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Who Should Start Tomorrow? (Update: Enroth gets the nod)

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Old
11-03-2011, 11:42 AM
  #76
Buffalo87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
He did in the clip I saw on Sabres.com.

As a goalie, a problem I see is that Miller doesn't want to get into technical goaltending discussions with people who have no idea what they are talking about.

He did talk about cheating/guessing a bit and I don't like the sound of that.

But, he took responsibility for not being square and slightly off his angle.

And as a pet peeve, I didn't like Miller saying "I'm a butterfly goalie". The butterfly is a save selection and not a style. For instance, is he a glove save goalie when he makes a glove save or a VH goalie when he goes into the VH with the puck down low?
I never played goalie but there are different styles, no? Traditional butterfly like most goalies in the league, then you have guys like Thomas who are just unorthodox battlers, and then a guy like Brodeur who is more of a stand-up goalie. Not saying that should ever be an excuse for going down early, just saying..

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11-03-2011, 11:59 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
No, it's the constant criticism, qualified compliments when he plays well, etc... Any idea who started this thread?

Like I said, give it a rest.
You don;t think this was a thread worthy discussion after last night?

I've criticized Miller when he deserves it... like last night.

Lighten up pal.

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11-03-2011, 12:02 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
He did in the clip I saw on Sabres.com.

As a goalie, a problem I see is that Miller doesn't want to get into technical goaltending discussions with people who have no idea what they are talking about.

He did talk about cheating/guessing a bit and I don't like the sound of that.

But, he took responsibility for not being square and slightly off his angle.

And as a pet peeve, I didn't like Miller saying "I'm a butterfly goalie". The butterfly is a save selection and not a style. For instance, is he a glove save goalie when he makes a glove save or a VH goalie when he goes into the VH with the puck down low?
But he IS a Butterfly goalie. And it is his style.

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11-03-2011, 12:05 PM
  #79
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Who named is "butterfly" style? I mean, this is hockey, you can't name anything in hockey after a lovely flying insect!

They should call it DEATH GUARD style. Or how about, James Brown style, cause he was up and down very quickly. Or...how about Eagle style? Eagles have wings too.

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11-03-2011, 12:24 PM
  #80
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I've been going back and forth on this all night while sleep was lost vomiting over the first period.

I think you play Enroth next. And, quite frankly, I think we are indeed poised for GCT 467,843.5. This coming from one of the bigger Miller supporters on here.

Here are some of my logic tidbits:

- the position being one of mental strength and composure...when you lack/lose it, you're vulnerable

- Enroth looks GREAT in net. He plays confident, calm, poised, and doesn't let anything shake him. At first, I used to love when Miller would react after being slashed or chopped at. I saw that as intensity, passion, and an attempt to spark a team without fire or fiestiness. Now, after seeing Enroth NOT have those reactions, and move past them and worry about keeping black biscuit out of net and nothing else, I have grown to dislike those Miller reactions

[ note that those haven't been as prominent since the D toughened up a bit with Weber last year and Regehr this year, but they still exist ]

- To be honest, I think the team follows that calm presence of Enroth


So you can certainly make a case to ride Enroth if he's going to "right the ship" and help us win games. Isn't that the ultimate goal?

I still believe in Miller, I believe he's our goalie of the present and the foreseeable future. But I think that, right now, at 6-5 and clearly struggling, you simply ride the hot hand and bypass the ego-stroking. The GCT comes when Enroth plays so well that we simply can't take him out in favor of Miller. That'd be a welcomed predicament to be in.

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11-03-2011, 12:40 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
But he IS a Butterfly goalie. And it is his style.
Butterfly isn't a style.

It's a save technique.

http://www.goaliestore.com/board/doc...ml#post1734503

Quote:
Here is a statement for you:

" I am a glove save goalie"

The glove save is not a style... It is a particular save.

It is just as misguided as the uninitiated that refer to a goalie as a butterfly goalie.

It is just as misguided as someone that asks ( and the likely response) "what style goalie is he?" ....... Then the beauty.... "well he is a butterfly goalie."

There are really only two basic approaches that modern goalies use. When looking at a goaltending approach continuum, every goalie falls somewhere between two extremes.

A) pure elbow locked block everything OR

B) reacting on everything.

The prudent goalie falls ideally between those two extremes based on factors like size,experience, skill and athleticism. Both A and B use butterfly saves frequently in their tactical game.

The obvious implication is that the polarized versions above will not have predictable long term success.

My premise is that the goalie who can be a more patient reactionary goalie who blocks when he has to / should and reacts in all other situations.

So can we please dismiss the following descriptors from our enlightened verbiage.

