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Old
11-03-2011, 04:14 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You don't live there, so I think you're very much oversimplifying their attendance issues by passing it off as "they're not entertained because the team doesn't score enough goals." And I can tell you from experience, they are actually pretty entertaining to watch. They're a likeable team, and I don't see many teams, if any, work harder than they do on a nightly basis.

Derek Roy is not going to bring them in an additional $5m in net revenues. It's just not going to happen.
You're right, I'm not intimately familiar with the hockey atmosphere of Phoenix. But, I have seen many empty seats on my TV, and I have read the rumors of the team moving, and I did pull up some pretty bad O numbers the past 3 years (24,23,14). So, I added that all up and formed an opinion. I bet if I dug a little deeper I would find out that their attendance figures are not nearly good enough to sustain the franchise in the long run. Maybe if they had more dynmaic players they would draw more? Who knows, but it seems to be a desperate situation.

They don't need to win over great hockey fans like you and your relatives, you alrready get it and you understand good hockey. You don't need all the bells and whistles to enjoy the game. NEW FANS do. And that, to me, is what the Yotes need to survive. What they REALLY need is a flashy young rookie, like the next Crosby or Ovechkin. I bet they would pack that place with a marque player.

If they picked up Roy at the deadline, they would only be on the hook for his 5.5 million contract year, and maybe another 400k for the rest of this season, so 5.9 million or about 3 million more than they would be on the hook for Hanzal next year.

If one person is worth around $100 per game (tix, food, etc.), then it would take 2,439 NEW FANS to earn the franchise 10 million in gross revenue. I don't think Roy alone could draw 2,000+ fans into the arena EVERY game, on average, but he would only need too peek the interests of 732 more fans per night to make up the difference in salary.

It's not a massive financial risk, and the move could help make a lot more money if Roy really plays and produces like a 70 point center and signs there long term.


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11-03-2011, 04:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by 1972sabres View Post
so you would trade roy for gaustad?
if Gausted skated faster, I probably would. The only thing keeping him from being as good or better than a Hanzal is his wheels. But they are still plenty fast enough to make him a solid checking line center, which would mean Hanzal would be the #2 center.

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11-03-2011, 05:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
if Gausted skated faster, I probably would. The only thing keeping him from being as good or better than a Hanzal is his wheels. But they are still plenty fast enough to make him a solid checking line center, which would mean Hanzal would be the #2 center.
I don't like Hanzal centering our 2nd line. I get the feeling he's operating more at his upper limits point wise at the moment.

Hanzal would be a great 3rd line center, but as you've adequately pointed out, we've got Gaustad. Don't see much sense in making a trade for him.

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11-03-2011, 05:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
if Gausted skated faster, I probably would. The only thing keeping him from being as good or better than a Hanzal is his wheels. But they are still plenty fast enough to make him a solid checking line center, which would mean Hanzal would be the #2 center.
Yeah he's pretty damn slow, imagine if he had some foot speed, would be a monster...

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11-03-2011, 05:30 PM
  #30
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Is Derek Roy regressing, I am just trying to understand why Sabre fans would want to move this kid.

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11-03-2011, 05:34 PM
  #31
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The massive under-rating of one of our consistently best players and absurd fetishizing of tall players continues. I can't even argue with you guys any more. If you think Derek Roy is one of the problems with this team, we have nothing to talk about.

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11-03-2011, 05:40 PM
  #32
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Shift focus from PHX to CBJ and Brassard. Having a brutal year to date, practiced with the fourth line today, value probably lower than it ever will be. Potential for stardom if he ever puts it together. There's your big center, and we could probably keep Roy in the process

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11-03-2011, 06:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Shift focus from PHX to CBJ and Brassard. Having a brutal year to date, practiced with the fourth line today, value probably lower than it ever will be. Potential for stardom if he ever puts it together. There's your big center, and we could probably keep Roy in the process
Agreed. Brassard is definitely not netting Roy right now. Most CBJ fans want a 20 min/night defenseman in return. I'd dangle Leopold and maybe a 3rd/4th for him, and then try to flip Boyes in exchange for a 3rd pairing defenseman or a pick to later acquire said defenseman. Problem is, neither Buffalo nor CBJ have any cap room to speak of; even the $200k difference in cap hit causes a problem for us right now.

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11-03-2011, 06:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jtmoney67 View Post
Is Derek Roy regressing, I am just trying to understand why Sabre fans would want to move this kid.

true sabres fans don't

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11-03-2011, 06:44 PM
  #35
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I don't like Hanzal centering our 2nd line. I get the feeling he's operating more at his upper limits point wise at the moment.

