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Old
10-30-2011, 10:08 PM
  #1
Selanne138
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Fix The Offense

Our offense has been absolutely terrible thus far. The only priority of this offseason was supposed be to fix the depth scoring, and clearly this has not happened. The question is, how do we improve on this? Do we make a trade, or try to juggle the lines, or just wait it out and hope numbers go up?

The Krejci/Marchand for Ryan + Pick was an interesting idea. Would give us great depth throughout the lineup once Blake came back.

We could try moving Ryan around, and try whoever out with the Twins and the Finns. Gordon could use a Top 6 shot and Palmieri is probably ready for a promotion when he is healthy. I dont see Carlyle splitting those pairs up at any point so I think those are set in stone, but the third man changes rapidly.

Or the third option is wait it out, and hope the bottom six will find some scoring. Obviously its only a matter of time until RPG and Teemu turn the chances into goals. But with the guys we have in the bottom six its not a guarantee, so how do we get more goals from there?

I think we go with a combination of the second two. Murray doesnt seem like the kind of GM to make a big move to make an impact so Im thinking we ride it out with what we have and hope we can find enough scoring.

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10-30-2011, 10:11 PM
  #2
duxfan8
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We will not trade Bobby Ryan unless it's for someone better than him, end of story. We do need to make a deal though to pick up a LW. We need one very badly, or we need Palmieri to be able to switch to LW and at least try him out. We're not going to get an instant answer

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10-30-2011, 10:20 PM
  #3
Sean Garrity
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Not gonna happen unless Samueli decides to open the wallet. Simply put, there isn't enough talent with our forwards outside of the top 4. Same story different season, the big 4 up front are going to have the carry the team's offense and Fowler/Vis need to find their offensive games. The PP will be fine.

I'm aware it is only 10 games in to the season, but I can't imagine that the young kids (for example: KP, Holland, Etem) would be doing any worse as the 3rd line this season. The bottom 6 has 9 points, and a combined 2 goals this season.

The one player I am worried about is Ryan. He seems clumsy out there and is not burying his chances and he is getting quite a few. I'm sure he will start burying those and the team will get a few more bounces which will inevitably (more like hopefully) lead to more goals.

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10-30-2011, 10:22 PM
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Sojourn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxfan8 View Post
We will not trade Bobby Ryan unless it's for someone better than him, end of story. We do need to make a deal though to pick up a LW. We need one very badly, or we need Palmieri to be able to switch to LW and at least try him out. We're not going to get an instant answer
You can say that, but it doesn't make it true. Murray could see it as an overall improvement if he gets two top six players(including a real good center). Hell, it could actually be an improvement, seeing as how depth is such an issue. The Ducks are really top heavy upfront, and that means if the RPG line isn't scoring we're in trouble.

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10-30-2011, 10:24 PM
  #5
Jesus Teemu
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First of all, I doubt anything happens soon. Like you said, BM isn't that type of GM and I'm sure he'll give it more time. Although, I would disagree with that approach because our 2nd & 3rd lines will never score a lot of goals IMO.

A LW to play with Perry and Getzlaf or Teemu is obviously a tremendous need in the short term. You could argue that the player wouldn't be needed beyond this year because prospects could fill in, so it's not a slam dunk IMO. Bringing in a legit 2nd line centre would be seen as a more long term approach IMO, and I can't state how much we need one because Koivu isn't cutting it as much as I like and respect him.

I believe BM is a smart enough guy that he knows the Ducks have glaring needs, but he doesn't permission to go over the imposed cap. So while there are 2 glaring needs, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happens. I would just expect maybe Palmieri to be called up soon. And obviously Getzlaf, Perry, Teemu etc. will pick it up, at least says the law of averages

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10-30-2011, 10:54 PM
  #6
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My idea.

Put RPG Back together. They were scoring.

Reset the bottom 6 to where they were. They had good chemistry, and Macenauer and McMillan actually made the 4th line dangerous.

Deal with the 2nd line not scoring and play whoever is left there.

All the swapping players around has done is neuter the top line and destroy the chemistry and confidence of the younger players in the bottom 6. I'll take the disciplined defensive play and good team effort any day over what's happened once the random line generator has come into play.

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10-30-2011, 11:13 PM
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There is no reason they shouldn't be scoring. Too much talent not to. They'll eventually get their act together.

In other words, keep your finger off the trigger or panic button or what ever you use.

I would reset the lines to before Carlyle started to panic, though.

