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DRAFT: #102 - Rhett Holland

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Old
06-23-2012, 10:06 AM
  #1
PhoPhan
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DRAFT: #102 - Rhett Holland

Physical defenseman.

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06-23-2012, 10:09 AM
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ScottsdaleYote
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Goon and a reach ranked 167 for NA skaters in the final ranking. Athanasiou and Gemel Smith are still out there. I wouldn't have minded taking a risk on one of those...it's good value.

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06-23-2012, 10:10 AM
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Sindiggy
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Anyone got anything on this kid?

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06-23-2012, 10:13 AM
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PhoPhan
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Not a goon. Seems to have solid upside. Heading to Michigan State from the AJHL.

http://www.thescoutingreport.org/ajh...outh-division/

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Playing on a blue-line that has a lot of depth in Okotoks, Holland has the luxury of not having to be depended on to carry the team. As a result, Holland is able to play his style of game and do the things that hes effective at. Holland is a very physical defenseman and does a good job in defensive zone coverage with an active stick. When hes on his game, Holland limits the time and space of opposing forwards and does a good job maintaining strong gap control. His strong defensive presence also forces a lot of turnovers as he does a good job of anticipating the play and getting into passing lanes. Holland still needs to work on his overall game and play within his means, but as an NCAA commit with 3-4 years to develop before needing to be signed, Holland is probably worth a late-round pick at this point.
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/player/...holland/17904/

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Solid defender who shows all the tools to continue his progression as a solid defenseman. May not have the flash & dash of many of the D-men who will be picked early, but he is a workhorse at a lower tier who has benefitted by big minutes. Calm and solid in his own end, due to his feel and extremely good positioning. Closes gaps and uses his quick stick and makes life difficult for the attackers down low. Decent mobility for a bigger man. Very good breakout passer who has a good stretch pass. Logs minute on the PP. His offensive game at this point is based on his passing, as his shot is below average. Named to the Canada West roster for the 2011 World Junior 'A' Challenge, and tried to set the tempo with hard hits in each game.

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06-23-2012, 10:13 AM
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ScottsdaleYote
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Over 200 PIM this past year, that's about all I need to know.

Gemel Smith just went to Dallas a couple of picks later. Oh well...

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06-23-2012, 10:13 AM
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I don't know anything about this kid but reaching for defensemen seems like a strange strategy..

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06-23-2012, 12:04 PM
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At least he's right handed.

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06-23-2012, 12:09 PM
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How anyone can call anything a reach in this draft is beyond me. You guys wanted Bozon at 27 and he went in the third round. Nick Ebert was the last pick in the draft. This year was ALL OVER THE PLACE. Clearly there was no consensus so we should really try not to cling too tightly to pre draft "rankings".

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06-23-2012, 12:24 PM
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ScottsdaleYote
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Guy's ranking equated to not being drafted. Of the 15-20 guys rated above him only 3 three got drafted - none as high as him and one of them was Hache who we got in the 7th rd. We picked him at #102. That's a reach.

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06-23-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottsdaleYote View Post
Guy's ranking equated to not being drafted. Of the 15-20 guys rated above him only 3 three got drafted - none as high as him and one of them was Hache who we got in the 7th rd. We picked him at #102. That's a reach.
Whose rankings? The Coyotes have a scouting staff for a reason.

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06-23-2012, 06:33 PM
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Calgary Herald story from Thursday:

Okotoks hockey star awaits good news from NHL draft after recovering from serious car crash

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06-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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Wow, sounds like he's lucky to have gotten through that ok. Like what I'm hearing about this guy though, really the kind of dman i can get behind.

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06-23-2012, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Whose rankings? The Coyotes have a scouting staff for a reason.
Central Scouting. Couldn't you use your reasoning as justification for drafting anybody? Of course we rated him high enough to be picked at #102 - my point is that we over-rated him.

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06-23-2012, 10:34 PM
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**** central scouting.

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06-23-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsdaleYote View Post
Central Scouting. Couldn't you use your reasoning as justification for drafting anybody? Of course we rated him high enough to be picked at #102 - my point is that we over-rated him.
But based on what? If you draft solely on consensus, you end up with what Bobby Smith built for this team in the '90s: nothing at all. You draft the guys you want. If they really think Martinook can be an NHLer, you're not going to let him slip just so you can take a guy Central Scouting liked better. I'd be pretty upset if the Coyotes just deferred to someone else's rankings.