1) there are zero stand up goalies anymore playing hockey of any significance.

2) there is no such thing as a butterfly goalie. There is only a goalie who uses a reactionary butterfly save as a goal and one who uses a blocking butterfly save as a goal.

One last semi unrelated word play rant........

Square to the Puck - defn. " the act of having ones shoulders, and feet equidistant to the puck irrespective of the goalie's placement in front of the net."

For example, the oft used misspeak relates to the fact that the goalie was square to the puck all night. The announcer MEANS the goalie was in the middle of the net or on angle all night. They call this being square to the puck.

In reality, the back up goalie could be square to the puck all night as long as he pivoted on the bench to "face" or square up to the puck as it moved around. It has nothing to do with the net. The referee cold be square to the puck all night as could the fan in the front row if he was agile.......just saying.

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Old
11-03-2011, 12:41 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post

- Enroth looks GREAT in net. He plays confident, calm, poised, and doesn't let anything shake him. At first, I used to love when Miller would react after being slashed or chopped at. I saw that as intensity, passion, and an attempt to spark a team without fire or fiestiness. Now, after seeing Enroth NOT have those reactions, and move past them and worry about keeping black biscuit out of net and nothing else, I have grown to dislike those Miller reactions
I'd say Enroth's demeanor is my favorite part about him. He's a very cool customer. If he ever does become the starter down the road, though, and then he signs a bigger contract, that will be construed as uncaring and lazy. Familiarity breeds contempt, I guess.

As far as Enroth's numbers, there's a sad truth, and you know it's coming at some point: Regression. To. The. Mean.

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11-03-2011, 12:43 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I'd say Enroth's demeanor is my favorite part about him. He's a very cool customer. If he ever does become the starter down the road, though, and then he signs a bigger contract, that will be construed as uncaring and lazy. Familiarity breeds contempt, I guess.

As far as Enroth's numbers, there's a sad truth, and you know it's coming at some point: Regression. To. The. Mean.
Bolded is oh so true

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Old
11-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You don;t think this was a thread worthy discussion after last night?

I've criticized Miller when he deserves it... like last night.

Lighten up pal.
The point is Jame, you criticize him even when he doesn't deserve it. He's your latest whipping boy. As for this thread, what I'm saying is it's no surprise it was you who started it.

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11-03-2011, 01:27 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Butterfly isn't a style.

It's a save technique.

http://www.goaliestore.com/board/doc...ml#post1734503
fine
Miller is a "blocking butterfly goalie".... not a "reactionary" one.

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11-03-2011, 01:28 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
The point is Jame, you criticize him even when he doesn't deserve it. He's your latest whipping boy. As for this thread, what I'm saying is it's no surprise it was you who started it.
i disagree.

I criticize everyone based on their play.

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Old
11-03-2011, 01:32 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
fine
Miller is a "blocking butterfly goalie".... not a "reactionary" one.
Not even close.

When Miller is playing well, he's closer to the reactionary end of the spectrum.

When he's playing poorly, he's in drop and block mode waaaaay too early and often, like last night.

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11-03-2011, 01:45 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Not even close.

When Miller is playing well, he's closer to the reactionary end of the spectrum.

When he's playing poorly, he's in drop and block mode waaaaay too early and often, like last night.
I disagree.
Miller does not react to the puck very well. Especially deflections. Miller "blocks" as much of the net as possible, and is successful due to his exceptional ability to read a play, anticipate, and keep his angles under control.

From a reactionary standpoint, he is very good with his lower body/legs... and awful from an upper body/blocker/glove perspective.

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11-03-2011, 01:52 PM
  #89
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Regression. To. The. Mean.
I hope not, Miller needs better than a .915 .

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11-03-2011, 02:11 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
I hope not, Miller needs better than a .915 .
You know what I meant. I'm not talking career means.

I hope the Buffalo Police is prepared for a messy scene when the Enroth bandwagon goes careening off the Kensington the first time he gives up 5 goals in 27 shots.

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11-03-2011, 02:15 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I disagree.
Miller does not react to the puck very well. Especially deflections. Miller "blocks" as much of the net as possible, and is successful due to his exceptional ability to read a play, anticipate, and keep his angles under control.

From a reactionary standpoint, he is very good with his lower body/legs... and awful from an upper body/blocker/glove perspective.
I agree, I think it's pretty clear up high is where to beat Miller.

As far as butterfly being a technique, and not a style. I understand that, but when you use that technique on pretty much every stop, doesn't it become a style? Hence in Millers case, and Luongo, and Lundqvist, and Rinne, and a lot of other goalies in the league.

