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Is it too early to say we need a new coach?

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Old
12-12-2011, 01:01 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
Oh it does? Whats Gaustad supposed to say... Lindy told us not to retaliate? Yea ok. That'll happen. Just look back at Lindy's actions since that Drury incident. Never once has he stuck up for a player with actions like he did with Drury. Nor have any players really. That's a direct reflection on Lindy. He always says let the league handle it, so that message has clearly been passed on to the players. Which I have a serious problem with because I've heard that is NOT how he used to play.
That flies in the face with what Lindy has said on the record.

He has said time and time again that there are times that call for retribution and times that call for taking the PP and moving on.

It was obvious that Lindy was not happy with the response to the Lucic hit and that he was fine with only getting a 1 minute PP on the Tootoo hit due to the reaction by Gaustad et al.

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I didn't say that one has a bigger hand than the other. I just said they are both responsible. Which is true.
You tried to say that I said that Lindy had no input.

I never said that.

I just said that Darcy had more input than Lindy. Not that Lindy had 0 input.

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Why didn't you comment on Kaleta being a 4th line skater instead of a pest anymore? Anytime Thomas Vanek takes dumber penalties than a "pest" on your team; there's a problem.
I find it interesting that many want to crack on Lindy being too hard on Vanek and you say that he isn't hard enough on Vanek.

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12-12-2011, 01:17 PM
  #202
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That flies in the face with what Lindy has said on the record.

He has said time and time again that there are times that call for retribution and times that call for taking the PP and moving on.

It was obvious that Lindy was not happy with the response to the Lucic hit and that he was fine with only getting a 1 minute PP on the Tootoo hit due to the reaction by Gaustad et al.



You tried to say that I said that Lindy had no input.

I never said that.

I just said that Darcy had more input than Lindy. Not that Lindy had 0 input.



I find it interesting that many want to crack on Lindy being too hard on Vanek and you say that he isn't hard enough on Vanek.
Are you a lawyer? You sure love word games. Instead of answering my questions, you pick apart words and make up your own judgements and or questions. Quite fascinating really. Hopefully you can make a career of it.

Lindy was NOT fine with a 1 minute PP on the Tootoo hit. That's part of the "joke." He thought it was a joke that his team stood up and he only got a 1 minute PP out of it because of the initial hit.

I said Lindy and Darcy are responsible for the roster, you said that Darcy is more responsible than Lindy. I don't care who is responsible or more responsible, they both are responsible for this roster and how this team plays. If not for half input on roster; there's plenty of other things that Lindy sucks at and has for years. IMO both of their times are up.

Never said anything about Ruff being hard or not hard on Vanek. I was just stating that Vanek takes dumber penaltes than Kaleta and that is a problem. A Kaleta type player should have a lot of penalties. Some dumb some not. Vanek takes dumber penalties than Kaleta does and that's an issue due to the type of game Kaleta plays now; which is squarely on the shoulders of Ruff for pussifying Kaleta.


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12-12-2011, 01:24 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
Are you a lawyer? You sure love word games. Instead of answering my questions, you pick apart words and make up your own judgements and or questions. Quite fascinating really. Hopefully you can make a career of it.
Way to make it personal.....



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Lindy was NOT fine with a 1 minute PP on the Tootoo hit. That's part of the "joke." He thought it was a joke that his team stood up and he only got a 1 minute PP out of it.
Yeah, he was upset at the refs for their call. He didn't rip Gaustad for jumping in and costing them the PP time.

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I said Lindy and Darcy are responsible for the roster, you said that Darcy is more responsible than Lindy. I don't care who is responsible or more responsible, they both are responsible for this roster and how this team plays. If not for half input on roster; there's plenty of other things that Lindy sucks at and has for years. IMO both of their times are up.
You may not care. But, it was my take on the situation.

I'd have no problem had Pegula replaced both Regier and Ruff last off season.

But, it doesn't appear that he'll do that anytime soon.

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12-12-2011, 01:31 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Way to make it personal.....

