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Is it too early to say we need a new coach?

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Old
11-05-2011, 10:02 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
It's actually a great question, and that fact that these threads wind up 99% emotion 1% fact is probably a good indication of how difficult a question it is to answer.

What is it that makes Lindy good/bad? And what are the qualities of any other available candidates that would make them better? I don't know that anyone that hasn't been personally involved with multiple organizations can answer.
I think a good barometer is looking at the talent of a team and seeing how far they make it through the season. Look at Bylsma last season for the Pens. Lost both of their offensive stars, yet still made the playoffs.

That's the best I can come up with beyond W/L.

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11-05-2011, 10:12 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
He's a veteran coach that has successfully implemented extremely defensive first systems with success and high tempo offensive systems with success. His teams are usually well prepared and the system usually works. He is always tweaking and learning. He's more of a motivator/manager than a strategic guy and often fails to make in game adjustments quick enough.
you really think that? or by usually, do you mean like 50% of the time?
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The book against him is seems to play favorites a bit too much and it is almost impossible to get out of his doghouse once the players are in it. His guys are often giving a very long, to a fault, leash while guys who he deems not up to par have to play perfect games to avoid the bench. He can very much be a 'my way to the highway' style which can grate on players, as we saw with Afinogenov and, early in his career, Vanek. We also saw it with Torres and Moore in their short stays.
yup

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However, in the realm of coaches in the NHL, you will struggle to find coaches that know how to run a bench better. Trotz in Nashville, Babcock in Detroit, and Dan Bylsma in Pittsburgh are the only coaches who might be better than Ruff, overall. However, given his history here and his loyalty to the franchise and his desire to not only win a cup, but win a cup for Buffalo, he's not going to be replaced. No coach is without his faults, and yes, sometimes he gets a bit overhyped, but he is still a very good coach.
[/QUOTE]

aren't all NHL coaches "very good"? I mean how do you get here without being good at the job.

I think the primary problem with Lindy, is that his **** is stale.

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11-05-2011, 10:21 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think the primary problem with Lindy, is that his **** is stale.
I think that's an argument to consider -- hard to tell if Ruff isn't the right man for the job anymore though.

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11-05-2011, 12:29 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE, just maybe EVERY other coach would've been fired before they had a chance to do any of that?

Ever hear the old addage that if you put a monkey in front of a typerwriter (or laptop now), eventually, he'll randomly type a book?

My inital question: WHAT makes Ruff so worth repeated chances---more than just about ANY other coach in ALL of sports!
He keeps winning hockey games? Teams don't typically need an affirmative reason NOT to fire their coach. The underlying assumption is that you won't fire a coach without cause. It's expensive; it causes havoc, uncertainty and changes personalities. Ergo one needs a motivation.

When your coach wins at a superb rate (56%); frequently makes the playoffs and wins the majority of his playoff games that's prima facia evidence against firing him.

With the exception of the three years surrounding the bankruptcy, when Lindy got a free pass from the ownership turmoil, there hasn't been any reason to fire him.

If your requirement is win a cup or fire the coach then please say it; so everyone can disregard you. The spreads in hockey between good teams and bad teams are too tight to allow that as a reasonable basis for performance.

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11-05-2011, 12:47 PM
  #80
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11-05-2011, 01:33 PM
  #81
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holy heck in a handbasket. Someone told me this thread existed, but I didn't believe them.

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11-05-2011, 02:13 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
you really think that? or by usually, do you mean like 50% of the time?
No closer to 90-95% of the time the team seems very prepared and ready to go and Lindy has a good game plan against the opponent. Very rarely are Lindy Ruff teams not 'ready' when the puck drops. The Philadelphia game is an example of a game where the team wasn't ready. That's on Ruff

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aren't all NHL coaches "very good"? I mean how do you get here without being good at the job.

I think the primary problem with Lindy, is that his **** is stale.

Most NHL coaches have come through the ranks, yes. The issue is that not every coach is prepared for dealing with a locker room full of millionaires for 82 games + playoffs. A good assistant coach doesn't make a good head coach. Dave Lewis is a prime example of that. Coaching is more than X's and O's. It's dealing with ego's, getting players motivated, preparing them, and getting them to take their job seriously. Lindy does all of these as good as anyone in the NHL. I don't think you fire a coach just for the sake of firing. In fact, having a coach firmly entrenched cuts down alot of the drama of players going to the GM/Owner and talking behind a coach's back and players trying to get a coach fired.

I think the biggest issue in Buffalo is that every time the team struggles, fans think that change for change's sake will fix it. Lindy is a good coach. If you don't think he's top 5, he's at least top 10. Even if you get a bump from the change in scenery, unless you have a guy lined up to replace him who is familiar with the team, the players, and the situation (like we had with Dineen), you are going to end up rolling the dice on whether he's on par with the coach you lost.

