-2 year deal with a cap hit that either provides no compensation. If that's the only offer sheet out there, and the Yotes aren't going to sign him for more than the Sharks are offering, then if you are Turris on 11/21/11 you might very well sign that. If the Yotes match, no skin off DW's back.

Even to those saying that there is a code not to mess with other teams' RFA's, this is a different situation. This isn't Doughty or Stamkos. It's Kyle Turris, who hasn't done much in the NHL to date and the Yotes may deprive him of an NHL paycheck. No dishonor in DW coming in to help an NHL'er get some money.
The only way Turris would sign an offer sheet is it's for a big overpayment, otherwise, the Coyotes would match it and the whole point of this holdout is because he doesn't want to play for the Coyotes.

Why would the Coyotes just let him go for no compensation? Or even a 3rd round pick?

Also, this is one of those times that, in my opinion, an offersheet would be a crappy thing to do. This isn't a team that's in cap trouble or a player that's worth the so called 'bad blood' that comes with the offer sheet.

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11-02-2011, 03:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Thanks PF. So say we are a week or two before the 12/1 playing deadline. Sure Turris wants $3-4M per, but he isn't worth that. Say the Yotes are willing to let him sit out the season. They sure are getting there.

If you are Turris, you want to sign an offer sheet with someone at this point. Even if it's the Sharks for one year at $1.5M (or maybe the Flames on the long term deal, I hear they are wanting him bad, or another team). That way, once you sign that contract, you (Turris) know you will be on an NHL roster making NHL money (whether it be for the Yotes or someone else)

If Turris does NOT sign an offer sheet a week before 12/1 or with the Yotes before 12/1, he makes no money this season and loses this season completely. Thus, it would seem that Turris' agent should be soliciting for offer sheets, and specifically trying to get the best offer sheet possible.

And for the other teams, it seems to make sense to offer as low of an offer sheet as possible. After all, Turris has no leverage in this situation. No team is going throw him a 3 year, $3M/per offer sheet. If he gets a multi year offer sheet, it will probably have a cap hit of around $1M. Maybe a team would throw him a 1-2 year offer sheet at $1.5M. Whatever it is, those teams can make sure it's better than what the Yotes want to pay. Then with a signed offer sheet (contract), the Yotes can decide if they want Turris under the terms of the offer sheet or let him go (and possibly take nothing of the cap hit is at the level where there is no comp).

So from the Sharks POV, say the Monday before Thanksgiving rolls around and Turris is still not signed. That might be the time for DW to swoop in and offer a 1-2 year deal with a cap hit that either provides no compensation. If that's the only offer sheet out there, and the Yotes aren't going to sign him for more than the Sharks are offering, then if you are Turris on 11/21/11 you might very well sign that. If the Yotes match, no skin off DW's back.

Even to those saying that there is a code not to mess with other teams' RFA's, this is a different situation. This isn't Doughty or Stamkos. It's Kyle Turris, who hasn't done much in the NHL to date and the Yotes may deprive him of an NHL paycheck. No dishonor in DW coming in to help an NHL'er get some money.
The Sharks can only offer in the salary ranges for which they have their own picks. Almost no player signs a one-year offersheet. The sheets are almost always multi-year. From what I see of the picks that they have, an offersheet would not be at all appetizing for DW because of the salary that it would mandate.

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11-02-2011, 03:47 PM
  #54
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The only way Turris would sign an offer sheet is it's for a big overpayment, otherwise, the Coyotes would match it and the whole point of this holdout is because he doesn't want to play for the Coyotes.
You obviously don't understand my point. When 12/1 strikes with no contract, the big issue is he gets no NHL paycheck for 2011-2012. Do you understand that? No money and definitely no playing in the NHL.

If he is prepared to sit out a year and not make any money, fine, but if I'm Kyle Turris I want a paycheck and I want to play in the NHL. So as the days approach 12/1 (or as PF said, the days approach seven days before 12/1), an offer sheet becomes more attractive to me because once I sign an offer sheet (provided it's seven days before 12/1), I know I will be getting an NHL paycheck for at least 2011-2012.

Stalockrox, do you understand my point?

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11-02-2011, 03:50 PM
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Th Almost no player signs a one-year offersheet. The sheets are almost always multi-year.

True, but this situation is unique. Turris is facing not playing and not earning a paycheck at all for 2011-2012 in the NHL. If the Yotes are prepared to let him sit, he needs to find a way to play and earn an NHL paycheck. Thus, if I'm Kyle Turris, I want an offer sheet, and given that the teams know he's in a bind, the best offer sheet he may get is a one year offersheet.

