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There HAS to be something more behind the scenes re: Weber/Gragnani (if Grags plays)

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Old
11-05-2011, 12:13 AM
  #26
ImpressedDAHagent
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
Lets not pretend he didn't luck into that though. He made a good play to keep the puck in, but he didn't see Gerbe at all. He was just trying throw the puck deeper in the zone to cover a line change, but it happened to bounce off of someone and go straight to Gerbe.

True. He admited that in the locker room.

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11-05-2011, 01:01 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
You're crazy. Grags is and will be the better defenseman. However Weber, if he lives up to his potential, is more what Buffalo needs out of their #6.

Right now, I'll take Grags every day of the week.

As to your response to chainshot, teams have to be cheap in some cases. How else can you build a winner when there is a salary cap?
So Weber is more of a 6th man. And you think Grags is and will be better? Grags will be a top-4 guy at some point in his career, and a more serviceable guy than Weber? I don't buy it, agree to disagree.

As to "being cheap," you don't do it at the expense of weakening the team. Forcing Grags to play undeservedly isn't following a "win now at all costs" mode. And if the #6 dman slot is so trivial to some, by are you focusing your "cost cutting" thoughts on the #6?

Win now. Play the better defenseman, yes, but give Weber the same chance Grags was given.

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11-05-2011, 01:52 AM
  #28
ImpressedDAHagent
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I am not sure if either player is at a point where they can decidedly carry a line. Of course it's a combination of what they can do and who they can perform with. Weber has the advantage with his style being more consistent with league play. However Gragnani's skill seems to be more consistent on a shift to shift basis. His passing and skating is of the caliber of other defense men on the team.

Though Weber is more capable of playing in the offensive zone then people think.

I personally find issue with gragnani when his offensive ability is more available during a game then Sekera and Leopold.

I think that gragnani is unique because he has size that he doesn't use. Normally offensive defensemen are small or use their size.


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11-06-2011, 08:21 PM
  #29
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Weber was horrendous on Wednesday. A defensive defensemen shouldn't be so out of position like he consistently was.

Even if Weber was solid on Wednesday, I'd prefer Grags in the lineup. He creates so many chances.

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11-06-2011, 08:39 PM
  #30
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Weber was horrendous on Wednesday. A defensive defensemen shouldn't be so out of position like he consistently was.

Even if Weber was solid on Wednesday, I'd prefer Grags in the lineup. He creates so many chances.
If only they were for the Sabres.

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11-06-2011, 08:45 PM
  #31
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Ruff has never liked Weber. Don't know why. He seems to be always having to earn his stripes.

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11-06-2011, 08:56 PM
  #32
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Weber started off bad but eventually settled into the game and had a good second and third period. I have a few problems with Grags being in the lineup over Weber: (i) the Sabres already have an abundance of offensive defensemen right now—Ehrhoff, Leopold, Sekera, arguably Myers even though he's at least capable of being more of a shut-down type guy. (ii) Gragnani literally does not hit. Ever. 12 games played, 0 hits. Meanwhile, Weber is one of the few people on the team who will stand up for his teammates. (iii) Gragnani can be sent to the minors to improve his game, while Weber's one-way contract means he just sits around every day.

I think Grags has the higher ceiling, but he's not what the Sabres really need right now.

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11-06-2011, 08:56 PM
  #33
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I have a great feeling about Gragnani. I think he's going to settle in now that he's back in the lineup and gotten his nerves out after getting benched once. I can see him putting up great numbers and having a fantastic year. I'm desperately trying to scoop him up in fantasy right now

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11-06-2011, 09:48 PM
  #34
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one of the defensemen is going to be hurt at some point then you will see Weber/Grags on a consistent basis and then make your choice there. i dont see the problem with depth except for the fact that the depth is mediocre

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11-06-2011, 10:05 PM
  #35
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Ruff is racsist against pittsburghers!! son of a ***** racist!

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11-06-2011, 10:09 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
If only they were for the Sabres.
LOL so true sadly.

I'm expecting Lindy to put Weber back in on Tuesday or Friday. The sample size for Weber is far too small. I've seen enough of Gragnani, we have 4 other players who can bring the same thing he does, let's get a more physical presence and make us tougher to play against.

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11-06-2011, 10:10 PM
  #37
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Wait a minute!! We all know Lindy can't stand Europeans..... When he was asked about this situation, he pronounced Mike's name as "Vayber".... We just have to tell Ruff that Weber's not German, and this whole mess will be straightened out.

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11-07-2011, 12:02 AM
  #38
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How did Grags look in the Ottawa game ?