Wasn't trying to make it personal, just the first thing that popped into my head after reading all of your responses.

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Yeah, he was upset at the refs for their call. He didn't rip Gaustad for jumping in and costing them the PP time.
Yea because he knew how much crap he got from everyone in the league for not sticking up for his team. Every hockey writer who discussed the situation laughed at the Sabres for not sticking up for Miller.

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You may not care. But, it was my take on the situation.

I'd have no problem had Pegula replaced both Regier and Ruff last off season.

But, it doesn't appear that he'll do that anytime soon.
Me either and I know they aren't going anywhere, that's why I'm not all up on Pegula anymore. It was a fun few weeks but its time for business and keeping Darcy and Lindy on board is not going to complete his 3 year or under cup vision. Their take on what players it takes to win a cup don't cut it.

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12-12-2011, 02:20 PM
  #205
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Well in 6 years, after two "3-year vision plans" have come and gone, and Ruff and Regier are still here, I think we'll all look back and realize that Pegula & co were just a bunch of homer-owners that didn't have what it takes to run an organization; one that doesn't want to be the brunt of the league. Upgrading facilities isn't going to bring any new players when the reputation of the Sabres is completely mangled. Buffalo (the city) doesn't have the size, the culture (though I would argue it has quite a bit for a city of its size) to compete with places like Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Toronto.

I'm trying to be optimistic about Pegula, but I see no evidence of actually taking the team and making big changes. A few signings that haven't panned out all that great isn't enough clearly. It will take a lot to change the perception of this team and organization to really bring in incredible talent. That starts with restructuring and finally giving the **** up on Regier/Ruff; they're busts, and they've had enough chances to win. They had some amazing players come in early on, and one of the best goaltenders in the game.

/rant because I want to try and stay positive but this whole win 1, lose 1 is getting old.

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12-12-2011, 04:49 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by indigoo View Post
Well in 6 years, after two "3-year vision plans" have come and gone, and Ruff and Regier are still here, I think we'll all look back and realize that Pegula & co were just a bunch of homer-owners that didn't have what it takes to run an organization; one that doesn't want to be the brunt of the league. Upgrading facilities isn't going to bring any new players when the reputation of the Sabres is completely mangled. Buffalo (the city) doesn't have the size, the culture (though I would argue it has quite a bit for a city of its size) to compete with places like Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Toronto.

I'm trying to be optimistic about Pegula, but I see no evidence of actually taking the team and making big changes. A few signings that haven't panned out all that great isn't enough clearly. It will take a lot to change the perception of this team and organization to really bring in incredible talent. That starts with restructuring and finally giving the **** up on Regier/Ruff; they're busts, and they've had enough chances to win. They had some amazing players come in early on, and one of the best goaltenders in the game.

/rant because I want to try and stay positive but this whole win 1, lose 1 is getting old.
Well said.

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12-12-2011, 05:54 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by indigoo View Post
Well in 6 years, after two "3-year vision plans" have come and gone, and Ruff and Regier are still here, I think we'll all look back and realize that Pegula & co were just a bunch of homer-owners that didn't have what it takes to run an organization; one that doesn't want to be the brunt of the league. Upgrading facilities isn't going to bring any new players when the reputation of the Sabres is completely mangled. Buffalo (the city) doesn't have the size, the culture (though I would argue it has quite a bit for a city of its size) to compete with places like Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Toronto.

I'm trying to be optimistic about Pegula, but I see no evidence of actually taking the team and making big changes. A few signings that haven't panned out all that great isn't enough clearly. It will take a lot to change the perception of this team and organization to really bring in incredible talent. That starts with restructuring and finally giving the **** up on Regier/Ruff; they're busts, and they've had enough chances to win. They had some amazing players come in early on, and one of the best goaltenders in the game.