Stability is behind the bench is a good thing. Unless you have someone who you think is going to be at least as good or better than Ruff. there really isn't a reason to make a change.

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11-05-2011, 04:19 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
No closer to 90-95% of the time the team seems very prepared and ready to go and Lindy has a good game plan against the opponent. Very rarely are Lindy Ruff teams not 'ready' when the puck drops. The Philadelphia game is an example of a game where the team wasn't ready. That's on Ruff




Most NHL coaches have come through the ranks, yes. The issue is that not every coach is prepared for dealing with a locker room full of millionaires for 82 games + playoffs. A good assistant coach doesn't make a good head coach. Dave Lewis is a prime example of that. Coaching is more than X's and O's. It's dealing with ego's, getting players motivated, preparing them, and getting them to take their job seriously. Lindy does all of these as good as anyone in the NHL. I don't think you fire a coach just for the sake of firing. In fact, having a coach firmly entrenched cuts down alot of the drama of players going to the GM/Owner and talking behind a coach's back and players trying to get a coach fired.

I think the biggest issue in Buffalo is that every time the team struggles, fans think that change for change's sake will fix it. Lindy is a good coach. If you don't think he's top 5, he's at least top 10. Even if you get a bump from the change in scenery, unless you have a guy lined up to replace him who is familiar with the team, the players, and the situation (like we had with Dineen), you are going to end up rolling the dice on whether he's on par with the coach you lost.

Stability is behind the bench is a good thing. Unless you have someone who you think is going to be at least as good or better than Ruff. there really isn't a reason to make a change.
do you think that applies to last year? or the Biron years?

I can't say i disagree with you on the second bolded.

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11-05-2011, 04:31 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
I just can't help but wonder why Lindy seems to get a pass
If you mean from the fanbase, it's because of the myth that he coaches a hardnosed style of game because he talks and acts all gruff most of the time. He's a perfect blue-collar guy, and Buffalo loves it some blue collar.

The reality is that his teams work hard sometimes when they feel like it, he coaches them to not take retaliatory penalties which makes them look like a bunch of babies.

My personal peeves are the doghousing and the constant line changing, the inability to manage goaltenders, playing favorites (Hello Derek Roy) and stupid sit on leads strategy that's burned them a ton of times. I also didn't think players developed well with him, but that has actually changed a lot recently.

I'm with jame though, I think the biggest problem is that his message is stale to a LOT of those guys. Or he's not hard enough on certain ones that they know what they can and can't get away with by now without getting benched for it.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
do you think that applies to last year? or the Biron years?
Or more importantly, the 06-07 Playoffs.

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11-05-2011, 04:48 PM
  #85
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I think he moved the lines around a little to early in the season, but I still really like Ruff. The only time I think it should come to that is if we are out of the top 8 around March. Even then I would not want to see Ruff go, but it might be a message to the team. Right now though it is WAY to early.

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11-05-2011, 05:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by sba View Post
If you mean from the fanbase, it's because of the myth that he coaches a hardnosed style of game because he talks and acts all gruff most of the time. He's a perfect blue-collar guy, and Buffalo loves it some blue collar.

The reality is that his teams work hard sometimes when they feel like it, he coaches them to not take retaliatory penalties which makes them look like a bunch of babies.

My personal peeves are the doghousing and the constant line changing, the inability to manage goaltenders, playing favorites (Hello Derek Roy) and stupid sit on leads strategy that's burned them a ton of times. I also didn't think players developed well with him, but that has actually changed a lot recently.

I'm with jame though, I think the biggest problem is that his message is stale to a LOT of those guys. Or he's not hard enough on certain ones that they know what they can and can't get away with by now without getting benched for it.



Or more importantly, the 06-07 Playoffs.
Do you guys actually have any evidence of that? Or are you just jumping there from the fact that the players occasionally suck and that Ruff has been here a while?

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11-05-2011, 05:56 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
do you think that applies to last year? or the Biron years?

I can't say i disagree with you on the second bolded.
The biron era were just bad teams, plain and simple. A jailed owner and a NHL run team. If anything it proved how much those era team relied on Hasek even when alot of people thought the 2001 team. I think Ruff learned alot during those years about coaching we started seeing returns in 2006.

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11-06-2011, 12:30 AM
  #88
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I was impressed by Ruff's self-criticism that he messed with his lines too much a couple of games ago and how he took blame for tampering unnecessarily. He's made a few adjustments since which a couple of players have responded postively to..... i.e.; the emergence of Boyes and PP time, Leino put together with Roy and Stafford - each member of that line is coming on... Returning Adam to the 1st line.

And now, the way he's handling the goaltending situation.