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11-07-2011, 01:51 AM
  #39
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Hmmm... typo there. Group VI. Six. Not four. If Gragnani doesn't play in 80 NHL games combined regular season and playoffs by the end of the season, he becomes a Group VI UFA.

It reminds me of what I would expect of the pre-Pegula Regier methods.

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11-07-2011, 03:45 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Hmmm... typo there. Group VI. Six. Not four. If Gragnani doesn't play in 80 NHL games combined regular season and playoffs by the end of the season, he becomes a Group VI UFA.

It reminds me of what I would expect of the pre-Pegula Regier methods.
This argument doesn't make sense to me. I don't see Ruff accepting this as a reason to play a player over someone he feels is better. Especially since Terry is the owner and we're expecting to win now.

With our defensive depth, what is the point in giving up 80 games to a 7th dman just to keep him? Persson could sit and watch just as well as anyone. We'll be adding Pysyk to the depth we already have and possibly JGL, right? Schiestel, McNabb, Brennan, etc...

I think Ruff just prefers the better skaters, mobile dmen that can also add to the offense. I truly believe it comes down to type of defenseman and not the dman himself. Gragnani and Weber being fairly similar in there development and number of flaws, Gragnani is the player that could possibly add that extra something (offense).

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11-07-2011, 04:10 AM
  #41
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Weber will be the better DEFENSEman.
MAG will be the better OFFENSIVE Defenseman.

I think this team needs more thoughness and stability on the back an and that's what Weber could give us if the coach wouldn't completly destroy his self-confidence.

This is a very, very bad handling by Ruff, imo....

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11-07-2011, 09:58 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
This argument doesn't make sense to me. I don't see Ruff accepting this as a reason to play a player over someone he feels is better. Especially since Terry is the owner and we're expecting to win now.

With our defensive depth, what is the point in giving up 80 games to a 7th dman just to keep him? Persson could sit and watch just as well as anyone. We'll be adding Pysyk to the depth we already have and possibly JGL, right? Schiestel, McNabb, Brennan, etc...

I think Ruff just prefers the better skaters, mobile dmen that can also add to the offense. I truly believe it comes down to type of defenseman and not the dman himself. Gragnani and Weber being fairly similar in there development and number of flaws, Gragnani is the player that could possibly add that extra something (offense).
Like I said, it seems like pre-Pegula asset management to me. Miserly if you will.

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11-07-2011, 10:34 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
This argument doesn't make sense to me. I don't see Ruff accepting this as a reason to play a player over someone he feels is better. Especially since Terry is the owner and we're expecting to win now.

With our defensive depth, what is the point in giving up 80 games to a 7th dman just to keep him? Persson could sit and watch just as well as anyone. We'll be adding Pysyk to the depth we already have and possibly JGL, right? Schiestel, McNabb, Brennan, etc...

I think Ruff just prefers the better skaters, mobile dmen that can also add to the offense. I truly believe it comes down to type of defenseman and not the dman himself. Gragnani and Weber being fairly similar in there development and number of flaws, Gragnani is the player that could possibly add that extra something (offense).
I think your assessment is spot on. I can't imagine Ruff voluntarily making his team worse--especially after preaching the need for a better start than last year--in order to retain Gragnani's rights. Given the relationship between the two, I don't think Darcy would demand that Lindy play Gragnani if Ruff thought Weber gave them a better opportunity to win. I just think Ruff wants his team to play a certain way, and Gragnani's game is more conducive to that style than Weber's.

At worst, I think this is a situation where Ruff believes the whole of Gragnani's skills and the whole of Weber's skills are about equal in terms of utility, and the tie goes to Gragnani because of his contract status. I don't think it's nearly as nefarious as some might believe. (Ruff hates Weber! The Pegulas love Grags!)

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11-07-2011, 11:08 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think your assessment is spot on. I can't imagine Ruff voluntarily making his team worse--especially after preaching the need for a better start than last year--in order to retain Gragnani's rights. Given the relationship between the two, I don't think Darcy would demand that Lindy play Gragnani if Ruff thought Weber gave them a better opportunity to win. I just think Ruff wants his team to play a certain way, and Gragnani's game is more conducive to that style than Weber's.

At worst, I think this is a situation where Ruff believes the whole of Gragnani's skills and the whole of Weber's skills are about equal in terms of utility, and the tie goes to Gragnani because of his contract status. I don't think it's nearly as nefarious as some might believe. (Ruff hates Weber! The Pegulas love Grags!)
I'd agree with this if Weber was given more than one game.

How do we know, after one game, that Gragnani is better suited for this unit than Weber? You can't make that determination based solely on practice IMO either

I said I'd trust the staff with this, and that they obviously have the inside track, but the notion that Weber was pulled after one game has me questioning if alterior factors are indeed in play here... and I don't think that's over-analyzation. Not a single poster has vehemently said that Gragnani has been playing well all season - usually, there's a small-to-medium discrepancy between the fan base, and there isn't one here with regards to Grags' on-ice play.

