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#14 Kings v Sharks 11/7/11 - LOSS, POST GAME THOUGHTS & TIDBITS

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11-08-2011, 01:37 AM
  #126
BD33
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Frustration is building, maybe the players don't like Murray either and are losing just to get him fired. OR we just suck.....either way my drinking is slowly increasing to an unhealthy level. I might be in AA before this season is over

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11-08-2011, 01:39 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Alternate Jersey View Post
simple and elegant idea. why hasn't it been tried?
at the same time, though, i really hate to punish kopitar for his stellar play by throwing an unproductive winger on his line.
Was Penner or Brown on Kopitar's line last year? It just seems like they would have better experience with Kopitar and maybe he could get them jump started. I don't think Gagne is exactly connecting a lot with Kopitar either. They've had goals, but I think there could benefits for both lines with a switch.

Why work on creating chemistry with players if the chemistry is already there between other players?

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11-08-2011, 01:40 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
His exact quote

Those numbers are IRRELEVANT to any type of conclusion he would want to draw. BECAUSE those numbers are under a different system, with a different team, with a different coach.

Would he be bringing Wellwood up to us if he had say....gone to the Rangers? and played 10 minutes a game and sucked? Probably not. Ergo the use of Wellwoods NUMBERS don't support any type of point you would be trying to make about the system.

AGAIN, if you want to argue that our system is faulty or relies on a very specific type of player that doesn't seem effective, by all means, I agree with that. There isn't enough skill. But again, to use, of all people, Kyle Wellwood, and compare his Winnipeg numbers to Ethan Moreau and his KINGS...it's just dumb.
i get what you're saying, and you're right, but i think Ziggy's point is still being missed a little bit. i think Ziggy was trying to say that passing on kyle wellwood is symptomatic of what he thinks is a poor culture set up by DL. i believe that by saying that by passing on wellwood and getting moreau instead, he continues to reinforce the size over skill culture. that really won't change until, at the very least, TM's style of play is phased out, and perhaps not even until DL is no longer the GM of the kings. and so for that reason, the numbers really are irrelevant. but supposing we could change the culture now, and begin that process by putting out skill over size, getting wellwood rather than moreau would have been the right move.

again though, you are both right in your own ways.

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11-08-2011, 01:42 AM
  #129
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Those numbers are IRRELEVANT to any type of conclusion he would want to draw. BECAUSE those numbers are under a different system, with a different team, with a different coach.

Would he be bringing Wellwood up to us if he had say....gone to the Rangers? and played 10 minutes a game and sucked? Probably not. Ergo the use of Wellwoods NUMBERS don't support any type of point you would be trying to make about the system.

AGAIN, if you want to argue that our system is faulty or relies on a very specific type of player that doesn't seem effective, by all means, I agree with that. There isn't enough skill. But again, to use, of all people, Kyle Wellwood, and compare his Winnipeg numbers to Ethan Moreau and his KINGS numbers...it's just dumb.


I mean for the love of god, just straight up say, like most of us do, "Wow DL hasn't opted for much skill to fill out the rest of the lineup, and it's really showing."

I think most of us can agree to that.
How is it irrelevant when you compare their salaries and the fact that both were free agents and throughout the summer there was a group who was suggesting the Kings sign Wellwood for a bottom six role and to bring some skill to the lower lines.

That is what he provided on the Sharks and Canucks and exactly what the Kings needed. They had a choice at that time of Wellwood or Moreau, and they elected to go for the bigger player because they thought they needed to replace the size they lost in Handzus and Ponikarovsky. And lo and behold, they added a big stiff who takes bad penalties. I guess he fits within this system.

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11-08-2011, 01:43 AM
  #130
Jason Lewis
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Originally Posted by Alternate Jersey View Post
i get what you're saying, and you're right, but i think Ziggy's point is still being missed a little bit. i think Ziggy was trying to say that passing on kyle wellwood is symptomatic of what he thinks is a poor culture set up by DL. i believe that by saying that by passing on wellwood and getting moreau instead, he continues to reinforce the size over skill culture. that really won't change until, at the very least, TM's style of play is phased out, and perhaps not even until DL is no longer the GM of the kings. and so for that reason, the numbers really are irrelevant. but supposing we could change the culture now, and begin that process by putting out skill over size, getting wellwood rather than moreau would have been the right move.

again though, you are both right in your own ways.
I think you've done well to bridge the gap in thought Alt.

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11-08-2011, 01:44 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Alternate Jersey View Post
i get what you're saying, and you're right, but i think Ziggy's point is still being missed a little bit. i think Ziggy was trying to say that passing on kyle wellwood is symptomatic of what he thinks is a poor culture set up by DL. i believe that by saying that by passing on wellwood and getting moreau instead, he continues to reinforce the size over skill culture. that really won't change until, at the very least, TM's style of play is phased out, and perhaps not even until DL is no longer the GM of the kings. and so for that reason, the numbers really are irrelevant. but supposing we could change the culture now, and begin that process by putting out skill over size, getting wellwood rather than moreau would have been the right move.

again though, you are both right in your own ways.
Again though, in the last 2 years what "meaningful" players have been size over skill??

