1. Several things strike me about this article. First off, its pretty dated at this point oct 2011. using that, you argue for Gormley having an increased value from his 29 rank, i would agree that he has gone up. but i would also argue rundblad has slipped.
Fair enough. I simply used it as illustration that Coyote fans are not being homers when we say Rundblad and Gormley are elite level prospects. They are certainly not far off OEL's level.
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More importantly i think that when the article was written it was RNH+larsson and then everyone else. Now i think that OEL is in that group of players, and then a major drop off occurs. I think that yakupov would easily fit into the same echelon of players and most likely grigorenko as well.
That's opinion. My opinion is that Yakupov is not in the same echelon of players like RNH and OEL who have already established themselves at a higher level and are ready to be No.1 players.
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Your arguement was Rundblad is very close to OEL, therefore he should work in this deal, but if they are close, why are you so against trading OEL? I targeted him because i think he clearly is a much better player.
The point was to show you how highly rated Rundblad was himself.
OEL is clearly much further along in his development. As I said, he's comparable to Taylor Hall. Rundblad and Gormley are better comparables to the top forwards in this draft.
To flip it round, Rundblad would not get Taylor Hall. Grigorenko doesnt get OEL. They are just not directly comparable.
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2. I think that's the only similarity between between your two suggested classes of players. Even then, the edge could be given to the draft eligable forwards. Yakupov will 100% be in the NHL next year, many think he'd be playing this year if he was eligible, and i'd bet on Grig as a full-timer ahead of Gormley and Rundblad.
The difference is in high end. Gormley ad Rundblad are really good prosects...like Scheifele, Zibenjad, Johansen, Strome...maybe even Huberdeau, although im sure Panther fans would screech at that thought. OEL is an elite level Dman, similar to the reality of top-2 selected forwards in the past 10 years.
Its much much easier to make the jump as a forward than a defenseman. Just making the NHL isnt going to impress me. I just dont buy into the hype, I would place Yakupov and Grigorenko in the same group as guys like Johansen and Huberdeau and not above them.
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3. Yes turris was a 3rd OV pick, there is often a drop-off at 3-5, and 2007 was a very weak draft, and i included JVR in my summary as the the tiny chance you don't get a great player (and there is always a tiny chance that current players regress). Turris also played Junior A, i imagine his junior stats in the CHL would have been much less impressive than Yakupov and Grigorenko
Turris was considered to be in an interchangeable top 3 with Kane and JVR. Similarly last year there was certainly no agreement on the top 2 players.
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4. Would you trade OEL for Hall? Most people think Yakupov is ahead of Hall, I will admit i prefer hall, although entirely based on sentimental value and intangibles.
Yes. I've said as much in a OEL-Hall thread recently.
Im no expert but I dont like Yakupov as much as Hall as either, I think there's a significant risk he wont be an elite player. Like I said, this draft reminds me a lot of 2008 where Filatov was the 2nd best forward available.
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5. My position is not based on thinking these forwards are bad, but that, my team is loaded with forwards and needs an elite level Dman ASAP. If we use the pick i want Murray, but if we can trade the pick for a better Dman than Murray that's obviously ideal.
I understand your position, we've had quite a few edmonton fans after OEL in the last few months. But nobody here thinks its realistic. Gormley and Rundblad are more appropriate targets.
We're just veering off into opinions now so probably should let the thread get back on topic - this stuff should be in a trade proposal thread.
Automatic stars? Not really. For every Spezza there's a Lawton, Svitov, Fata, Brendl, Daigle or Stefan. Try as you might, you aren't going to convince anyone that the #2 pick is worth more than OEL. There's a very good reason that young stars plying their trade successfully are rarely traded for hockey reasons.
To quote a great movie
Well i don't know the entire history of the draft, but i did comprehensively look at top-2 selected forwards from 2001-2011, and JVR is pretty much the only somewhat disappointing forward taken. Scouting has come along way, and the top junior players are often NHL ready due to advances in training and nutrition since the 90's, which is where i suspect your examples are from.
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll
We're just veering off into opinions now so probably should let the thread get back on topic - this stuff should be in a trade proposal thread.
Trade proposals have too much flaming.
Stupid Oiler fans think we should get OEL for Gagner, or OEL+Gormley+1st for Yakupov.
People on these boards value draft picks and prospects a bit too much at times. The teams are drafting players hoping they will become what OEL is now.
People on these boards value draft picks and prospects a bit too much at times. The teams are drafting players hoping they will become what OEL is now.
