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Old
11-07-2011, 05:56 PM
  #51
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Thanks for correcting me on that. You're right.
Believe me, knowing this makes it easier to dump a few bucks into one now and then.

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11-07-2011, 10:02 PM
  #52
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Another minor league/assistant NHL GM? No thanks! We have one of those and he sucks! Get one who has actual NHL GM experience! Hell I'd take Mike Keenan, at least he has balls to kick ass! How could he possibly do any worse!
anyone with GM experience and currently available, other than Scotty Bowman, is by definition a failed GM who was fired from their last job.

I dont get why you want a retread who couldnt get it done elsewhere over an up and comer with pretty solid mentors(Poile and Shero) and a track record of developing exactly what you guys need most(defense/goaltending).. but thats OK Id rather keep fenton in nashville or if we have to lose him let him go East like Shero.

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11-08-2011, 12:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JacketFanInFL View Post
Light the Lamp brought up an intriguing name: Paul Fenton who is the assistant GM for the Nashville Predators.

He's been a GM on a very successful minor league team, comes from an organization that does it correctly and builds through the draft, and clearly understands that you build from the net out.

Better than a wild card like Hextall in my opinion.

http://predators.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=36986
A journeyman minor-league level scoring forward who GM'd a successful minor league team and is now an assistant GM on a team with an internal cap?

Why's this sound familiar?

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This team has a terribly flawed roster. There is no shut down ability on the blue line. The young forwards are terribly undeveloped. Watching Calvert and Atkinson thrash around wildly on the ice like fish out of water is an indictment of both the GM and the coaching.

They need a GM who will build a proper roster, then institute a system that players learn - no - is ingrained in them in the minors and maintained in Columbus.
That's a side effect of the instability. Add in the fact that Ken Hitchcock wanted big shutdown defensemen (and had them), then Scott Arniel wants puck-movers who can push the place (and has them). The end results were/are predictable. Hitchcock had a team with little scoring from the back end, and Arniel has a team that can't stop anything. The only defenseman who could play both styles and not look too out of place is Tyutin, and he's not exactly an All-Star in any system.

A big reason that Nashville has had success in the last few years is because they wanted to build from the back end out from the beginning and they're stuck to that throughout their initial build. Columbus didn't do that; just look at how few defensemen and how few good defensive prospects were drafted in the MacLean years. For that matter, Atlanta did the same thing, and the parallels between the two franchises are striking if not disturbing.

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11-08-2011, 12:39 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by CBJRedman View Post
I fully believe the problem is the Country Club atmosphere. I've had always heard that is was like that. I have heard from someone in the organization that players require multiple jerseys for a single game. Why, because they are sweaty. Same goes for skates. Some players need two pairs of skates, because the first pair is to sweaty. The team, has to then dry the first pair, while the player wears the second. Then change them out for the third period. When I asked if this happens on other team, the answer I got was **** no! On other teams, it is an privilege to wear a teams jersey. Not so much here. Just like a country club, Yes Mr. Nash, Yes Mr. Tyutin.
The question then becomes who is responsible for this behavior? It comes from the top Ownership, and GM. It won't change until GM steps up and says no. I believe it also goes one step further, Rick Nash needs to step up and say no. Tell the other player, no, wear you jersey with pride. If it is sweaty, good you are working hard then. Until then, we will get players who know they can come here and collect a paycheck, and have the summers off. Is it any wonder when trying to convince a player to come here, one of the first things they talk about is the great golf courses?
That's simply not true. Yes, a few players will switch jerseys and gloves between periods for reasons related to sweat. No, that's not something exclusive to Columbus, and whoever suggests that it is doesn't know what they're talking about.

Mike Peca was a notorious sweater, and his needing to change equipment didn't seem to stop him from being an undersized power forward and Selke winner who captained a badly undermanned team to a Stanley Cup Final....and won a gold medal in the Olympics in that role....and was a vital cog in a #8 seed making it to another Cup Final.

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11-08-2011, 12:41 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by JBum View Post
Another minor league/assistant NHL GM? No thanks! We have one of those and he sucks! Get one who has actual NHL GM experience! Hell I'd take Mike Keenan, at least he has balls to kick ass! How could he possibly do any worse!
Ask Vancouver how Keenan could do worse. He brought in Mark Messier and his idiot buddy Brian Noonan, which promptly divided the locker room of a playoff team. His arbitrary attitudes toward several players has legitimately ruined their careers, and his personnel (and personal) skills are sorely lacking.

If you think that Ken Hitchcock had problems with young players, take just a quick look at Keenan's career.