Hanzal would be a great 3rd line center, but as you've adequately pointed out, we've got Gaustad. Don't see much sense in making a trade for him.
If he doesn't work out as the second line center (which I think he would be perfect for with Ennis and Stafford), he could replace Gaustad as the third line center. He makes 3.1 million and would be an upgrade over Goose who figures to get around the same on the open market this summer. So, if the trade is a failure you still improved your 3rd line and freed up 4 million in cap for a new FA center. Not good, but not a bad parting gift either. He's only 24 and locked up for the next 3 years.

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11-03-2011, 06:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
The massive under-rating of one of our consistently best players and absurd fetishizing of tall players continues. I can't even argue with you guys any more. If you think Derek Roy is one of the problems with this team, we have nothing to talk about.
If I were you, I wouldn't get emotionally attached to ANYBODY on the team. They will trade anybody if it improves the team in some way.

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11-03-2011, 07:46 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
If I were you, I wouldn't get emotionally attached to ANYBODY on the team. They will trade anybody if it improves the team in some way.
This has nothing to do with emotions. Roy is consistently under-valued on this board and has been for years. I'm not going to get into the entire Roy debate, which has consumed about 200 threads over the last few years. People have always proposed trading Roy for people like Stoll on the theory that bigger/harder hitting players are always better, without regard to any other aspects of their play.

Let's just be reality: there are a lot of posters who think Roy is a ***sy because of his old reputation for diving and because of absolutely ridiculous things like pictures of him partying wearing flip flops (which, I repeat, is extremely commonplace in California). Yes, he often tries to do too much and gives the puck away, but I've never believed that was the real gripe against him. I think the truth is that there are a lot of Buffalo fans who pride themselves on being fans of real "blue collar, lunch pail and hardhat" type of players. This is the same phenomenon underlying the Gragnani v. Weber threads. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff and became a Sabres fan during the Ted Nolan/Ray/May/Barnaby/Peca era. But you can't win championships just by hitting and blocking shots. You need dynamic players that can create offense, and you need speed and skill. Roy has those things at a bargain price. It would be insane to trade him for Hanzal.

If someone wants to propose a trade involving Roy that would actually make this team better, I'm all ears. My guess is that it will be almost impossible to do, given our cap situation and his contract.

Also, how many centers are there in the league that have produced the offense that Roy has over the last few years and can play solid hockey in all 3 situations?

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11-03-2011, 07:56 PM
  #38
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I think it's worth reminding people just how consistently productive Roy has been for the Sabres for several years.

2006-07: 63 points in 75 games

2007-08: 81 points in 78 games (Getzlaf and Staal had 82 points, for comparison, and he had more points than Kopitar, Henrik Sedin, Patrick Kane, Mike Richards, etc.)

2008-09: 70 points in 82 games (Kane had 70; Toews had 69; Staal had 75, etc.)

2009-10: 69 points in 80 games (1 point behind Datsyuk, Staal and Lecavalier; tied with Getzlaf; ahead of Toews, Carter, M. Richards, etc.)

2010-11: 35 points in 35 games

Realistically, how can you possibly replace Roy's production? Also, with the exception of last year, he's been remarkably healthy. I've yet to see any half-way realistic trade centered around Roy that makes this team better.

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11-03-2011, 09:29 PM
  #39
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Personally I feel that right now Roy should be kept on the team. Unless there's some bs going on in the locker room that we don't know about that's frustrating the rest of the team, I say if they don't pick it up by the end of the month, trade Boyes and Ennis to Phoenix for Whitney/Langkow and Turris. If it's Langkow, maybe send Hecht instead of Boyes so they get a center back. Either one of those two vets would add a lot to the Sabres. And Turris could develop and if he does work out, you have a replacement for Roy if he's not re-signed or if he's traded.

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11-03-2011, 09:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
If I were you, I wouldn't get emotionally attached to ANYBODY on the team. They will trade anybody if it improves the team in some way.
Based on what?

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11-04-2011, 12:52 AM
  #41
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Trading Roy makes no sense on several different levels. Period.

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11-04-2011, 01:58 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
This has nothing to do with emotions. Roy is consistently under-valued on this board and has been for years. I'm not going to get into the entire Roy debate, which has consumed about 200 threads over the last few years. People have always proposed trading Roy for people like Stoll on the theory that bigger/harder hitting players are always better, without regard to any other aspects of their play.

