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Old
11-20-2011, 04:20 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
You know he's American, right?
Where did I say Americans were bad? I'm saying it clouds Timmins judgement at times when there are better players available. Geoffrion should have been picked for his name and pedigree combination. The fact that he was an American going the College route made him a 100% match to our drafting philosophy.

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11-20-2011, 04:29 PM
  #202
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Ah good times.
Hey, the picks are what is important. What you do with them, that's your call.

It could have been transformed into Giroux, Lucic and Marchand...

More seriously, my 2nd rounders would have been, at that time, McBain and Geoffrion. While he does translate or not, I have NO IDEA how Geoffrion was indeed not picked by us. He had everything Timmins is looking in a player. From being American to having the bloodlines. And he's a pretty good skater. Clearly, Mathieu Carle was damn impressive at the Habs Q bootcamp.

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11-20-2011, 04:29 PM
  #203
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Timmins was hired as head scout in the fall of 2002 - actually this is his tenth year with the Habs after spending ten years with the Senators.

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11-20-2011, 04:44 PM
  #204
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I just thought it was funny that you were complaining of Timmins's American bias and then saying we should have drafted an American with one of our seconds, which we spent on Canadians.

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11-20-2011, 05:19 PM
  #205
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels Timmins focuses on Americans. I guess if it's what he's good at and it gets us more Paciorettys than Fischers I can't complain though. I'm not a big Kristo fan but he should be an NHL quality scorer in some way. I think I'm biased myself and my dislike of NCAA hockey clouds my judgement, so maybe I shouldn't talk.

Timmins has done a good job overall though.

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11-20-2011, 05:33 PM
  #206
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels Timmins focuses on Americans. I guess if it's what he's good at and it gets us more Paciorettys than Fischers I can't complain though. I'm not a big Kristo fan but he should be an NHL quality scorer in some way. I think I'm biased myself and my dislike of NCAA hockey clouds my judgement, so maybe I shouldn't talk.

Timmins has done a good job overall though.
14 Americans in 9 drafts.

Colin Sullivan D (198th 2011)
Josiah Didier D (97th 2011)
Jarred Tinordi D (22nd 2010)
Mac Bennett D (79th 2009)
Mike Cichy C (199th 2009)
Danny Kristo W (56th 2008)
Steve Quailer W (86th 2008)
Patrick Johnson C (206th 2008)
Ryan McDonagh D (12th 2007)
Max Pacioretty W (22nd 2007)
Joe Stejskal D (133rd 2007)
Scott Kishel D (192nd 2007)
David Fischer D (20th 2006)
J.T. Wyman W (100th 2004)

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11-20-2011, 05:51 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Hey, the picks are what is important. What you do with them, that's your call.

It could have been transformed into Giroux, Lucic and Marchand...

More seriously, my 2nd rounders would have been, at that time, McBain and Geoffrion. While he does translate or not, I have NO IDEA how Geoffrion was indeed not picked by us. He had everything Timmins is looking in a player. From being American to having the bloodlines. And he's a pretty good skater. Clearly, Mathieu Carle was damn impressive at the Habs Q bootcamp.
Mathieu Carle has very quick feet, apparently.

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Old
11-20-2011, 05:59 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
If I recall correctly.


Timmins biggest flaw I think is he is biased towards Americans. He saw something in Fischer nobody else did, and he was wrong. Some teams had Fischer on their do not draft(with ANY pick) list, and we took him first round. Maxwell and Carle were just bad picks, we most certainly should have taken Blake Geoffrion with one of those. Generally though the 2006 draft was ****. One of the few years where pretty much all the good players were first rounders.
You'll see that I have the same opinion as you do as far as Geoffrion is concerned. Didn't read your post, just did and I totally agree.

As far as Fischer is concerned, I don't remember the scout's name, but while Timmins liked Fischer, he mostly took the scout's advice who was actually assuring Timmins that the kid was a diamond in the rough. The scout's sold him the idea and Timmins bought it. Wasn't actually Timmins first instincts, that I know. Can't tell you who was or if he had any. Just that the scout came out really strong. Some people will say that most scouts will come out strong.....but I did hear that this scout almost put his job on the line. The strangest thing is that I think the guy still has a job with us whether it's Berglund or Westrum.

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11-20-2011, 09:13 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You'll see that I have the same opinion as you do as far as Geoffrion is concerned. Didn't read your post, just did and I totally agree.