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11-08-2011, 06:57 AM
  #56
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That's a side effect of the instability. Add in the fact that Ken Hitchcock wanted big shutdown defensemen (and had them)
If you think the defense that Hitch had was what he was looking for, you are misinformed. Very misinformed. Hitch was not looking for pure shut down guys, at least not more than one or two for match up purposes.

Go see if you can dig up sound clips of him harping on the defense joining the rush. I remember clips of him saying we needed to move the puck better from the back end. Every time he would try and give the defense more free reign, their lack of skill set would become pronounced, odd man rushes would occur, and he'd have to adjust to what he had. Why do you think he was so desperate to get Russell going?

Hitch knew the defense needed improvement after the playoff run. What he got was Stralman. Do you think that's what he wanted?

Do you remember all the preaching of moving as a 5 man unit? The short passes? Did you notice that it opened up some as we went along and got slightly better personal from when Hitch was first hired? He was compensating for a lack of talent within the system.

There is a deep, fundamental misunderstanding of what Hitch wanted and now wants.

As far as Arniel and Howson goes, they seem to be on this new NHL defensemen kick. Mobile puck movers are good, but you have to have that guy that can match up with the top teams players and chew up a lot of minutes. By definition that guy should be fairly mobile and being a good puck mover is helpful. There really isn't someone on this team to really pair up with Wiz, since we've decided he's a 1/2 guy. We keep putting people in roles that aren't capable of playing for 82+ games. Klesla was the closest thing we had, but he couldn't stay healthy. It also appeared that he wasn't mobile or a good enough puck mover for Arniel.

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11-08-2011, 08:51 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
There is a deep, fundamental misunderstanding of what Hitch wanted and now wants.

As far as Arniel and Howson goes, they seem to be on this new NHL defensemen kick. Mobile puck movers are good, but you have to have that guy that can match up with the top teams players and chew up a lot of minutes. By definition that guy should be fairly mobile and being a good puck mover is helpful. There really isn't someone on this team to really pair up with Wiz, since we've decided he's a 1/2 guy. We keep putting people in roles that aren't capable of playing for 82+ games. Klesla was the closest thing we had, but he couldn't stay healthy. It also appeared that he wasn't mobile or a good enough puck mover for Arniel.
Howson always seems to be 2 steps behind on the conventional wisdom in the league. A few years back everyone was overfocused on "puckmovers" around the league and their prices shot up. Then, the summer before this one, it suddenly dawned on some of the GM's that they still needed someone to actually stay back and play defense while their puck movers were caught pinching in. And so you saw the Penguins and others drive up the price on stay-at-home defensemen.

Which to me, points to the heart of the problem with Howson--he's busy reacting instead of having a cohesive vision for this team. Palinka's own comments are an admission of this. Howson didn't have a vision for the team--he accepted Hitch's. And then, when he finally got a chance at a clean slate, instead of a picking a coach who could adapt to whatever vision Howson should have had, apparently he once again went with the vision of an inexperienced coach?!

If you want to know why this team has no identity and is more of a collection of players than a team, this is why.

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11-08-2011, 08:56 AM
  #58
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well said cap'n...

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11-08-2011, 09:04 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Howson always seems to be 2 steps behind on the conventional wisdom in the league. A few years back everyone was overfocused on "puckmovers" around the league and their prices shot up. Then, the summer before this one, it suddenly dawned on some of the GM's that they still needed someone to actually stay back and play defense while their puck movers were caught pinching in. And so you saw the Penguins and others drive up the price on stay-at-home defensemen.

Which to me, points to the heart of the problem with Howson--he's busy reacting instead of having a cohesive vision for this team. Palinka's own comments are an admission of this. Howson didn't have a vision for the team--he accepted Hitch's. And then, when he finally got a chance at a clean slate, instead of a picking a coach who could adapt to whatever vision Howson should have had, apparently he once again went with the vision of an inexperienced coach?!

If you want to know why this team has no identity and is more of a collection of players than a team, this is why.
I've been describing it in conversations as having a "tin ear." Or, to use another musical term, he's not a "feel" player. He may be playing all of the right notes (in this case, many of them), but there's no groove.

Like many, I believe this problem extends further up the chain than the GM. Witness the disjointed history of this team/orga-eye-zation.