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10-31-2011, 12:15 AM
  #8
Degenerate191
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The original lines just need to be put back together, and stick Beleskey in there with Teemu/Saku. I remember Carlyle moving Ryan off the top line during away games last season, and it didn't work that well then, and I think we have a better bottom 6 (slightly anyways) than last year. Gordon-Cogliano-Smith-Pelley was looking really good the first few games, get them back together. Beleskey and McMillan can be moved around between the second and 4th lines. Carlyle needs to chill out with the matchups, especially when we're the away team. RPG is going to have to play against the other team's best players, and should be able to handle it.

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10-31-2011, 01:14 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Degenerate191 View Post
The original lines just need to be put back together, and stick Beleskey in there with Teemu/Saku. I remember Carlyle moving Ryan off the top line during away games last season, and it didn't work that well then, and I think we have a better bottom 6 (slightly anyways) than last year. Gordon-Cogliano-Smith-Pelley was looking really good the first few games, get them back together. Beleskey and McMillan can be moved around between the second and 4th lines. Carlyle needs to chill out with the matchups, especially when we're the away team. RPG is going to have to play against the other team's best players, and should be able to handle it.
I agree that Beleskey should get off the first line (if possible) but Beleskey will not work on the second line.

Ryan has looked great on the second line so far. I just wish we had someone better than Beleskey to play on the first line.

we can float by with Beleskey on the first line.. he's had a few scoring chances, and Perry and Getzlaf can easily pick up the slack. putting him on the second line would just cripple it, imo. I'd be putting McMillan back with Selanne and Koivu, before Beleskey plays with them.

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10-31-2011, 01:25 AM
  #10
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ryan has not looked great on the 2nd line. he is big power forward being asked to play a speed game with koivu and selanne. he is a grinder not a one and done player.

his skill set is mostly wasted on the 2nd line where they do not do much grinding board work to open up an opportunity out front.

i thought macnauer (sp) looked pretty good on the 2nd. rpg, selanne koivu mac, gordon cogs macmill would be our best line up at this point in my opinion.

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10-31-2011, 01:49 AM
  #11
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The offense should have been fixed in the offseason when Murray made it his priority to go out and do something about our woeful depth and lack of scoring outside of RPG. Instead he decides to complete ignore free agency and overpays an average third line talent and gives Carlyle the personnel to ice the softest bottom six this franchise has seen since the Gauthier days.

I know he has a budget but there's no excuse to not take advantage of the incredible contracts we have Getzlaf & Perry signed for. He's only got another year after this one before virtually everyone except Ryan and Hiller are either expiring UFA's or due massive raises (or both).

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10-31-2011, 01:54 AM
  #12
Unholy
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Given the payroll and if you swap Cogs with a Belanger or Goc I don't think there would be much of a difference with this team overall.

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10-31-2011, 02:14 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
Given the payroll and if you swap Cogs with a Belanger or Goc I don't think there would be much of a difference with this team overall.
Only if we could get the team accept Cogs for Belanger...

I've been thinking about this low scoring stuff too and only ways to solve it are to call up Palmieri and put him with the Finns. If he can't play left side, then put Gordon with the Finns and Palmieri with M&M and make it our 3rd line. DSP, Beleskey, Cogs and Parros form the 4th line whatever combination Carlyle wants.

If Palmieri thing doesn't work out, then we must trade for someone.

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10-31-2011, 02:29 AM
  #14
Paul4587
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Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
Given the payroll and if you swap Cogs with a Belanger or Goc I don't think there would be much of a difference with this team overall.
I think there would over the course of a full year. Maybe not Belanger but I wasn't much of a fan of his to begin with. Considering how bad Cogliano is at faceoffs, he would have been better off leaving McMillan at centre and signing a decent third line winger. Or he could have not overpaid Cogliano by at least half a million to begin with which may have left us enough room to do something else. I don't know, I'm not the GM but so far our troubles look very similar to the ones we had last year. Inconsistent D and woeful depth up front.

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10-31-2011, 06:33 AM
  #15
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1. There's probably not a single team in the WC that would be willing to help the Ducks out at the moment unless it's for a massive overpayment. Other than perhaps Columbus if they're looking to make a shake up after a horrid start.

2. The Ducks don't have any pieces of worth to give up, that they would be willing to give up imo. And a team like Boston won't be looking for prospects+picks. If a team suffers a long time injury on an offensive defenseman, maybe they could be interested in Foster. But then again, it wouldn't be for a clear cut top six winger.

3. Few teams in the EC should be willing to give up any clear cut top six player at this point either. There's simply no sellers this early in the season.