/rant because I want to try and stay positive but this whole win 1, lose 1 is getting old.
You don't have a lot of patience, do you? He said it's a 3-year plan, and he's been in for less than a year. In that time, he went out and made some big splashes in the FA market and trades, which they never would have done under Golisano. He's also dumped a bunch of money into locker room and arena improvements, etc, and alumni relations, all in an effort to make Buffalo a desirable hockey town. Meanwhile, they have had a ridiculous number of injuries and are still sitting in a playoff spot. Just because you don't like the coach doesn't mean Pegula is a phony.

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12-12-2011, 06:35 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by indigoo View Post
Well in 6 years, after two "3-year vision plans" have come and gone, and Ruff and Regier are still here, I think we'll all look back and realize that Pegula & co were just a bunch of homer-owners that didn't have what it takes to run an organization; one that doesn't want to be the brunt of the league. Upgrading facilities isn't going to bring any new players when the reputation of the Sabres is completely mangled. Buffalo (the city) doesn't have the size, the culture (though I would argue it has quite a bit for a city of its size) to compete with places like Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Toronto.

I'm trying to be optimistic about Pegula, but I see no evidence of actually taking the team and making big changes. A few signings that haven't panned out all that great isn't enough clearly. It will take a lot to change the perception of this team and organization to really bring in incredible talent. That starts with restructuring and finally giving the **** up on Regier/Ruff; they're busts, and they've had enough chances to win. They had some amazing players come in early on, and one of the best goaltenders in the game.

/rant because I want to try and stay positive but this whole win 1, lose 1 is getting old.
They got the best defenseman and the second best forward on the free agent market. I'm not exactly sure what you want. The best forward, I suppose.

Both Leino and Erhoff had all sorts of options and picked Buffalo. Money talks.

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12-12-2011, 06:54 PM
  #209
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They got the best defenseman and the second best forward on the free agent market. I'm not exactly sure what you want. The best forward, I suppose.

Both Leino and Erhoff had all sorts of options and picked Buffalo. Money talks.
Leino the 2nd best UFA Forward?!?

I agree with Ehrhoff but Leino is terrible and a big mistake.

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12-12-2011, 07:03 PM
  #210
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Leino the 2nd best UFA Forward?!?

I agree with Ehrhoff but Leino is terrible and a big mistake.
Who do you think the second best UFA forward was? Tim Connolly? Am I missing someone?

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12-12-2011, 07:12 PM
  #211
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Leino the 2nd best UFA Forward?!?

I agree with Ehrhoff but Leino is terrible and a big mistake.
"4.5 is the salary that all the top forwards have gotten his FA period and Leino scored more then all of the other ones.The Sabres offense was already top 10 this past season, and adding Ehrhoff and Leino will help it even more.

Not to mention Robyn Regehr on defense to help his Vezina winning goalie and Calder winning franchise d-man"

You sure changed your mind quick.

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12-12-2011, 07:15 PM
  #212
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"4.5 is the salary that all the top forwards have gotten his FA period and Leino scored more then all of the other ones.The Sabres offense was already top 10 this past season, and adding Ehrhoff and Leino will help it even more.

Not to mention Robyn Regehr on defense to help his Vezina winning goalie and Calder winning franchise d-man"

You sure changed your mind quick.


Served. Leino's coming around, too.

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12-12-2011, 07:21 PM
  #213
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People need to lay of ownership. Man, what more could this guy do other than buy a replica Stanley Cup and present it to our team at the end of every year?

The guy is in it to win. If you can't see that you are just a bitter Buffalo sports fan.

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12-12-2011, 07:39 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
"4.5 is the salary that all the top forwards have gotten his FA period and Leino scored more then all of the other ones.The Sabres offense was already top 10 this past season, and adding Ehrhoff and Leino will help it even more.

Not to mention Robyn Regehr on defense to help his Vezina winning goalie and Calder winning franchise d-man"

You sure changed your mind quick.
Yeah defending my team on the main board before the season really showed me, I guess no one is allowed to change opinions, I thought Leino would have shown something and he hasn't and I have the right to voice my opinion after 30 games that he sucks, btw everything else I said was true

Every forward UFA sans Richards made 4.5, that Ehrhoff would help (he has) , that Regehr would help ( he has , our best dman by far) and that our offense was top 10. There were a small minority prior to the season who were right that the Leino experiment would fail, I guess I shouldn't have drank the Pegula koolaid with Leino.