The prevailing attitude is that almost every first rounder is going to be a stud but the fact is in reality it's exactly the opposite.
Remember that game a few weeks ago where nearly every forward on our team was taken in the top thirty of their draft? I think maybe Vrbata was the only one.
Remember that game a few weeks ago where nearly every forward on our team was taken in the top thirty of their draft? I think maybe Vrbata was the only one.
Vermette was taken in the second round, I don't know if you're counting him in though.
Nope. Just top thirty picks, and Vermette wasn't on the team at the time. Once we are fully healthy *crossesfingers* we should hqve ten first round forwards and one first round healthy scratch helping Bissonnette eat his nachos. Haha.
A lot of firsts on D, too. OEL, Klesla, Rundblad, Summers, and Morris.
Nope. Just top thirty picks, and Vermette wasn't on the team at the time. Once we are fully healthy *crossesfingers* we should hqve ten first round forwards and one first round healthy scratch helping Bissonnette eat his nachos. Haha.
A lot of firsts on D, too. OEL, Klesla, Rundblad, Summers, and Morris.
If I were to have seen this team on paper say..three years ago, I would've **** my pants. I would've **** bricks. Better yet, **** cinder blocks.
Ok, to take the "anxiety" away from this gut-wrenching down the stretch playoff push, let's talk some prospects.
If you had a choice between the following players, who would it be and why?
Radek Faksa
Zemgus Girgensons
Sebastian Collberg
Pontus Aberg
Tomas Hertl
My Answer: I have watched these players a couple of times each, and was really impressed with Hertl at the WJs and I really like Girgensons. Those two would be my choice and if pressed, I'd take Hertl as I generally like czech players who play his style of game which fits DT's style of play. (Although I've flipped back and forth between these two several times over the past 3 months) I don't think he's a PPG player, but a 50-60pt player would be a revelation
Tough call. I'd really like a center so that probably biases me against Aberg and Collberg. Hertl was so freaking good at the WJC and Faksa was so piss poor that I'm sure my view is way, way too slanted there as well. Gigensons seems a little too safe and is USHL production has not been impressive. I mean compare him to Jaden Schwartz and other highly touted USHL kids in recent years.
EDIT: actually his production isn't far off from Okposo or Max Pac who both put up only bit over PPG in the USHL in their draft year's. Schwartz was just a freak.
Ok, to take the "anxiety" away from this gut-wrenching down the stretch playoff push, let's talk some prospects.
If you had a choice between the following players, who would it be and why?
Radek Faksa
Zemgus Girgensons
Sebastian Collberg
Pontus Aberg
Tomas Hertl
My Answer: I have watched these players a couple of times each, and was really impressed with Hertl at the WJs and I really like Girgensons. Those two would be my choice and if pressed, I'd take Hertl as I generally like czech players who play his style of game which fits DT's style of play. (Although I've flipped back and forth between these two several times over the past 3 months) I don't think he's a PPG player, but a 50-60pt player would be a revelation
The order that you have them listed seems like a consensus ranking among scouting services and HF posters. I would probably stick with that order myself.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of picking Teravainen. It sounds like he has an elite level of skill and sense that these other guys might be lacking. He's the same height as Aberg but 30 lbs lighter which could be a problem, but he's also a year younger.
I just saw Timothy Bozon's stat line for this season and it got my interest. He has 36 goals and 35 assists in 71 games in the WHL this year and he's plus 27. Since I hadn't heard anything about him and his name rarely comes up in draft rankings I figured there must be something wrong with his playing style. I only found this one report on him and it has nothing but good things to say about his game. He's got size, speed, vision and is a true sniper. I wonder what he'll have to do in the playoffs to make himself a first rounder in June.
So, if we end up the 7th or 8th seed, it looks likely that we will pick 17th or 18th.
17 or 18 should see a few good forwards on the board.
At least one of Collberg, Aberg, Gaunce, Girgensons, Faksa or Hertl should be there.
Collberg and Faksa being the least likely, in my opinion.
At that spot I think most of us would be happy with any of Aberg, Gaunce, Girgensons or Hertl. There will probably only be one on the board, anyhow.
Can we rank the players by hockey sense and/or offensive potential? Rick Knickle looks for hockey sense first. Any players who lack that element of creativity will drop on our list.
Wow, I've never seen us agree so easily. I also would pass on Gaunce and be happy with any of those other players. Aberg and Collberg are probably tops on my list, I have a soft spot for Swedes