The physical presence JW?
Gagne the Goon?
The 5'10 skill less Richards?
Or the Marshmallow Penner?

Yea, a player that was supposed to be signed for the 3rd/4th line is a grinder...didn't everyone want a replacement for Simmonds? That isn't Wellwood.

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11-08-2011, 01:45 AM
  #132
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In the top 6 right now, what player would you say is size over skill?
Well, I would say Penner, but he doesn't use any of that size and he is demonstrating zero skill. Brown used to use that size but he's become irrelevant, a complete non-factor. Going with Stoll over Loktionov is an example of that. I can say with confidence that Loktionov would help this team a lot more than Stoll is right now.

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11-08-2011, 01:45 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
His exact quote




Those numbers are IRRELEVANT to any type of conclusion he would want to draw. BECAUSE those numbers are under a different system, with a different team, with a different coach.

Would he be bringing Wellwood up to us if he had say....gone to the Rangers? and played 10 minutes a game and sucked? Probably not. Ergo the use of Wellwoods NUMBERS don't support any type of point you would be trying to make about the system.

AGAIN, if you want to argue that our system is faulty or relies on a very specific type of player that doesn't seem effective, by all means, I agree with that. There isn't enough skill. But again, to use, of all people, Kyle Wellwood, and compare his Winnipeg numbers to Ethan Moreau and his KINGS numbers...it's just dumb.


I mean for the love of god, just straight up say, like most of us do, "Wow DL hasn't opted for much skill to fill out the rest of the lineup, and it's really showing."

I think most of us can agree to that.
What I say here is "wow, this organization is building the team in a wrong way, they lack skill and it's showing. Players like Wellwood in your bottom six are necessary to have a successful team. The system does not allow for bottom six skill players or even players who don't want to cycle the puck, therefore it is faulty. The system the GM and coach have chosen to employ is backwards and detrimental to this team's success. Something needs to be done about that sooner or later."

It isn't even an option to employ skill in the current NHL.

Either you do it and win. Boston doesn't have statistically flashy players but there is skill all over their lineup. They got goals from everywhere last season.

Or you don't employ skill and you fail. It's simple as that man.

We are talking about moving our best winger and second best goal scorer onto the second line because playing his game is not even an option at this point because of how the team was built. He's having a hard time cycling the puck and it shows. A 35-40 goal guy we're talking about here. That's a huge problem for me.

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11-08-2011, 01:46 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
How is it irrelevant when you compare their salaries and the fact that both were free agents and throughout the summer there was a group who was suggesting the Kings sign Wellwood for a bottom six role and to bring some skill to the lower lines.

That is what he provided on the Sharks and Canucks and exactly what the Kings needed. They had a choice at that time of Wellwood or Moreau, and they elected to go for the bigger player because they thought they needed to replace the size they lost in Handzus and Ponikarovsky. And lo and behold, they added a big stiff who takes bad penalties. I guess he fits within this system.
It's irrelevant because you compared current numbers.

Wellwood signing here to our bottom 6 completely changes his numbers and output. He is playing top-6 in Winnipeg, and on the powerplay. His numbers are inflated.

It's irrelevant to bring up ANY type of production he would be having with the Jets because it doesn't AT ALL mean he would be having that type of production with US.

and that point is what alt is talking about. Yes, if you want to argue that the selection of size over skill is an issue then so be it. But to bring up the numbers of Wellwood, again, in Winnipeg, with a different system, coach, role, team. It doesn't get your point across.

It's just simply saying "oh we could have signed him instead, he is doing better."

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11-08-2011, 01:49 AM
  #135
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I think you've done well to bridge the gap in thought Alt.
thanks, pal.

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Again though, in the last 2 years what "meaningful" players have been size over skill??

The physical presence JW?
Gagne the Goon?
The 5'10 skill less Richards?
Or the Marshmallow Penner?

Yea, a player that was supposed to be signed for the 3rd/4th line is a grinder...didn't everyone want a replacement for Simmonds? That isn't Wellwood.
i didn't mean for my post to imply that i think we should have signed wellwood over moreau. i was simply trying to clear up what seems to confounding the discussion on the matter.

that being said, i wouldn't immediately say that moreau is a better replacement for simmonds than wellwood would have been. but i don't know enough about either moreau (yet) or wellwood to make that call, as i haven't seen either of them play nearly as much as i have simmonds.

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11-08-2011, 01:49 AM
  #136
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Well, I would say Penner, but he doesn't use any of that size and he is demonstrating zero skill. Brown used to use that size but he's become irrelevant, a complete non-factor.
Thats my point....Penner definitely wasn't brought in for size...he just happens to be big. He was definitely a "skill" pick-up...who woulda thought his production would make it look the other way around? And Brown is also 5'10" so not sure about the "size" but he was also inherited by DL as well as being pretty "skilled" when he is actually "on".