On the other hand, having a powerplay that continually stinks year after year makes me want to send him one of my old powerplay coaching VCR tapes (joking).

Overall, I thought the job he did last year when the team was in the toilet back into the hunt and the playoffs was one of his better achievements.

I think he walks away before he's ever fired. So not only is it too early.... it simply ain't happening.

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11-06-2011, 03:51 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
I was impressed by Ruff's self-criticism that he messed with his lines too much a couple of games ago and how he took blame for tampering unnecessarily. He's made a few adjustments since which a couple of players have responded postively to..... i.e.; the emergence of Boyes and PP time, Leino put together with Roy and Stafford - each member of that line is coming on... Returning Adam to the 1st line.

And now, the way he's handling the goaltending situation.

On the other hand, having a powerplay that continually stinks year after year makes me want to send him one of my old powerplay coaching VCR tapes (joking).

Overall, I thought the job he did last year when the team was in the toilet back into the hunt and the playoffs was one of his better achievements.

I think he walks away before he's ever fired. So not only is it too early.... it simply ain't happening.
Last year they were 9th
2009-10 17th
2008-9 7th
2007-8 14th
2006-7 17th
2005-6 3rd

That seems pretty respectable.

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11-06-2011, 07:35 AM
  #90
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doh! i should read all the messages before responding!

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11-06-2011, 08:02 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by sba View Post
If you mean from the fanbase, it's because of the myth that he coaches a hardnosed style of game because he talks and acts all gruff most of the time. He's a perfect blue-collar guy, and Buffalo loves it some blue collar.
Good post.

It's also an "urban legend" that he "beat up" Billy Smith.

Ruff is a fascinating case study in fan relations. If he's not a popular former Sabre, no way the fans support him this long. But it goes beyond that -- Ruff made himself into a "Buffalo guy." And as he's admitted over the years, he's gotten really lucky.

Just when he's on the ropes, a middle-aged Sabre jock sniffer buys the team. Ruff keeps falling in it!

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11-06-2011, 08:24 AM
  #92
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Good post.

It's also an "urban legend" that he "beat up" Billy Smith.

Ruff is a fascinating case study in fan relations. If he's not a popular former Sabre, no way the fans support him this long. But it goes beyond that -- Ruff made himself into a "Buffalo guy." And as he's admitted over the years, he's gotten really lucky.

Just when he's on the ropes, a middle-aged Sabre jock sniffer buys the team. Ruff keeps falling in it!
Alright! "Middle-aged Sabre jock sniffer" goes real well with all the "pegulaville" this and "hockey heaven" that.

Somebody send this to Bucky. It's time to reinvent this narrative.

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11-06-2011, 08:51 AM
  #93
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Alright! "Middle-aged Sabre jock sniffer" goes real well with all the "pegulaville" this and "hockey heaven" that.

Somebody send this to Bucky. It's time to reinvent this narrative.
It's part of the narrative.

Would you deny he's middle-aged?

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11-06-2011, 08:56 AM
  #94
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When your coach wins at a superb rate (56%); frequently makes the playoffs and wins the majority of his playoff games that's prima facia evidence against firing him.
56% win percentage is superb?! I'd call that pretty average, if you ask me. Also, more than HALF the teams in the league make the playoffs. Ergo, if you play slightly better than .500 hockey, you're in! This is exactly what the Sabres have done year after year, in most cases - sneaking in as a 6, 7, 8 seed. Usually, they get bounced in the first round like most mediocre low seeds typically do. Hooray for mediocrity!

Unless you still use the Golisano era of measurement of "success" - making the playoffs to get a few extra home games (and cash), then Ruff is really not much more than an average coach. In a way, he's a lot like Ryan Miller. A bit better than average, but with a season or two statistical outliers that inflate their respective worth drastically.

Sabres fans have a habit of over valuing the players on the roster in comparison to other teams. Most teams are way more stacked on offense, even with this year's team. As with teams years past, for true value, Sabres players would be shuffled down one line from where they are on the Sabres roster, with the exception of Vanek.

In the same way, the coach and GM are held too highly. Obviously they are head coach/GM material but let's be honest, they're not exactly at the head of the class or anything.

Tl;dr let's get on with the growing pains of breaking out of a culture of mediocrity already. Pegula's done his part as owner...

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11-06-2011, 10:02 AM
  #95
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56% win percentage is superb?! I'd call that pretty average, if you ask me. Also, more than HALF the teams in the league make the playoffs. Ergo, if you play slightly better than .500 hockey, you're in! This is exactly what the Sabres have done year after year, in most cases - sneaking in as a 6, 7, 8 seed. Usually, they get bounced in the first round like most mediocre low seeds typically do. Hooray for mediocrity!