If his only option is a one year offersheet or not earning an NHL paycheck, he may sign such an offer sheet.

I agree as to DW, the Sharks are really only in a position to offer a no comp offer sheet. But if that's the best Turris will get, and the Yotes sit on their hands and want him to sit on the bench, Turris could sign. Or another team could throw him an offer sheet he really likes and then he signs. Point is, at some as we approach seven days until 12/1, an offer sheet of ANY kind becomes very attractive, since the Yotes could be forcing the alternative to be no playing and no paycheck in 2011-2012 in the NHL.

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11-02-2011, 03:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
True, but this situation is unique. Turris is facing not playing and not earning a paycheck at all for 2011-2012 in the NHL. If the Yotes are prepared to let him sit, he needs to find a way to play and earn an NHL paycheck. Thus, if I'm Kyle Turris, I want an offer sheet, and given that the teams know he's in a bind, the best offer sheet he may get is a one year offersheet.

If his only option is a one year offersheet or not earning an NHL paycheck, he may sign such an offer sheet.

I agree as to DW, the Sharks are really only in a position to offer a no comp offer sheet. But if that's the best Turris will get, and the Yotes sit on their hands and want him to sit on the bench, Turris could sign. Or another team could throw him an offer sheet he really likes and then he signs. Point is, at some as we approach seven days until 12/1, an offer sheet of ANY kind becomes very attractive, since the Yotes could be forcing the alternative to be no playing and no paycheck in 2011-2012 in the NHL.
The Yotes would match a no comp offersheet and trade him later.

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11-02-2011, 03:55 PM
  #57
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You obviously don't understand my point. When 12/1 strikes with no contradct, the big issue is he gets no NHL paycheck for 2011-2012. Do you understand that? No money and definitely no playing in the NHL.

If he is prepared to sit out a year and not make any money, fine, but if I'm Kyle Turris I want a paycheck and I want to play in the NHL. So as the days approach 12/1 (or as PF said, the days approach seven days before 12/1), an offer sheet becomes more attractive to me because once I sign an offer sheet (provided it's seven days before 12/1), I know I will be getting an NHL paycheck.

Stalockrox, do you understand my point?
I'm capable of reading, yes. Do you understand why he's holding out?

He may cave and sign a 1 year deal with Phoenix but as Easy mentioned, teams don't tend to offer 1 year offersheets so again, no, I don't see him signing an offersheet. I don't think any of this has anything to do with money for him, Phoenix offered him a contract, he didnt sign it.

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11-02-2011, 03:56 PM
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The Yotes would match a no comp offersheet and trade him later.
Fine, but if I'm Turris, I'm at least earning an NHL paycheck, even if the Yotes bench me, right?

If the Yotes then tried to send Turris down to the AHL, he'd have to clear waivers, right? If that understanding is correct, he most certainly would not clear at a no comp cap hit.


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11-02-2011, 04:01 PM
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I'm capable of reading, yes. Do you understand why he's holding out?

He may cave and sign a 1 year deal with Phoenix but as Easy mentioned, teams don't tend to offer 1 year offersheets so again, no, I don't see him signing an offersheet. I don't think any of this has anything to do with money for him, Phoenix offered him a contract, he didnt sign it.
I understand why he's holding out, money:
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/T...494/story.html

He wanted $4M per, Yotes balked, and now the Yotes say they won't trade him under ANY circumstances (see the quote in the article). So they are trying to force him to cave in to avoid going 2011-2012 without an NHL paycheck. Turris can sidestep with an offer sheet and it's in his best interest to do so (Assuming teams are throwing them out there).

Forget about the Sharks for a second, put yourself in the shoes of Turris. The Yotes say they won't trade you and want you to sign for their price or sit out without pay. You want $4M per, but nobody in the league is going to pay you that at this point. If I am in those shoes, and other teams will sign me for my services at just about any amount higher than what the Yotes are currently offering, thus insuring my NHL paycheck for 2011-2012, I'd be considering it at this point with less than one month to go before that 12/1 drop dead date. I really doubt a 22 year old can "afford" (in multiple senses of the word) to go an entire NHL season without pay.

I don't know if a KHL team (or other league) is calling, but I haven't heard much in that front so I am assuming he wants to play 11-12 in the NHL.