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11-07-2011, 12:32 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I just think Ruff wants his team to play a certain way, and Gragnani's game is more conducive to that style than Weber's.

At worst, I think this is a situation where Ruff believes the whole of Gragnani's skills and the whole of Weber's skills are about equal in terms of utility, and the tie goes to Gragnani because of his contract status.
Yet, at the same time, Ruff has acknowledged the obvious impact of Regehr and his style of play. Weber has much more of that kind of mindset than MAG so if Ruff thinks MAG's style fits the team better than Weber's, while valuing Regehr, there's a contradiction in his thinking IMO.

I suspect that, with the team struggling overall on offense and Myers, Ehrhoff and Leopold all off to slow starts in terms of helping the offense, Ruff needs every possible option to add to the attack. Who knows - Ruff could replace MAG with Weber once the aforementioned defensemen produce more and the forward group as a whole start scoring more....

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I'd agree with this if Weber was given more than one game.

How do we know, after one game, that Gragnani is better suited for this unit than Weber? You can't make that determination based solely on practice IMO either

I said I'd trust the staff with this, and that they obviously have the inside track, but the notion that Weber was pulled after one game has me questioning if alterior factors are indeed in play here... and I don't think that's over-analyzation. Not a single poster has vehemently said that Gragnani has been playing well all season - usually, there's a small-to-medium discrepancy between the fan base, and there isn't one here with regards to Grags' on-ice play.
In terms of having evidence to go by, it's also illogical - Weber showed what he can do over 58 games last season. Gragnani only played 16 games, counting playoffs last year. Weber's much more of proven commodity at the NHL level IMO than MAG.

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11-07-2011, 03:31 PM
  #46
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Who the hell cares. Both are nothing more than marginal journeyman type players. It wouldn't surprise me if both are gone in 2 years to make room for another big free agent defensemen signing and/or young prospect deserving a chance with the club.

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11-07-2011, 04:03 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Like I said, it seems like pre-Pegula asset management to me. Miserly if you will.
This has nothing to do with saving money and everything to do with keeping the player. Whether or not Gragnani belongs on this team over Weber is up for debate but if Darcy and Lindy have determined he's a better long-term asset, they should do everything possible to get him to RFA status. It's not like the only incentive for keeping Gragnani's contract low is to line Pegula's pockets. A low cap hit helps us build a better team. Why is that miserly? Especially when the difference between Gragnani vs Weber is debatable?

To be clear he needs 80 games total NHL experience to avoid going UFA, so that's 46 more this season. Weber will get his chances and I have to believe if he was clearly ahead of Gragnani he would have stayed in the lineup.

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11-07-2011, 04:18 PM
  #48
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I know it's early, but the decision still bothers me a bit to see Grags in there consistently when he's not doing what they have him in there to do. It's somewhat obvious that he isn't the best defenseman on the team and his specialty is more for his offense. However, the power play hasn't seen any great growth with him on it, so I don't see why Weber hasn't had more of a chance to play. I really like Weber's game and even though he had a rough 1st against the Flyers, I think he's the better option for this team.

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11-07-2011, 04:23 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
This has nothing to do with saving money and everything to do with keeping the player. Whether or not Gragnani belongs on this team over Weber is up for debate but if Darcy and Lindy have determined he's a better long-term asset, they should do everything possible to get him to RFA status. It's not like the only incentive for keeping Gragnani's contract low is to line Pegula's pockets. A low cap hit helps us build a better team. Why is that miserly? Especially when the difference between Gragnani vs Weber is debatable?

To be clear he needs 80 games total NHL experience to avoid going UFA, so that's 46 more this season. Weber will get his chances and I have to believe if he was clearly ahead of Gragnani he would have stayed in the lineup.
Miserly with the asset retention, not miserly with regards to the money. My point isn't about cap or money at all, but with the retention of another year of service. Regier has hoarded his guys in the past, sometimes well passed their sell-by date if you will.

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11-07-2011, 04:36 PM
  #50
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In terms of having evidence to go by, it's also illogical - Weber showed what he can do over 58 games last season. Gragnani only played 16 games, counting playoffs last year. Weber's much more of proven commodity at the NHL level IMO than MAG.
I thought Weber was quietly consistent every game last year. Nothing special was ever brought by him, but he did his job and stayed within himself.

I recall only a handful of "Weber in the Ugly column" GBU's last year. I know someone so nicely brought out negative Weber comments from GBU's last year, but from a personal standpoint, I was very pleased with his <60 GP

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