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06-24-2012, 04:51 PM
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Interview with Holland:

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/podcastp...=335&iid=39934

and twitter:

https://twitter.com/#!/rholland7

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06-24-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
But based on what? If you draft solely on consensus, you end up with what Bobby Smith built for this team in the '90s: nothing at all. You draft the guys you want. If they really think Martinook can be an NHLer, you're not going to let him slip just so you can take a guy Central Scouting liked better. I'd be pretty upset if the Coyotes just deferred to someone else's rankings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, you guys really need to be less defensive about any dissenting opinions. RR did a great job summarizing where our picks were ranked. We took Holland higher (usually much higher) than any other ranking except for 1. I wasn't talking about Martinook, but we took him higher than any other rating. Do any of us know whether these guys will be good players? No. But we could have gotten both later. We reached. Martinook I can understand a little more because we have extra intel and we didn't have an early 3rd, but we could have had Holland 2 rounds later, and if some other team would have taken him, then there would be another player with just as much promise that we could take in his place. We didn't get fair value on this one, and looking at it objectively I don't know how you guys can say any differently.

BTW, we DID get fair or very good value on all of our picks other than Martinook and Holland, so overall it was a good draft.


PLAYER POS L/R HT WT DOB TEAM LEAGUE CP FC HP ISS McK RLR
Henrik Samuelsson RW R 6.02 192 Feb 7, 1994 MoDo SEL 27 45 42 27 32 22
Jordan Martinook C L 6.01 208 Jul 25, 1992 Vancouver Giants WHL 58 NR 72 NR 113 190
James Melindy D R 6.03 195 Dec 11, 1993 Moncton QMJHL 88 60 114 79 85 65
Rhett Holland D L 6.02 202 Nov 12, 1993 Okotoks AJHL 102 168 NR 199 NR 68
Niklas Tikkinen D L 5.11 173 Jun 1, 1994 Espoo SM-ligia 148 134 92 43 112 103
Samuel Fejes LW L 6.01 176 May 31, 1994 Shattuck St. Mary's HIGH-MN 178 NR 126 86 NR 181
Marek Langhamer GK L 6.02 172 Jul 22, 1994 Pardubice Cze U20 184 129 NR NR NR 171
Justin Hache D L 6.01 184 Jan 10, 1994 Shawinigan QMJHL 208 150 188 103 120 106


CP = Coyotes Pick
FC = Future Considerations
HP = Hockey Prospects
ISS = International Scouting Services
McK = McKeens
RLR = Redline Report

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06-24-2012, 06:22 PM
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PHX FireBirds18
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You do know that the Yotes scouting staff makes an overall draft list and most likely just picks the next guy on the list when it gets to their pick. That means in their eyes he was the next BPA, but lets pass on him because he might be there 30 or 60 picks later. According to your theory, Calgary should have waited until the 2nd or 3rd round to draft Jankowski but if they did that, they might have lost out on him and what they consider to be the best player in the draft.

Who would you have rather taken? I'll give you some time to look over the scouting draft lists....


Last edited by PHX FireBirds18: 06-24-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
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Blubba Jenkins
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I think by Round 3, who cares if you reached? Many players drafted in the third round will never sniff the NHL. If you get an NHL player out of it, then you got fair value.

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06-24-2012, 06:43 PM
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Scottsdale, please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a new draft follower? I only ask because you seem to put a lot of stock into the ranking of "scouting services". Having been following the draft very closely for over a decade I've learned to be almost entirely dismissive of these pre draft lists put out by "scouting services". They really don't mean anything.

McKenzie's list is interesting because it's a compilation of lists from actual NHL scouts. Even that, however, is far from perfect because it is an average. It would be more meaningful to me if he released ten separate lists; one from each scout. Also, unless these are head scouts, there is a clear bias. NHL clubs employ regional amateur scouts.

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06-24-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
You do know that the Yotes scouting staff makes an overall draft list and most likely just picks the next guy on the list when it gets to their pick. That means in their eyes he was the next BPA, but lets pass on him because he might be there 30 or 60 picks later. According to your theory, Calgary should have waited until the 2nd or 3rd round to draft Jankowski but if they did that, they might have lost out on him and what they consider to be the best player in the draft.

Who would you have rather taken? I'll give you some time to look over the scouting draft lists....
I would have taken Bozon in the 2nd (or traded down into the eary 3rd if I was stuck on Martinook...on NHL Network they even said scouts were expecting to nab him in the 4th or 5th rd) and I would have taken Gemel Smith or Athanasiou in the 4th and said as much as our pick was coming up...but hey, why not draft another defenseman when we could have added a skilled forward instead?

...and yes Calgary reached on Jankowski, but at least they traded down once before selecting him and got some value later in the draft.

You make mistakes like this when you zero in on one player and not a group of players. The reality is that no matter what your scouts say, they don't know how one guy will develop, and the next guy on the list is just as likely to be a good player, especially the deeper in the draft you get. It's the same philosophy the New England Patriots use, and they seem to know what they are doing.