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11-02-2011, 04:05 PM
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I understand why he's holding out, money:
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/T...494/story.html

He wanted $4M per, Yotes balked, and now the Yotes say they won't trade him under ANY circumstances (see the quote in the article). So they are trying to force him to cave in to avoid going 2011-2012 without an NHL paycheck. Turris can sidestep with an offer sheet and it's in his best interest to do so (Assuming teams are throwing them out there).

Forget about the Sharks for a second, put yourself in the shoes of Turris. The Yotes won't trade him and want him to sign for their price or sit out without pay. You want $4M per, but nobody in the league is going to pay you that at this point. If I am in those shoes, and other teams will sign me for my services, thus insuring my NHL paycheck for 2011-2012, I'd be considering it at this point with less than one month to go before that 12/1 drop dead date. I really doubt a 22 year old can "afford" (in multiple senses of the word) to go an entire NHL season without pay.
He's not holding out for money - he's holding out because he doesn't want to play for the Phoenix Coyotes.

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11-02-2011, 04:08 PM
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He's not holding out for money - he's holding out because he doesn't want to play for the Phoenix Coyotes.
Links? I've seen many articles this summer and fall about this being a money issue, including the one I attached. It may have now devolved into him not wanting to play for the Yotes, but everything I've seen started as him wanting $4M per, i.e., being paid for potential, not production to date.

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11-02-2011, 04:08 PM
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Wait, why would anyone here be against trading our 2012 1st round pick? We don't even have a good track record with 1st rounders. You people are silly.

As for those who say that he has character issues. Everyone said the same thing about Dany Heatley.

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11-02-2011, 04:19 PM
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Wait, why would anyone here be against trading our 2012 1st round pick? We don't even have a good track record with 1st rounders. You people are silly.

As for those who say that he has character issues. Everyone said the same thing about Dany Heatley.
I think this particular draft year, I'd rather they trade the pick and move down a bit to get multiple picks in the 2nd round.

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11-02-2011, 04:20 PM
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Links? I've seen many articles this summer and fall about this being a money issue, including the one I attached. It may have now devolved into him not wanting to play for the Yotes, but everything I've seen started as him wanting $4M per, i.e., being paid for potential, not production to date.
"This has never been about money, we've been upfront with the club from Day 1," Overhardt told ESPN.com Thursday. "We've respectfully requested that the player had the opportunity to move forward in his career by having a fresh start."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp15929

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11-02-2011, 04:25 PM
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Wait, why would anyone here be against trading our 2012 1st round pick? We don't even have a good track record with 1st rounders. You people are silly.

As for those who say that he has character issues. Everyone said the same thing about Dany Heatley.
And Heatley is no longer with the Sharks.

I don't think Heatley has gross character issues, but I do think he has some subtle ones that even some members of this board are unwilling to recognize. I don't think he does well incorporating the perceptions of others with his perceptions of himself. Not very good at learning.

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11-02-2011, 04:41 PM
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And Heatley is no longer with the Sharks.

I don't think Heatley has gross character issues, but I do think he has some subtle ones that even some members of this board are unwilling to recognize. I don't think he does well incorporating the perceptions of others with his perceptions of himself. Not very good at learning.
Heatley didn't get traded because of character issues. We took him in in hopes of getting more scoring as a luxury. We sort of did. However the cap hit was not friendly to our future, so had to be let go.

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11-02-2011, 04:45 PM
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Heatley didn't get traded because of character issues. We took him in in hopes of getting more scoring as a luxury. We sort of did. However the cap hit was not friendly to our future, so had to be let go.
Yes and no. As I said, subtle.

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11-02-2011, 04:49 PM
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Yes and no. As I said, subtle.
Subtle as in what?

The All star thing?

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11-02-2011, 04:57 PM
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Subtle as in what?

The All star thing?
More.

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11-02-2011, 05:01 PM
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More.
Care to elaborate? I'm not buying your "subtle" argument. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he had any character issues. Doug Wilson and Todd McLellan spoke very highly of him after he was traded. Call it media talk or whatever, but that's all we have.
He was very close friends with a number of Sharks off the ice (hung out with Setoguchi, went to tons of baseball games with Clowe). He even had his pre-game fist bumps with Marleau before they left the locker-room.

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11-02-2011, 05:09 PM
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Gotta love Easy posts. We can't just take your word on it, man. That's not how discussions work.