Let's just be reality: there are a lot of posters who think Roy is a ***sy because of his old reputation for diving and because of absolutely ridiculous things like pictures of him partying wearing flip flops (which, I repeat, is extremely commonplace in California). Yes, he often tries to do too much and gives the puck away, but I've never believed that was the real gripe against him. I think the truth is that there are a lot of Buffalo fans who pride themselves on being fans of real "blue collar, lunch pail and hardhat" type of players. This is the same phenomenon underlying the Gragnani v. Weber threads. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff and became a Sabres fan during the Ted Nolan/Ray/May/Barnaby/Peca era. But you can't win championships just by hitting and blocking shots. You need dynamic players that can create offense, and you need speed and skill. Roy has those things at a bargain price. It would be insane to trade him for Hanzal.

If someone wants to propose a trade involving Roy that would actually make this team better, I'm all ears. My guess is that it will be almost impossible to do, given our cap situation and his contract.

Also, how many centers are there in the league that have produced the offense that Roy has over the last few years and can play solid hockey in all 3 situations?

I love Roy and have no desire to trade him and I also think Grags sucks at the moment. How does that fit into your pigeonholing of posters? Me saying it would be interesting to have 3 big centers is a simple observation not a desire.

Roy repeatedly gets flak from a few posters who loath him and push their disdain at every opportunity. Others pile on when he is struggling or has a bad night. He takes hits in part because posters believe that there is such a thing as a mythical #1 center out there that can cure all that ails a team. Since Roy isn't that center in their minds they frequently propose trading him to either help get that center or to "change up the team dynamic". They don't seem to believe in the reality that well built teams win Cups not a super center. Even Crosby needed Malkin. While Roy is obviously not on their level. He is still a high level center. Most teams would love an all situations 70pt center.

Bringing the Grags debates into this is pretty silly. You're talking about a guy thats not even a NHL regular yet, trying to make the team as the #6 dman and PP specialist at age 24/25. He is basically a slightly better Mancari until he proves otherwise. He is also a redundancy as the 5th of 5 offensive dmen on the roster. Wanting to replace that in the lineup with a tougher player thats focused primarily on defense is not yearning for the days of Ted Nolan or wanting the skill out of the lineup. Its a desire to have 2 instead of 1 defensive dman in the lineup. Not to mention the fact that Weber is the younger of the two and has more NHL games under his belt(coming into this season, 81gms to 15gms) Hardly an unreasonable proposition to want Weber in the lineup over Grags, unlike many of the Roy trade proposals.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-04-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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Old
11-04-2011, 09:32 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
This has nothing to do with emotions. Roy is consistently under-valued on this board and has been for years. I'm not going to get into the entire Roy debate, which has consumed about 200 threads over the last few years. People have always proposed trading Roy for people like Stoll on the theory that bigger/harder hitting players are always better, without regard to any other aspects of their play.

Let's just be reality: there are a lot of posters who think Roy is a ***sy because of his old reputation for diving and because of absolutely ridiculous things like pictures of him partying wearing flip flops (which, I repeat, is extremely commonplace in California). Yes, he often tries to do too much and gives the puck away, but I've never believed that was the real gripe against him. I think the truth is that there are a lot of Buffalo fans who pride themselves on being fans of real "blue collar, lunch pail and hardhat" type of players. This is the same phenomenon underlying the Gragnani v. Weber threads. Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff and became a Sabres fan during the Ted Nolan/Ray/May/Barnaby/Peca era. But you can't win championships just by hitting and blocking shots. You need dynamic players that can create offense, and you need speed and skill. Roy has those things at a bargain price. It would be insane to trade him for Hanzal.

If someone wants to propose a trade involving Roy that would actually make this team better, I'm all ears. My guess is that it will be almost impossible to do, given our cap situation and his contract.

Also, how many centers are there in the league that have produced the offense that Roy has over the last few years and can play solid hockey in all 3 situations?
I'm for whoever is going to make the team better. They have guys like Roy, not as good, but Pomminville, Ennis, Boyes, Stafford, and Leino can all produce on the power play and bring some fast perimeter play just like Roy. I wouldn't move Vanek, Pomminville, or Stafford at this time. So they gotta try and find better fits to the puzzle by trading Roy, Ennis, Leino, and/or Boyes. Nobody wants Leino, Boyes wont bring a big return, and Ennis doesn't have very good trade value. SO the hope is, that you change the look of the team and give your remaining perimeter players better puck support and let them settle into more clearly defined roles.

The team just seems so chaotic to me. It's like coach Ruff is pulling names out of a hat to see who will play where and win and then just adjusting things as the scoreboard dictates. The need more clearly defined roles this year.

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