As far as Fischer is concerned, I don't remember the scout's name, but while Timmins liked Fischer, he mostly took the scout's advice who was actually assuring Timmins that the kid was a diamond in the rough. The scout's sold him the idea and Timmins bought it. Wasn't actually Timmins first instincts, that I know. Can't tell you who was or if he had any. Just that the scout came out really strong. Some people will say that most scouts will come out strong.....but I did hear that this scout almost put his job on the line. The strangest thing is that I think the guy still has a job with us whether it's Berglund or Westrum.
Westrum coached Fischer at one point - didn't put his job or the line or anything, but certainly recommended him. That one bugs Trevor the most I think. He had scouted Giroux many times and liked him a lot, had visited him at his parents' home more than once, and really did his homework on him, but he went with the consensus. which was the approach Gainey liked his scouting staff to take. Trevor wasn't completely sold as the Habs moved down.

BTW - Fischer is actually putting up decent numbers so far this season in the E. Eight points and +5 in 11 games. I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in the AHL by season's end. How old is he...23? I would imagine he still hopes to make it some day. If he ever fully dedicates himself and puts on that 30 pounds he needs, it's still not beyond the realm of possibility that he makes the NHL in a few years as a 6th or 7th defenceman. Obviously he's had time to let it sink in that he's not as great as he thought he was coming out of Minnesota high school (Mr. Hockey and all), and that you can't get by on talent alone. Time will tell whether he ever quite figures that out.


Last edited by Grant McCagg: 11-20-2011 at 09:19 PM.
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Old
11-20-2011, 10:10 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You'll see that I have the same opinion as you do as far as Geoffrion is concerned. Didn't read your post, just did and I totally agree.

As far as Fischer is concerned, I don't remember the scout's name, but while Timmins liked Fischer, he mostly took the scout's advice who was actually assuring Timmins that the kid was a diamond in the rough. The scout's sold him the idea and Timmins bought it. Wasn't actually Timmins first instincts, that I know. Can't tell you who was or if he had any. Just that the scout came out really strong. Some people will say that most scouts will come out strong.....but I did hear that this scout almost put his job on the line. The strangest thing is that I think the guy still has a job with us whether it's Berglund or Westrum.
Vaughan Karpan was the one who pushed hard for David Fischer.

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Old
11-20-2011, 11:21 PM
  #211
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Well I'm on board with Timmin's making the choices rather than an underling cramming his pick unless its Grigorenko which is so obvious cramming wouldn't be necessary.One would think that the team's scout's would convene and have voiced their thought's on first and second round choices month's before so the head scout and GM &coach could have a look too.My thought is that any person in those positions would make sure they knew the player/players personally before ever signing off on them.(Thus making sure the team doesn't look like fools)

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Old
11-21-2011, 05:36 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Westrum coached Fischer at one point - didn't put his job or the line or anything, but certainly recommended him. That one bugs Trevor the most I think. He had scouted Giroux many times and liked him a lot, had visited him at his parents' home more than once, and really did his homework on him, but he went with the consensus. which was the approach Gainey liked his scouting staff to take. Trevor wasn't completely sold as the Habs moved down.

BTW - Fischer is actually putting up decent numbers so far this season in the E. Eight points and +5 in 11 games. I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in the AHL by season's end. How old is he...23? I would imagine he still hopes to make it some day. If he ever fully dedicates himself and puts on that 30 pounds he needs, it's still not beyond the realm of possibility that he makes the NHL in a few years as a 6th or 7th defenceman. Obviously he's had time to let it sink in that he's not as great as he thought he was coming out of Minnesota high school (Mr. Hockey and all), and that you can't get by on talent alone. Time will tell whether he ever quite figures that out.
And that's my problem regarding Q players and the Habs. The consensus would rarely go to them based on the fact that not a lot of people were selling it.

Putting on that 30 pounds he needed was due for a long time now. Yet, he was really sick at one point so it slowed down his progression. But you feel that most of his problems were more about commitment than anything else.

As far as the consensus and everything, to have a real consensus, you actually need that all of the scouts that give the said consensus, had a chance to see the players involved. Not sure we can say that Westrum or everybody that gave their vote to Fischer had seen Giroux. At one point, whether Gainey liked it or not, you either make sure that everybody sees everybody, or put the accountability on that guys that have seen everybody so there's an actual choice to make. Again, I'm mostly putting the Fischer's pick based on needs. It has been said that 2006 and 2007 was build on the fact that we didn't have a great D prospect pool. Actually I am not always against going with needs, if we would have had the same approach, chances are we would have had a good centerman. We didn't pick a big great centerman since the ages now. But there is a limit to the needs while Fischer was, BY NO MEANS, a surefire pick. Was already determine at the day of the pick that it was a big time project. While everybody raved at Giroux but was concerned by only one thing......the size. But you don't destroy a league, as bad as some thing it is, and not be looked seriously. And if you had look deeper, the kid was also not only an offensive threat. He was playing fairly well in all the other aspects.