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12-12-2011, 07:42 PM
  #215
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Yeah defending my team on the main board before the season really showed me, I guess no one is allowed to change opinions, I thought Leino would have shown something and he hasn't and I have the right to voice my opinion after 30 games that he sucks, btw everything else I said was true

Every forward UFA sans Richards made 4.5, that Ehrhoff would help (he has) , that Regehr would help ( he has , our best dman by far) and that our offense was top 10. There were a small minority prior to the season who were right that the Leino experiment would fail, I guess I shouldn't have drank the Pegula koolaid with Leino.
And Leino was the 2nd best UFA forward at the time.

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12-12-2011, 07:45 PM
  #216
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You don't have a lot of patience, do you? He said it's a 3-year plan, and he's been in for less than a year. In that time, he went out and made some big splashes in the FA market and trades, which they never would have done under Golisano. He's also dumped a bunch of money into locker room and arena improvements, etc, and alumni relations, all in an effort to make Buffalo a desirable hockey town. Meanwhile, they have had a ridiculous number of injuries and are still sitting in a playoff spot. Just because you don't like the coach doesn't mean Pegula is a phony.
I'm not trying to say Pegula is a phony, and he's doing a lot of great things for the organization right now. I would just hate for them to be in vain. He did manage to get some great signings, and Ehrhoff is improving and Leino has been playing hard. It is too early to say how things will end up, but some of the issues directly related to the team aren't new. I just want to see a team that plays like they want to win the cup every night. All I was trying to say was just because he did those things, there seems to be a reputation around the league with Buffalo. I don't want the team to be the joke of the league.

Pegula is the guy, I believe it. Right now though, Regier/Ruff I have doubts about. Maybe I was a bit harsh in my post, but I would hate to see it end up being the case.

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12-12-2011, 08:36 PM
  #217
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I'm not trying to say Pegula is a phony, and he's doing a lot of great things for the organization right now. I would just hate for them to be in vain. He did manage to get some great signings, and Ehrhoff is improving and Leino has been playing hard. It is too early to say how things will end up, but some of the issues directly related to the team aren't new. I just want to see a team that plays like they want to win the cup every night. All I was trying to say was just because he did those things, there seems to be a reputation around the league with Buffalo. I don't want the team to be the joke of the league.

Pegula is the guy, I believe it. Right now though, Regier/Ruff I have doubts about. Maybe I was a bit harsh in my post, but I would hate to see it end up being the case.
I don't understand this part of your argument at all. It seems like by spending lots of money on UFA's plus with a respected guy like Regher waiving his NTC to come here, Buffalo has gone from being a laughing stock to a respected destination for players, thanks to Pegula. Not the other way around.

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12-12-2011, 09:13 PM
  #218
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They got the best defenseman and the second best forward on the free agent market. I'm not exactly sure what you want. The best forward, I suppose.

Both Leino and Erhoff had all sorts of options and picked Buffalo. Money talks.
Yea money talks but unfortunately unless Darcy/Lindy grow a pair and ship out some overpaid bums then we won't be in a position to spend spend spend next year.

Also, just because you have money doent mean anything unless you use it wisely (cap wise).

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12-12-2011, 09:16 PM
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We're into Ruff's 13th season.

Too early to question if we need a new head coach? We're at least a few years late. Some would argue 4 years behind the same bench without a championship is enough.

That's been the case for over 20 years. Every single Stanley Cup winning head coach for the last 20+ years have won it with in their first 4 years with an organization.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced we've seen Ruff's ceiling as a head coach in Buffalo. He had his chances with the greatest goaltender of all time. He's had a chance with the highest scoring team in hockey for a season (correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 2006-7 Sabres exactly that?). He also had a chance with a league coming out of a lockout, drastically changing its rules to award skill and speed, and was handed a near perfect roster that unfortunately became too injured by the end of it all.