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11-08-2011, 09:07 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CBJRedman View Post
I fully believe the problem is the Country Club atmosphere. I've had always heard that is was like that. I have heard from someone in the organization that players require multiple jerseys for a single game. Why, because they are sweaty. Same goes for skates. Some players need two pairs of skates, because the first pair is to sweaty. The team, has to then dry the first pair, while the player wears the second. Then change them out for the third period. When I asked if this happens on other team, the answer I got was **** no! On other teams, it is an privilege to wear a teams jersey. Not so much here. Just like a country club, Yes Mr. Nash, Yes Mr. Tyutin.
The question then becomes who is responsible for this behavior? It comes from the top Ownership, and GM. It won't change until GM steps up and says no. I believe it also goes one step further, Rick Nash needs to step up and say no. Tell the other player, no, wear you jersey with pride. If it is sweaty, good you are working hard then. Until then, we will get players who know they can come here and collect a paycheck, and have the summers off. Is it any wonder when trying to convince a player to come here, one of the first things they talk about is the great golf courses?
I am amazed at what people get worked up over on this board. I also love the number of times "someone in the organization" is used in a post where the info is total wrong.

As it has been already stated there are a number of players in the NHL that change equipment for each period and I believe there are only 3 players on the Jackets that have 3 sets of jerseys (Nash, Mason and Tyutin).

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Old
11-08-2011, 12:24 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
well said cap'n...
It was a somewhat interesting read on his part, other than I don't agree that Howson blindly accepted Hitch's "vision". I guy like Stralman was no where in Hitch's vision, we can illustrate the moves that were non-Hitch like again, but there's no point. I don't think Hitch and Howson every saw eye-to-eye, nor do I think Howson went out of his way to provide a roster for Hitch's vision.

However, I do agree with him that Howson seems rather reactionary. He seemed to make some pretty interesting points.

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11-08-2011, 02:16 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
It was a somewhat interesting read on his part, other than I don't agree that Howson blindly accepted Hitch's "vision". I guy like Stralman was no where in Hitch's vision, we can illustrate the moves that were non-Hitch like again, but there's no point. I don't think Hitch and Howson every saw eye-to-eye, nor do I think Howson went out of his way to provide a roster for Hitch's vision.

However, I do agree with him that Howson seems rather reactionary. He seemed to make some pretty interesting points.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought in many ways Howson worked to undermine Hitchcock.

He didn't re-sign or traded several leaders that seemed to hold the group together. (Malhotra is an example, as is Chimera and Peca)

He drafted and traded for players that clearly didn't fit in the Hitchcock system. (Filatov, Stralman and Moore)

He hung on to players that weren't going to fit.

Then there is his refusal to deal with goaltending.

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11-08-2011, 03:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Maybe it's just me, but I thought in many ways Howson worked to undermine Hitchcock.

He didn't re-sign or traded several leaders that seemed to hold the group together. (Malhotra is an example, as is Chimera and Peca)

He drafted and traded for players that clearly didn't fit in the Hitchcock system. (Filatov, Stralman and Moore)

He hung on to players that weren't going to fit.

Then there is his refusal to deal with goaltending.

Agreed. I have never for a single minute believed that Hitch orchestrated a CBJ roster-knapping. Often, Howson flagrantly undermined Hitch's stated desires about roster players (Shelley,
Glenncross, Foote all examples in addition to the ones you named).

Seems to me that the major, all-encompassing flaw of this club's roster is that it DOES reflect perfectly the man and GM that Howson is. A namby-pamby mishmash of mewling little kittens - flighty and indecisive in the worst kind of ADD way. This team plays EXACLTY like Howson manages - all East/West figure skating, looking for that "goal scorers goal" and very little of the North/South smashmouth hard effing work that results in the breaking the opposition's backbone and finally their spirit.

:sniiiiff: Yep, smells like Howson.

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11-08-2011, 03:24 PM
  #64
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Maybe it's just me, but I thought in many ways Howson worked to undermine Hitchcock.

He didn't re-sign or traded several leaders that seemed to hold the group together. (Malhotra is an example, as is Chimera and Peca)

He drafted and traded for players that clearly didn't fit in the Hitchcock system. (Filatov, Stralman and Moore)

He hung on to players that weren't going to fit.

Then there is his refusal to deal with goaltending.
I don't think he worked to undermine Hitch at all.

With regards to Stralman and Moore...did I miss something? Does Hitch hate all offensively-minded defensemen? And, remember, when drafted, we were told Moore was a solid all-around d-man, not some PP specialist. Then again, we were also told via the Dispatch that Filatov was completely different from Zherdev and was devoted to developing into a complete player.

You cite the trading, etc. of "leaders." But, keep in mind who replaced two of the guys you referenced--Pahlsson and Clark. Pahlsson was supposed to be an upgrade over Malhotra (I had my doubts even then given his decline before leaving Anaheim and especially in Chicago) and Clark was the friggin' captain in Washington.