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11-03-2011, 02:22 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Tim Thomas won a Vezina Trophy three years ago, then played less than half the games the next season because Rask was out-performing him. Thomas came back the next year, won another Vezina and a Stanley Cup.

If that can happen to Tim Thomas what makes Ryan Miller above sitting out a few games if Enroth is playing well? Or, Enroth playing MORE than Miller if he is playing better?

Enough with these fragile egos!

Play Enroth until he doesn't play well then go back to Miller and let him show his stuff again.
Hit the nail on the head.Right now Enroth is the better goalie and deserves to be the starter.Miller lost us the game last night, Enroth came in and gave us a chance to tie it.

Enough with the blind Miller love, he has had one great year along with several average ones...he is showing he is not even a top 10 goalie.

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11-03-2011, 02:26 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Hit the nail on the head.Right now Enroth is the better goalie and deserves to be the starter.Miller lost us the game last night, Enroth came in and gave us a chance to tie it.

Enough with the blind Miller love, he has had one great year along with several average ones...he is showing he is not even a top 10 goalie.
Marty Turco

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11-03-2011, 02:27 PM
  #94
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I don't think you need to coddle Miller. I can remember Rask beat Thomas out of his starting job for a stretch before Thomas came back and won a Cup. Going with the hot goalie when the other is struggling shouldn't be controversial.

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11-03-2011, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Hit the nail on the head.Right now Enroth is the better goalie and deserves to be the starter.Miller lost us the game last night, Enroth came in and gave us a chance to tie it.

Enough with the blind Miller love, he has had one great year along with several average ones...he is showing he is not even a top 10 goalie.
His 07-08 season is what I would define as average. I think this brings up a good point though, some fans are just unrealistic about what they expect from a goalie. Miller or not, these guys are a human, a guy who has put up .915 SV% each of the last 3 seasons and well on his way this year as well, that is not an average goalie.

With that said, I still think Enroth should start on Friday. If he gets a shutout then let him go Saturday too, if not then go back to Miller for Saturday.

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11-03-2011, 02:46 PM
  #96
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a guy who has put up .915 SV% each of the last 3 seasons and well on his way this year as well, that is not an average goalie..
Hate to break this to you, but .915 is pretty average in today's NHL.

Out of the top 40 goalies last season, .915 was right smack-dab in the middle of the range.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...1/seasontype/2

I'd say you have to go above .920 nowadays to be considered clearly above-average.

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11-03-2011, 02:55 PM
  #97
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Hate to break this to you, but .915 is pretty average in today's NHL.

Out of the top 40 goalies last season, .915 was right smack-dab in the middle of the range.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...1/seasontype/2

I'd say you have to go above .920 nowadays to be considered clearly above-average.
How many of those guys have done it 3 years in a row? Including one Vezina winning season?

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11-03-2011, 03:24 PM
  #98
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Enough with the blind Miller love, he has had one great year along with several average ones...he is showing he is not even a top 10 goalie.
I'm sorry, but no.

I'm being generous here and using statistics of goalies who played 50 or more games. It should be a higher number if you want to rank the elite or the top-10, but here's what you're looking at for goalies with minimum of 50GP:

10-11:
13th in wins
15th in GAA
13th in Sv%

09-10:
4th in wins
1st in GAA
1st in Sv%

08-09:
10th in wins
10th in GAA
5th in Sv%

07-08:
6th in wins
16th in GAA
18th in Sv%

06-07:
4th in wins
12th in GAA
11th in Sv%


And that's me being generous and using a 50-game barometer. You can't sit there and tell me that those numbers aren't extremely solid/consistent and right up there with goalies who can lead teams to Cups.

And that is NOT taking into account his playoff numbers, which are no joke either.

Stop hating on Miller's career because he is having a rough start to 11-12

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11-03-2011, 03:26 PM
  #99
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if someone wants to be more meticulous than I, please feel free to re-post those stats amongst goalies with 55+ or 60+ GP...his rankings will increase even more when compared to others leaguewide. Stop hating Miller. You can want Enroth to play right now without wanting Miller dead - there is, indeed, a happy medium. I've found it, and I encourage you all to do so, too

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11-03-2011, 03:29 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
if someone wants to be more meticulous than I, please feel free to re-post those stats amongst goalies with 55+ or 60+ GP...his rankings will increase even more when compared to others leaguewide. Stop hating Miller. You can want Enroth to play right now without wanting Miller dead - there is, indeed, a happy medium. I've found it, and I encourage you all to do so, too
But how will the GTC continue? It needs fuel...

Seriously, this is why having a good backup is important. Miller hasn't looked great, so Enroth can step up.

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