4. We're most likely going to get a player that is off a dissappointing start with another team.

5. And then there's the limited budget, so the Ducks are unlikely to get any high paid forwards.

Sorry for being such a pessimist, but the realistic options out there aren't going to please many on this board. And imo, the Ducks needs two forwards, not just one. Yet again, we're looking at cheap options hoping that they will surprise.

Sergei Samsonov finished last season with 14 points in 20 games with the Panthers, he is still a UFA and "only" 33. I'd take my chances on him and I'd trade for Omark, Comeau, Letestu or Downie, all who are off dissappointing starts while being on cheap contracts and that could be had for hopefully not too much (preferly Comeau or Downie because they add more strength). If I had to follow some of the five rules I mentioned above, this is what I could do.

Samsonov - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - Koivu - Selanne
McMillan - Cogliano - Downie/Comeau
Beleskey/Gordon - Macenauer - Gordon/Parros

Samsonov/Koivu/Selanne would be too soft and probably bad defensively, so I'd stick with Ryan on the 2nd. You can argue that Getzlaf/Perry hasn't worked with anyone else than Ryan, but the truth is they haven't been tried with someone else that can actually hold on to the puck.


Last edited by Elvs: 10-31-2011 at 07:05 AM.
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10-31-2011, 06:43 AM
  #16
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Man I cringe anytime someone mentions trading B-Ry. As far as I've witnessed the RPG line has proven to be successful without Getzy (last season), but not without Ryan. Not that I feel the RPG line should be messed with. The problem lies elsewhere. It almost seems like other team's defensive strategies have us all figured out. I think we should adjust our play style first then start looking to mix up the chemistry. I really wish Blake was back too. I know he's a scapegoat to many but that guy hustles every shift and I think it's becoming evident how important he was to the Finns.

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10-31-2011, 06:49 AM
  #17
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I said it before, I'll say it again. If you're really serious about fixing the scoring depth, then Ryan either HAS to work on the 2nd line or you have to trade him for 2 lesser scoring forwards. The only other option, which was always a long shot, was for Cogliano to score on either the 2nd or 3rd lines.

Getzlaf and Perry weren't scoring with Ryan on their line either. 5 ES points total in 7 games. Although it is true that they have 0 points in 4 games since. Ryan (3 points in 7 games before, 2 points in 4 games after) and the second line (4 points in 7 games before, 3 points in 4 games after) both improved scoring since Ryan moved down.

Historically Getzlaf and Perry have produced fine without Ryan, before he joined the NHL or before he joined the top line.

The team has a budget and has too much money invested in too few players. Trading Ryan for a better player, or trading for Weber, or any kind of move to acquire higher salaried players is the wrong direction. Especially in 2 years when Getzlaf and Perry get large raises. I don't care that Selanne or Koivu's money will be freed up, that's a red herring. You will need to replace them with MORE expensive players (they are underpaid for 2nd liners), giving less money to be spread for improvements.


edit: a few things I forgot
-I'm not saying Ryan doesn't work with Getz and Perry. They are arguably the best line in the league. But how many previous champions have had the best line in the league? It's especially hard with the budget
-Getzlaf and Perry have a history of working well with multiple 3rd wheels. Fedoruk, May, Penner, Kunitz, Ryan, and Beleskey a couple years ago.
-GP hasn't worked well with a number of other forwards, but rarely have they been tried long enough to really get used to each other. So it is a little hard to evaluate these players' real fit. Bertuzzi, Moen, Maroon, Sutherby, Lupul, Artyukhin, more. Beleskey 2.0 hasn't resulted in any scoring, but I do think they have shown enough chances to be worth sticking with a little longer.
-Ideally I would like to see a 2nd line caliber and salaried player with the twins. That would leave salary space for improving the scoring depth.
-In a sense this traces back to acquiring Blake. Just like how I trace McDonald back to the Bertuzzi/Selanne situation. Yes we had to get rid of Giguere, and yes we now see that Blake can't be easily replaced by our internal options. But accepting Blake was what forced us to move Lupul. Lupul was a) the long term 2nd line piece and b) moved at his lowest point in value. Lupul has 11 points in 11 games, although I haven't watched any Toronto games to know how much of that is from his contribution.
-I won't complain about the lack of offense too much because that's inevitable with a budget team. What you can get cheaply are defense and faceoffs. Our defense hasn't been bad, but the faceoffs are something that can be easily and cheaply improved, yet we haven't. That's a major failing IMO.


Last edited by snarktacular: 10-31-2011 at 07:33 AM.
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10-31-2011, 08:06 AM
  #18
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I said it before, I'll say it again. If you're really serious about fixing the scoring depth, then Ryan either HAS to work on the 2nd line or you have to trade him for 2 lesser scoring forwards. (...)