Unless you still use the Golisano era of measurement of "success" - making the playoffs to get a few extra home games (and cash), then Ruff is really not much more than an average coach. In a way, he's a lot like Ryan Miller. A bit better than average, but with a season or two statistical outliers that inflate their respective worth drastically.

Sabres fans have a habit of over valuing the players on the roster in comparison to other teams. Most teams are way more stacked on offense, even with this year's team. As with teams years past, for true value, Sabres players would be shuffled down one line from where they are on the Sabres roster, with the exception of Vanek.

In the same way, the coach and GM are held too highly. Obviously they are head coach/GM material but let's be honest, they're not exactly at the head of the class or anything.

Tl;dr let's get on with the growing pains of breaking out of a culture of mediocrity already. Pegula's done his part as owner...
They have been bounced in the first round 3 out 8 times. If that's your version of usually you need some time with a dictionary. The Sabres during the Ruff ear have won 10 play off series and lost 8.

Actually his statistics have been destroyed by the time the NHL operated the Sabres during their receivership. In the East only the Devil have done better since the lockout. The Coaches with better records are primarily in the West where the difference between the haves and have nots seems wider. Claude Julian and Bruce Boudreau being the most successful Eastern coaches during their short tenures.

The Sabres rather pitiful scoring since the lockout:
2005-6 3rd in East 5th Overall
2006-7 1st in East 1st Overall
2007-8 3rd in East 4th Overall
2008-9 5th in East 9th Overall
2009-10 4th in East 8th Overall
2010-11 4th in East 9th Overall

Is the M.O. here just to spout stuff off until someone takes the time to look at the numbers? Sabres fans are supposed to be knowledgeable right? I expect this from the Bruins come lately types where I live (so many brand new Luicic shirts).


Last edited by Gnuguy: 11-06-2011 at 10:16 AM. Reason: added scoring information
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11-06-2011, 10:08 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
56% win percentage is superb?! I'd call that pretty average, if you ask me.
Scotty Bowman's career win percentage is 58.2%

Not saying Ruff's a better coach, but percentage-wise most win percentages look pretty mediocre.

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11-06-2011, 10:11 AM
  #97
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Scotty Bowman's career win percentage is 58.2%

Not saying Ruff's a better coach, but percentage-wise most win percentages look pretty mediocre.
This. If you think about it, anything in the upper 50 percentiles is pretty good. What's a good season in the NHL? 100 points or more? That's 40+ wins plus some OT points in most cases, which, guess what -- is a bit over 500.

Ragging on Ruff is fine, do it for his coaching methods, his personality, sure, I can buy those kind of opinions. But laughing at a very good win % over a coaching career as long as his? Pretty silly.

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11-07-2011, 01:03 PM
  #98
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What people often seem to forget, is the tremendous increase in competition in the NHL. In the original six era, the entire league consisted of 6 teams (obviously). This means that your competition was a whopping 5 teams, giving your team a (purely) statistical 1 in 6 chance of of winning the cup. Our man Lindy would then have about two cups under his belt if cups were spread out evenly. Nowadays he would have to keep it up for another 16 seasons after this one to be sure of seeing his name on the main silverware. The teams in the league today should expect to win once every 30 years, not exactly a sure bet.

This argument, in my book anyway, is also valid when discussing the careers of players. Compering the rings of yesterdays players with the modern day equivalent, is unfair considering the competition. It is a very distintct possibility that even great players hang up their skates without seeing their names on Lord Stanley's mug. Yes, great players should carry their teams to glory, but there are many great players, even more teams and after all, this is a team sport...

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11-07-2011, 01:59 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Gnuguy View Post
They have been bounced in the first round 3 out 8 times. If that's your version of usually you need some time with a dictionary. The Sabres during the Ruff ear have won 10 play off series and lost 8.

Actually his statistics have been destroyed by the time the NHL operated the Sabres during their receivership. In the East only the Devil have done better since the lockout. The Coaches with better records are primarily in the West where the difference between the haves and have nots seems wider. Claude Julian and Bruce Boudreau being the most successful Eastern coaches during their short tenures.

The Sabres rather pitiful scoring since the lockout:
2005-6 3rd in East 5th Overall
2006-7 1st in East 1st Overall
2007-8 3rd in East 4th Overall
2008-9 5th in East 9th Overall
2009-10 4th in East 8th Overall
2010-11 4th in East 9th Overall

Is the M.O. here just to spout stuff off until someone takes the time to look at the numbers? Sabres fans are supposed to be knowledgeable right? I expect this from the Bruins come lately types where I live (so many brand new Luicic shirts).
With all them #s and good scoring years how many times have they won a CUP?

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11-07-2011, 02:23 PM
  #100
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I can't believe that people continue to use Afinogenov as an example of Ruff's apparent bad coaching. Afinogenov wasn't a good player and wasn't ever going to be a good player.

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