He's had his fair share of chances. His teams don't get it done. His best doesn't get it done. 13+ years is enough of a sample size of evidence to come to that conclusion. Even if you took away the bankruptcy years....It's still a decade.

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12-12-2011, 09:25 PM
  #220
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Yea money talks but unfortunately unless Darcy/Lindy grow a pair and ship out some overpaid bums then we won't be in a position to spend spend spend next year.

Also, just because you have money doent mean anything unless you use it wisely (cap wise).
I was responding to the other guy's argument that no players ever want to come here.

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12-12-2011, 09:48 PM
  #221
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We're into Ruff's 13th season.

Too early to question if we need a new head coach? We're at least a few years late. Some would argue 4 years behind the same bench without a championship is enough.

That's been the case for over 20 years. Every single Stanley Cup winning head coach for the last 20+ years have won it with in their first 4 years with an organization.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced we've seen Ruff's ceiling as a head coach in Buffalo. He had his chances with the greatest goaltender of all time. He's had a chance with the highest scoring team in hockey for a season (correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 2006-7 Sabres exactly that?). He also had a chance with a league coming out of a lockout, drastically changing its rules to award skill and speed, and was handed a near perfect roster that unfortunately became too injured by the end of it all.

He's had his fair share of chances. His teams don't get it done. His best doesn't get it done. 13+ years is enough of a sample size of evidence to come to that conclusion. Even if you took away the bankruptcy years....It's still a decade.
Have you looked at the roster he had in 1999? He had Hasek and, uh, a bunch of other guys. Seriously, though, they had 1 player (Satan) who cracked 60 points that year. They lost in 6 games in 3OT (on a bogus call) to a team with Hull, Modano, Nieuwendyk, Belfour, etc. They did ok, considering.

In 2006, I'm confident they would have won the Cup if they hadn't lost almost their entire D and not had any organizational depth.

Between the ownership issues, and roster issues, I think Ruff has done great.

You can still legitimately criticize him based on recent decisions, but don't tell me he should be fired because he hasn't won a Cup.

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12-12-2011, 11:56 PM
  #222
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There's plenty of coaches who've WON Cups and have gotten fired within a couple of years because their teams have tuned them out. Laviolette is the first one that comes to mind.

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12-13-2011, 01:00 AM
  #223
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I don't understand this part of your argument at all. It seems like by spending lots of money on UFA's plus with a respected guy like Regher waiving his NTC to come here, Buffalo has gone from being a laughing stock to a respected destination for players, thanks to Pegula. Not the other way around.
This is coming off a season where the Sabres turned it on, and were one of the top teams in the league. Couple that with the ownership change, and the BUCKET LOADS of CASH we spent to get these guys here; yes, it looks appealing at the time. The inconsistency, the whole situation surrounding the Lucic/Miller incident, and the team just not being as good as many expected, things very well could be different going forward.

As pointed out by someone else, money talks. Thing is, other organizations will put money out there as well. I hope I'm wrong, I really do.

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12-13-2011, 01:31 AM
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As a plus in Lindy's column relating to that post, I think he is a respected coach by other players around the league and is probably a factor in them wanting to come here.

Doesn't save his job in my mind, but I think it's a valid point.

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12-13-2011, 06:52 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by indigoo View Post
This is coming off a season where the Sabres turned it on, and were one of the top teams in the league. Couple that with the ownership change, and the BUCKET LOADS of CASH we spent to get these guys here; yes, it looks appealing at the time. The inconsistency, the whole situation surrounding the Lucic/Miller incident, and the team just not being as good as many expected, things very well could be different going forward.

As pointed out by someone else, money talks. Thing is, other organizations will put money out there as well. I hope I'm wrong, I really do.
I was the one who said that money talks. The point is players will generally go to whoever is offering them the most money. Inconsistency in December doesn't have much bearing on who signs where in July. Other teams were putting money out there this past summer and some of the top guys still signed in Buffalo. I don't really understand why we're talking about UFA's in a thread about Ruff anyways, so I'll stop now.

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