The team has a budget and has too much money invested in too few players. Trading Ryan for a better player, or trading for Weber, or any kind of move to acquire higher salaried players is the wrong direction. Especially in 2 years when Getzlaf and Perry get large raises. I don't care that Selanne or Koivu's money will be freed up, that's a red herring. You will need to replace them with MORE expensive players (they are underpaid for 2nd liners), giving less money to be spread for improvements.

-I'm not saying Ryan doesn't work with Getz and Perry. They are arguably the best line in the league. But how many previous champions have had the best line in the league? It's especially hard with the budget
-Getzlaf and Perry have a history of working well with multiple 3rd wheels. Fedoruk, May, Penner, Kunitz, Ryan, and Beleskey a couple years ago.
-GP hasn't worked well with a number of other forwards, but rarely have they been tried long enough to really get used to each other. So it is a little hard to evaluate these players' real fit. Bertuzzi, Moen, Maroon, Sutherby, Lupul, Artyukhin, more. Beleskey 2.0 hasn't resulted in any scoring, but I do think they have shown enough chances to be worth sticking with a little longer.
-Ideally I would like to see a 2nd line caliber and salaried player with the twins. That would leave salary space for improving the scoring depth.
Especially these points are spot on, in my opinion.

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Old
10-31-2011, 10:17 AM
  #19
snarktacular
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Some more food for thought regarding Giguere trade.

Now I know it's sometimes misleading to lump trades together, but sometimes it's just something to think about. Starting with the Giguere trade, here's what the pieces have done (feel free to correct me):

Giguere for Blake, Toskala
Beauchemin for nothing
Lupul, Gardiner, conditional 4th round pick (4th if Lupul plays 40 games in 12-13, otherwise 6th) for Beauchemin
Toskala for McElhinney
McElhinney for Ellis

So in the end that ends up as:
Giguere, Lupul, Gardiner, pick <-> Blake and Ellis.



Now this is only with hindsight as the assets could have always been used in other ways, but what if we had paid Gardiner to dump Giguere for only Toskala (and re-signed Beauchemin)? This trade would have been panned at the time, but in the end we would still have Ellis (maybe), Beauchemin and Lupul, but no Blake.

Blake, Ellis, Beauchemin vs Beauchemin, Lupul, Ellis (may or may not have pick)?

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10-31-2011, 11:07 AM
  #20
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No one is trading Ryan. Wish we had Lupul now.

Possibility Cogs will get traded?


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10-31-2011, 11:43 AM
  #21
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Should get Mats Zuccarello from NYR. Cheap and small risk. Two-way contract which expires this season.

Perfect 2nd line LW/RW.

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10-31-2011, 12:40 PM
  #22
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looking for feedback...be nice

I thought last night that Beleskey looked good with Selanne /Koivu the couple shifts they had... they seemed to actually pass the puck and play with him, where with Getz and Perry it seems like they never pass the puck to him in the offensive end. I wouldn't mind seeing this for at least a few shifts in a row.
As for the RPG, the dmen seem well trained that they will cycle the puck on the boards and when you shut that down they seem to be in trouble once they are in the end.

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10-31-2011, 01:07 PM
  #23
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What about adding a fourth Finn in Niklas Hagman? He's had some experience with Koivu and Selšnne, is roughly a 2nd line winger and was put on waivers but not picked up in the off-season IIRC. Earns $3M in the Flames.

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10-31-2011, 01:35 PM
  #24
JabbaJabba
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What about adding a fourth Finn in Niklas Hagman? He's had some experience with Koivu and Selšnne, is roughly a 2nd line winger and was put on waivers but not picked up in the off-season IIRC. Earns $3M in the Flames.
There's your answer, his price tag is too big. Flames would have to get some salary back (Blake, which won't happen).

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10-31-2011, 03:04 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by TesseracT View Post
Man I cringe anytime someone mentions trading B-Ry. As far as I've witnessed the RPG line has proven to be successful without Getzy (last season), but not without Ryan. Not that I feel the RPG line should be messed with. The problem lies elsewhere. It almost seems like other team's defensive strategies have us all figured out. I think we should adjust our play style first then start looking to mix up the chemistry. I really wish Blake was back too. I know he's a scapegoat to many but that guy hustles every shift and I think it's becoming evident how important he was to the Finns.
I thought Getzlaf and Perry played some of their best hockey with Kunitz on their line for most of the 08-09 season. It was Getzlaf's best season statistically speaking to date. They don't need Ryan, they just need someone with reasonable hockey sense and who is good enough to cycle the puck with them. Beleskey isn't that guy.

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