So for me it's a big time miss based on different factors. So I'm not hindisighting and saying it's miss like most in here would say "win some, lose some". I'm just against the way it happened.

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Old
11-21-2011, 05:37 AM
  #213
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Vaughan Karpan was the one who pushed hard for David Fischer.
Like Grant said, I really think it was Westrum.

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11-21-2011, 07:15 AM
  #214
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Morgan Ellis rockin the Q like a boss.

Four points tonight.
Must confess I did not see this guy coming down the road. I leave that sort of thing to Whitesnake.

But man, this kid looks solid. You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but Ive always thought that the really good defensive D's often score quite well in junior. Same as really good defensive forwards, Carbo being the perfect example. I heard Ellis had a steady head in camp as well. Is this true?

Most of you guys know I'm Mr neg. But man, our D prospects and rookies are looking awesome. Have to say.

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Our best surprises on D will most likely come from a 4th and a 5th rounder. And our most exciting forwards up front will come from a 2nd and a 5th rounder. At one point, people will understand that every pick is important. We need to keep those picks. We have a very good head scout, we need to be using it.

Bang on. I've been ranting at TT missing big first rounders, and I stand by that, but I have no complaints at all on the rest of his picks. He's superb at finding the 'hidden' guys in later rounds and seems to be getting better.

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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
If I recall correctly.
Good post, but the guy who asked what IIRC was has a point. When's the shorthand going to stop you young guys?

ANWYCCDFY, AWYCDFYC. Easy peasy right you young scamps? See what I mean? Where does this hellish shorthand end?

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Good post, but the guy who asked what IIRC was has a point. When's the shorthand going to stop you young guys?

ANWYCCDFY, AWYCDFYC. Easy peasy right you young scamps? See what I mean? Where does this hellish shorthand end?
Give up?

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can you do for your country. See what I mean? How the hell were you going to guess that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
You know he's American, right?
Yeah Geoffrion has no Quebecois and Canadian roots at all. He came over on the Mayflower.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 11-21-2011 at 10:05 AM. Reason: merge
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Old
11-21-2011, 08:01 AM
  #215
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Give up?

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can you do for your country. See what I mean? How the hell were you going to guess that?
You just quoted yourself....

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11-21-2011, 08:06 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You'll see that I have the same opinion as you do as far as Geoffrion is concerned. Didn't read your post, just did and I totally agree.

As far as Fischer is concerned, I don't remember the scout's name, but while Timmins liked Fischer, he mostly took the scout's advice who was actually assuring Timmins that the kid was a diamond in the rough. The scout's sold him the idea and Timmins bought it. Wasn't actually Timmins first instincts, that I know. Can't tell you who was or if he had any. Just that the scout came out really strong. Some people will say that most scouts will come out strong.....but I did hear that this scout almost put his job on the line. The strangest thing is that I think the guy still has a job with us whether it's Berglund or Westrum.
If above is true, TT will have learned by now to go with his instincts and judgement. Fischer taught him that lesson.

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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
Well I'm on board with Timmin's making the choices rather than an underling cramming his pick unless its Grigorenko which is so obvious cramming wouldn't be necessary.One would think that the team's scout's would convene and have voiced their thought's on first and second round choices month's before so the head scout and GM &coach could have a look too.My thought is that any person in those positions would make sure they knew the player/players personally before ever signing off on them.(Thus making sure the team doesn't look like fools)
Damn good point. Seems obvious does it not?


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Old
11-21-2011, 08:11 AM
  #217
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You just quoted yourself....
Yes, he did!

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11-21-2011, 08:18 AM
  #218
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You just quoted yourself....
I know Viggo. I do that. Inexcusable but I'm s bit of an arse. Just ask around.

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11-21-2011, 08:26 AM
  #219
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What I would like to see is a list after the draft saying which scout recommended who. So afterwards, we can see which scout is better at it.

I am glad that two drafts ago (in LA) Mtl fired most of their scouts under Timmins, that gave me hope that they do care.

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11-21-2011, 08:32 AM
  #220
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Yeah Geoffrion has no Quebecois and Canadian roots at all. He came over on the Mayflower.
For chrissakes, this is so stupid. He was born in Florida, played his youth hockey in Nashville and at Culver, played a few years in the USNDTP, and played four years at UW.