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06-25-2012, 01:52 AM
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I'm thinking no matter what I type you're going to be stuck on your own beliefs of how the Coyotes scouting staff should of handled things. They tried this strategy a couple years ago and judging by Maloneys face it sure looked like they missed out on someone they really wanted and instantly regretted the decision to do so. It's crazy to think that Knickle was sitting there saying well I've watched this guys all year but RLR has him in the 4th and 5th round so try and get another mid round pick Don.

The coyotes scouting staff sound like they got the guys they wanted and I'm happy for that.

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06-25-2012, 12:34 PM
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ScottsdaleYote
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Have you ever heard a scout say they hated their draft the day after?

Again, I think we had a good draft, much better than last year for sure. I'm not even that upset with the Martinook pick, especially given they see him as a center (which we desperately need), and given his maturity he's closer to playing in the NHL. Given we have little C depth in our system that is anywhere near NHL ready, I get it. The other options at that spot are probably much further away from contributing for the big club.

Based on their own comments though, they picked Holland to replace Ruopp, which essentially means that he wasn't the first on their list. They looked for a certain type of player - he's big, nasty, can skate, but didn't produce offense in a relatively low level of competition. I think it would have filled a bigger need to add a skilled forward, especially one of the two that slid to the 4th rd (and I guarantee I'm not the only one on this board), but it's not my job, and I'm not on the hook for it. It will be enjoyable seeing how Holland progresses in a few years...will gladly eat crow if he turns into anything useful at the NHL level.

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06-25-2012, 04:26 PM
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Sindiggy
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I'm of the opinion that the later round picks should be spent on guys that have 1st round talent that just haven't put it together yet. Sometimes guys just don't get it, have trouble with consistency and then sometime in the future their bodies/instincts/performance or whatever it is finally catches up to their skill level.

Athansiou (spelling?) and Bozon and Ebert for that matter fit the mold. All of these guys have 1st round talent but fell. We took guys that if they do make it to the NHL, it will be as a 3rd or 4th line grinder or a bottom pair dman

You can always go the UFA route with 3rd and 4th line grinders because they are inexpensive and quite frankly there are a "ton" of guys that can do it. Plus the grinders are guys like Chipchura that were 1st round draft chocies that didn't pan out.

Yandle is a prime example of what to do with later round picks. Yandle had all the skill in the world and for some reason fell to the 5th (his defensive game and consistency were lacking, so we got him cheap, but look at him now)...Winnik made it as a 7th rounder but it doesn't matter because we were able to replace Winnik with Pyatt. That's why I liked the 5th round selection Tikkinen, the kid has lots of skill, if he puts it together then it's a win for us.

Out of our draft selections (excluding Samuelsson), the skill players are Tikkinen and Melindy. The other guys are all brimstone and fire. I can almost guarantee that Nikkinen and Melindy will be the best players for us out of our selections for everyone picked from the 2nd round on.

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06-25-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
I'm of the opinion that the later round picks should be spent on guys that have 1st round talent that just haven't put it together yet. Sometimes guys just don't get it, have trouble with consistency and then sometime in the future their bodies/instincts/performance or whatever it is finally catches up to their skill level.

Athansiou (spelling?) and Bozon and Ebert for that matter fit the mold. All of these guys have 1st round talent but fell. We took guys that if they do make it to the NHL, it will be as a 3rd or 4th line grinder or a bottom pair dman

You can always go the UFA route with 3rd and 4th line grinders because they are inexpensive and quite frankly there are a "ton" of guys that can do it. Plus the grinders are guys like Chipchura that were 1st round draft chocies that didn't pan out.

Yandle is a prime example of what to do with later round picks. Yandle had all the skill in the world and for some reason fell to the 5th (his defensive game and consistency were lacking, so we got him cheap, but look at him now)...Winnik made it as a 7th rounder but it doesn't matter because we were able to replace Winnik with Pyatt. That's why I liked the 5th round selection Tikkinen, the kid has lots of skill, if he puts it together then it's a win for us.

Out of our draft selections (excluding Samuelsson), the skill players are Tikkinen and Melindy. The other guys are all brimstone and fire. I can almost guarantee that Nikkinen and Melindy will be the best players for us out of our selections for everyone picked from the 2nd round on.
I agree with your philosophy in general but feel it's sort of misapplied. Martinook, for example, while not a "skill" player per se has top 6 upside for sure. In the fourth round and beyond, it gets a lot harder to project. Anybody can be a bottom sixer or top sixer or more likely neither.

Of the guys you mentioned, Bozon is the only one I would have drafted at all. Athanasiou strikes me as a guy who will just never put it together. He showed flashes throughout the season, but not even too many. As for Ebert, there's a reason he went from being a consensus top 10 player to being passed almost entirely. Zero hockey sense. Someone with such a limited capacity for the game will never be more than a bottom pairing guy, and it's unlikely he even gets there.

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