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11-02-2011, 05:11 PM
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Care to elaborate? I'm not buying your "subtle" argument. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he had any character issues. Doug Wilson and Todd McLellan spoke very highly of him after he was traded. Call it media talk or whatever, but that's all we have.
He was very close friends with a number of Sharks off the ice (hung out with Setoguchi, went to tons of baseball games with Clowe). He even had his pre-game fist bumps with Marleau before they left the locker-room.
I obviously can't speak for easy or say anything with absolute certainty but if Heatley was in any sense honest about his reasoning for requesting out of Ottawa due to the minutes he was playing, I could guess that he wasn't too happy about being relegated to the 2nd line, barely seeing any PK time, and wasn't really the focal point on the PP.

I don't think Heatley was a bad teammate in the slightest and he was not at all bringing any undue attention onto himself. However, I could see him not being happy behind the scenes with his role diminishing.

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11-02-2011, 05:21 PM
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Care to elaborate? I'm not buying your "subtle" argument. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that he had any character issues. Doug Wilson and Todd McLellan spoke very highly of him after he was traded. Call it media talk or whatever, but that's all we have.
He was very close friends with a number of Sharks off the ice (hung out with Setoguchi, went to tons of baseball games with Clowe). He even had his pre-game fist bumps with Marleau before they left the locker-room.
More on the order of adjusting his game according to what was needed and applying himself more in-season and off-season to that purpose. Related to PF's comments. Had to do with self-satisfaction regarding his game. Nothing to do with interactions with teammates except as their being secondary issues to his own issues. Not adjusting his perceptions of what is required for the type of hockey necessary to win the cup and his place in the playing of that kind of hockey.

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11-02-2011, 05:29 PM
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I obviously can't speak for easy or say anything with absolute certainty but if Heatley was in any sense honest about his reasoning for requesting out of Ottawa due to the minutes he was playing, I could guess that he wasn't too happy about being relegated to the 2nd line, barely seeing any PK time, and wasn't really the focal point on the PP.

I don't think Heatley was a bad teammate in the slightest and he was not at all bringing any undue attention onto himself. However, I could see him not being happy behind the scenes with his role diminishing.
Yet there is nothing substantial to base it off of, so Easy shouldn't go around stating it like a fact. The main problem Heatley had in Ottawa was with the coach (Clouston is just horrible). When Heatley was demoted to the 2nd PP unit and 2nd/3rd lines in San Jose, he showed no signs of character issues. His effort was still there every night.
I just have a problem with the whole "subtle" argument when there is nothing to base it off of. What if I said "I don't think Marleau has gross character issues, but I do think he has some subtle ones that even some members of this board are unwilling to recognize." In the end, I have nothing to base it off of. I wouldn't hear the end of it from you two though.

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More on the order of adjusting his game according to what was needed and applying himself more in-season and off-season to that purpose.
He adjusted his game just fine. Sharks have the mentality of driving the net and getting the rebound goals. Heatley changed his playstyle of waiting for the perfect shot and did just that. He was probably the best Shark at getting the so-called "garbage" goals in front of the net. And when Todd McLellan emphasized the team-wide defense, he developed into a pretty decent two-way forward.
I have no idea how you can say anything about his off-season either. For the first half of the 10-11 season, he was probably the best Sharks' forward.

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11-02-2011, 05:38 PM
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Yet there is nothing substantial to base it off of, so Easy shouldn't go around stating it like a fact. The main problem Heatley had in Ottawa was with the coach (Clouston is just horrible). When Heatley was demoted to the 2nd PP unit and 2nd/3rd lines in San Jose, he showed no signs of character issues. His effort was still there every night.
I just have a problem with the whole "subtle" argument when there is nothing to base it off of. What if I said "I don't think Marleau has gross character issues, but I do think he has some subtle ones that even some members of this board are unwilling to recognize." In the end, I have nothing to base it off of. I wouldn't hear the end of it from you two though.



He adjusted his game just fine. Sharks have the mentality of driving the net and getting the rebound goals. Heatley changed his playstyle of waiting for the perfect shot and did just that. He was probably the best Shark at getting the so-called "garbage" goals in front of the net. And when Todd McLellan emphasized the team-wide defense, he developed into a pretty decent two-way forward.
I have no idea how you can say anything about his off-season either. For the first half of the 10-11 season, he was probably the best Sharks' forward.
I disagree with some of your assessments. His turnover issues have plagued his entire career and were a particular sore point in Ottawa with coaching/management. I do agree that there was some adjustment. Even with injuries, the decline of his skating is another point. That is an off-season exercise and if hindered by injury should have been addressed with medical people. I suspect that there is a medical path to correction that would involve significant time off from the sport.

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