In the context of complaining about missing players due to an American bias, complaining that said player, who never once played for a Canadian team and who I am not even sure has Canadian citizenship was missed due to an American bias is totally mindboggling. Unless I'm just being trolled, in which case: touche.

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11-21-2011, 08:44 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
For chrissakes, this is so stupid. He was born in Florida, played his youth hockey in Nashville and at Culver, played a few years in the USNDTP, and played four years at UW.

In the context of complaining about missing players due to an American bias, complaining that said player, who never once played for a Canadian team and who I am not even sure has Canadian citizenship was missed due to an American bias is totally mindboggling. Unless I'm just being trolled, in which case: touche.
He's also the grand-son of one of the team's greats, and grand-grand-son of Howie Morenz, another habs great. Timmins' modus operandi is often based on skating ability, bloodlines and has a tendency to draft us based players. Blake fits in all those categories.

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11-21-2011, 09:18 AM
  #222
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Are my eyes fooling me or is Didier being played at forward here?

http://www.collegehockeystats.net/11...s/mdenmns1.o22
He's been the 7th D all year, have seen him a few times already, he's never been used at forward in any of the games i've seen.

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Hmm anybody find any articles on Kishel? He's having a pretty solid season. I've completely written him off with his stats in the last 3 seasons but so far this season he's at 11pts in 14 ganes.
Everyone should have written him off after last season, as an upperclassman to get only 7 games is just terrible, granted his team won their first ever National Championship but to sit out healthy almost the entire season is not what you want to see. That said in the two games I've seen him this year he is playing his best hockey without a doubt (i've been watching him play for the last 5 years)

What's funny is that he had 11 pts in 47 career games over his first 3 years, this year he's already got 12 pts in 14 games.

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14 Americans in 9 drafts.

Colin Sullivan D (198th 2011)
Josiah Didier D (97th 2011)
Jarred Tinordi D (22nd 2010)
Mac Bennett D (79th 2009)
Mike Cichy C (199th 2009)
Danny Kristo W (56th 2008)
Steve Quailer W (86th 2008)
Patrick Johnson C (206th 2008)
Ryan McDonagh D (12th 2007)
Max Pacioretty W (22nd 2007)
Joe Stejskal D (133rd 2007)
Scott Kishel D (192nd 2007)
David Fischer D (20th 2006)
J.T. Wyman W (100th 2004)
15 Americans, Andrew Conboy LW (142nd 2007)

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11-21-2011, 10:21 AM
  #223
Ayatollah Chowmeini
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He's also the grand-son of one of the team's greats, and grand-grand-son of Howie Morenz, another habs great. Timmins' modus operandi is often based on skating ability, bloodlines and has a tendency to draft us based players. Blake fits in all those categories.
I guess I haven't been making myself clear. Look, I wish we had drafted Geoffrion as well. My one and only point was that it was stupid to complain about a supposed Timmins bias towards Americans if two sentences later he was going to complain about not taking Geoffrion (American) over Maxwell and Carle (Canadian). I was just pointing out the contradiction inherent in the post.

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11-21-2011, 10:31 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayatollah Chowmeini View Post
I guess I haven't been making myself clear. Look, I wish we had drafted Geoffrion as well. My one and only point was that it was stupid to complain about a supposed Timmins bias towards Americans if two sentences later he was going to complain about not taking Geoffrion (American) over Maxwell and Carle (Canadian). I was just pointing out the contradiction inherent in the post.
He pointed out the fact that Blake had roots in here. The other poster pointed out the fact that Timmins puts has USA coloured glasses, but thought he should have drafted Geoffrion, based on the points I showed you. She also said that USA has good players, but that you just can't ignore such a talented player in your backyard when avaiable.

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11-21-2011, 10:48 AM
  #225
Ayatollah Chowmeini
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He pointed out the fact that Blake had roots in here. The other poster pointed out the fact that Timmins puts has USA coloured glasses, but thought he should have drafted Geoffrion, based on the points I showed you. She also said that USA has good players, but that you just can't ignore such a talented player in your backyard when avaiable.
How does this make sense at all? If Timmins had USA colored glasses on for the picks people are complaining about (WCHA bound players from USNDTP, USHL, or US High School) then he should have taken Geoffrion with a 2006 second. It makes perfect sense. Instead he took two talented players from the backyard (Carle and Maxwell) who have, for all intents and purposes, busted. So therefore, it would seem illogical to complain about this American bias AND not taking Geoffrion. People can't have it both ways.

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