Again, if you look at the history of Howson's teams, veteran leadership is an interesting example of how the guy can't seem to put it together. He went from the playoff team with guys like Peca, Modin, heck, even Chris Gratton, etc., to having too few, to then going out and bringing in Clark and Moreau who served NO purpose other than leadership...to this year, where the only veteran leader he's really got other than guys who have come of age in the Country Club is Prospal...and that was only because Juice was hurt.

It is the current state of affairs that makes me openly wonder if the next GM should blow this whole thing up. I look at this team and I ask, who of this core group is really committed to winning? Who are the guys I would consider good mentors for a kid like Yakupov or a guy like Johansen? Would be be better served to trade Nash, Vermette and others to acquire (1) a real veteran #1 defenseman, (2) a real #1 goaltender and (3) character player that won't tolerate losing and then build around a new nucleus of Carter, Johansen, our #1 pick and, painful as it will be, likely another high lottery pick next season?

I'm to a point that I don't even know what the answer is because the team as assembled has so many issues. This shouldn't be the case after acquiring two of our biggest needs in a power play capable defenseman and a #1 center. But its clear that our depth, our defense, and our goaltending have negated any benefit from those acquisitions and with our cap number where it is, we're going to have to consider drastic measures to fix this.

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11-08-2011, 03:47 PM
  #65
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I don't think he worked to undermine Hitch at all.

With regards to Stralman and Moore...did I miss something? Does Hitch hate all offensively-minded defensemen?
No I don't think Hitch hates offensive defensemen. I think he leans towards defensive guys and would prefer two way defensemen. I don't have to tell you Hitch is all about defense and counter-attack after a mistake.


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And, remember, when drafted, we were told Moore was a solid all-around d-man, not some PP specialist. Then again, we were also told via the Dispatch that Filatov was completely different from Zherdev and was devoted to developing into a complete player.
Agreed, we were told both of those things. Perhaps Boyd and Howson were the sources of those rumors about Moore and Zherdev?


Quote:
You cite the trading, etc. of "leaders." But, keep in mind who replaced two of the guys you referenced--Pahlsson and Clark. Pahlsson was supposed to be an upgrade over Malhotra (I had my doubts even then given his decline before leaving Anaheim and especially in Chicago) and Clark was the friggin' captain in Washington.

OK, you got me there. The difference is that Malhotra and Chimera weren't washed up like Clark , Rivet and Moreau, or on the downside of their careers like Pahlsson.

A
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gain, if you look at the history of Howson's teams, veteran leadership is an interesting example of how the guy can't seem to put it together. He went from the playoff team with guys like Peca, Modin, heck, even Chris Gratton, etc., to having too few, to then going out and bringing in Clark and Moreau who served NO purpose other than leadership...to this year, where the only veteran leader he's really got other than guys who have come of age in the Country Club is Prospal...and that was only because Juice was hurt.
Agreed, where's the vision? Could Scotty Freakin Bowman make this roster a good team?

I don't believe he could.

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It is the current state of affairs that makes me openly wonder if the next GM should blow this whole thing up.
If he can dump the contracts, I think he should.

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I look at this team and I ask, who of this core group is really committed to winning? Who are the guys I would consider good mentors for a kid like Yakupov or a guy like Johansen? Would be be better served to trade Nash, Vermette and others to acquire (1) a real veteran #1 defenseman, (2) a real #1 goaltender and (3) character player that won't tolerate losing and then build around a new nucleus of Carter, Johansen, our #1 pick and, painful as it will be, likely another high lottery pick next season?
Look at it a different way. I think the most difficult thing to do is build a good defensive corps. It also takes longer in general than a good forward group to build. By the time a GM could build a strong blue line, won't Umberger, Nash and Vermette be on the downside of their careers and have less value than now? Why not maximize their value and accumulate high end prospects and picks to go along with Yakupov, Grigorenko or Murray?

More important to me, is getting a GM who has a strong vision, and a coach to match it. Decide who this team is going to be. Implement a system and trade and draft to fit it. Implement that system in the minors- both ECHL if possible and the AHL, so when these new guys get to Columbus, the system is ingrained in their play and we won't see the panic induced fire drills we've seen under Arniel.

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I'm to a point that I don't even know what the answer is because the team as assembled has so many issues. This shouldn't be the case after acquiring two of our biggest needs in a power play capable defenseman and a #1 center. But its clear that our depth, our defense, and our goaltending have negated any benefit from those acquisitions and with our cap number where it is, we're going to have to consider drastic measures to fix this.
You know what the answer is. Many of us do. Vision, plan, execution throughout the organization. It's the hallmark of solid sports franchises and good businesses everywhere. Hell it probably holds true in the law as well.

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11-08-2011, 03:57 PM
  #66
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Yep, I know that's what Hitch said to Howson. "Get me a basically unproven PP specialist that I have to hide in a 5/6 role". I don't think Hitch had any issue with Moore being drafted.

Phalsson what not the brainchild of what everyone here would think and Clark was brought in when we were struggling, mid-season. Who trades their Captain for Jason Chimera? Yeah, Clark was exactly what we were looking for I'm sure.

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11-08-2011, 04:41 PM
  #67
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clark was only brought in to try and hold the room together when we were starting the slide I thought... maybe i'm oversimplifying my thoughts

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11-08-2011, 08:28 PM
  #68
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clark was only brought in to try and hold the room together when we were starting the slide I thought... maybe i'm oversimplifying my thoughts
Yes, that was part of it.

I also think that there was more to it. Chimmer had worn out his welcome. Not sure whether it was with Hitch, Howson or both and quite frankly I don't care. Jason Chimera, whose also on the downside of his career, being traded is not the reason this team sucks.

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11-08-2011, 08:38 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Yes, that was part of it.

I also think that there was more to it. Chimmer had worn out his welcome. Not sure whether it was with Hitch, Howson or both and quite frankly I don't care. Jason Chimera, whose also on the downside of his career, being traded is not the reason this team sucks.
I believe I remember that Chimmer was a whiner, cry baby, and general distraction in the locker room. Wasn't well liked among the staff.

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11-08-2011, 08:38 PM
  #70
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Five Candidates to Replace Coach Scott Arniel

Coach Scott Arniel is a well respected member of the hockey community. A veteran of 730 NHL games, the Kingston, Ont. native made the leap from player to coach relatively smoothly. He braved the ranks as an IHL player/coach, NHL assistant coach, AHL head coach and finally NHL head coach over the span of 15 years. Arniel makes for a great story when succeeding — like he did when he won the Louis A. R. Pieri Memorial Award as the top coach in the AHL.

http://nhlhotstove.com/five-candidat...-scott-arniel/

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11-08-2011, 08:40 PM
  #71
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is there a 6th candidate?

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11-08-2011, 08:49 PM
  #72
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is there a 6th candidate?
I hope so, because none of those guys thrill me.

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11-08-2011, 08:53 PM
  #73
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anyone with GM experience and currently available, other than Scotty Bowman, is by definition a failed GM who was fired from their last job.

I dont get why you want a retread who couldnt get it done elsewhere over an up and comer with pretty solid mentors(Poile and Shero) and a track record of developing exactly what you guys need most(defense/goaltending).. but thats OK Id rather keep fenton in nashville or if we have to lose him let him go East like Shero.
Don't blame you one bit. I really admire the Preds for developing a total franchise the right way. With the formula you have in place, you'll be winning for a long time.

If we had one ounce of that direction here, we'd benefit tenfold.

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11-08-2011, 10:33 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Howson always seems to be 2 steps behind on the conventional wisdom in the league. A few years back everyone was overfocused on "puckmovers" around the league and their prices shot up. Then, the summer before this one, it suddenly dawned on some of the GM's that they still needed someone to actually stay back and play defense while their puck movers were caught pinching in. And so you saw the Penguins and others drive up the price on stay-at-home defensemen.

Which to me, points to the heart of the problem with Howson--he's busy reacting instead of having a cohesive vision for this team. Palinka's own comments are an admission of this. Howson didn't have a vision for the team--he accepted Hitch's. And then, when he finally got a chance at a clean slate, instead of a picking a coach who could adapt to whatever vision Howson should have had, apparently he once again went with the vision of an inexperienced coach?!

If you want to know why this team has no identity and is more of a collection of players than a team, this is why.
It scares me that I've been agreeing with you so much lately.

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11-08-2011, 10:40 PM
  #75
Robert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
Five Candidates to Replace Coach Scott Arniel

Coach Scott Arniel is a well respected member of the hockey community. A veteran of 730 NHL games, the Kingston, Ont. native made the leap from player to coach relatively smoothly. He braved the ranks as an IHL player/coach, NHL assistant coach, AHL head coach and finally NHL head coach over the span of 15 years. Arniel makes for a great story when succeeding — like he did when he won the Louis A. R. Pieri Memorial Award as the top coach in the AHL.

http://nhlhotstove.com/five-candidat...-scott-arniel/
Good resume, I heard he was a boy scout master too, is that true?

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