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11-08-2011, 01:50 AM
  #137
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What I say here is "wow, this organization is building the team in a wrong way, they lack skill and it's showing. Players like Wellwood in your bottom six are necessary to have a successful team. The system does not allow for bottom six skill players or even players who don't want to cycle the puck, therefore it is faulty. The system the GM and coach have chosen to employ is backwards and detrimental to this team's success. Something needs to be done about that sooner or later."

It isn't even an option to employ skill in the current NHL.

Either you do it and win. Boston doesn't have statistically flashy players but there is skill all over their lineup. They got goals from everywhere last season.

Or you don't employ skill and you fail. It's simple as that man.

We are talking about moving our best winger and second best goal scorer onto the second line because playing his game is not even an option at this point because of how the team was built. He's having a hard time cycling the puck and it shows. A 35-40 goal guy we're talking about here. That's a huge problem for me.

And to this point I completely agree. It's stated well. Arguing Wellwoods numbers is grasping at straws. If you want to blame the system, blame the system, like you did in this post. Don't bring up that Wellwood has 5 goals and Moreau none. They really have nothing to do with each other in their current state. And if you replaced Wellwood with Moreau here..directly across, he wouldn't be the same as he is for the Jets.

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11-08-2011, 01:53 AM
  #138
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Might I point out though that Wellwood really isn't as suitable as one would hope in a bottom 6 which is what he would play here. He is god awful defensively.

But that's another argument for another day.

I agree. More skill would be nice over grinders with litttle to no skill like Moreau, Richardson, Lewy, Penner, and Clifford. (and I like some of these guys)

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11-08-2011, 01:54 AM
  #139
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It's irrelevant because you compared current numbers.

Wellwood signing here to our bottom 6 completely changes his numbers and output. He is playing top-6 in Winnipeg, and on the powerplay. His numbers are inflated.

It's irrelevant to bring up ANY type of production he would be having with the Jets because it doesn't AT ALL mean he would be having that type of production with US.

and that point is what alt is talking about. Yes, if you want to argue that the selection of size over skill is an issue then so be it. But to bring up the numbers of Wellwood, again, in Winnipeg, with a different system, coach, role, team. It doesn't get your point across.

It's just simply saying "oh we could have signed him instead, he is doing better."
Well, those numbers are an indisputable fact, and Wellwood's linemates aren't exactly setting the world on fire with their numbers either. He's averaging 14:38 of ice time, that is 15th on the Jets, or 7th most among their forwards. FYI, Stoll averages over 16 mins of ice time.

My point is that Wellwood could do more and provide more to this team than what Moreau brings. Are you going to dispute that? Just look at Wellwood's previous work in San Jose and Vancouver. He was performing very well in a third line role with both clubs.

Perhaps he wouldn't work out in Terry Murray's jurrasic style of coaching, however, Lombardi opting to go with a broken down 36 year old winger on the downside of his career is reminiscent of his other stellar signings such as Scott Thornton and Kyle Calder.

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11-08-2011, 01:54 AM
  #140
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when they were trading them away (Cammalleri, Purcell), misusing them (Frolov) or just not offering them anything (Moulson) not many of you said $@@#. ya'll drank the kool-aid and said that those players were replaceable and 1-deminsional. now you're seeing the flaws in that line of thinking... good!!

now we just have to wait for Toffoli, Weal and Kytsin to develop because thats the only way this club is getting talented scorers and even when they're ready i expect them to be used the way Loktionov has been used.
could you please take my GF off your avatar! before things get ugly!

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11-08-2011, 01:55 AM
  #141
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Well, I would say Penner, but he doesn't use any of that size and he is demonstrating zero skill. Brown used to use that size but he's become irrelevant, a complete non-factor. Going with Stoll over Loktionov is an example of that. I can say with confidence that Loktionov would help this team a lot more than Stoll is right now.
I'll quote again since you edited....

Stoll over Loki is a move 95% of the GM's in the league make....Stoll has put up ~45 pt season the last 3 years, I bet DL (and the fans)were expecting near the same. A player doesn't play up to his ability there is only so much a GM can do. A few players that have proven track records of preforming at a consistent basis aren't, so not sure how thats on DL.

Also I warn many of the fans on here of overrating the unseen, it wasn't to long ago that people thought Martinez could replace DD/JJ now people want his head....the assumption that VV/AL could just "take" NHL roster spots is a path to disappointment.

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11-08-2011, 01:58 AM
  #142
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Might I point out though that Wellwood really isn't as suitable as one would hope in a bottom 6 which is what he would play here. He is god awful defensively.

But that's another argument for another day.
San Jose had one of the most efficient third lines last season with Mitchell, Pavelski and Wellwood. Prior to that, Wellwood was a pivotal part of Vancouver's third line. They're an organization that has had scoring support throughout its lineup, and he was a part of that. That is exactly what the Kings are lacking now.

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11-08-2011, 02:01 AM
  #143
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Really Ethan, is the least of the Kings problems right now. Kyle Wellwood is not a solution. He would be an offensive black Hole in Murray's system.

They would ask him to do what Ethan is doing(Hit, Play D, Forecheck).

The Players do not make the System here in LA. Terry Murray does

That is the root of the problem. More so Dean Also.

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11-08-2011, 02:01 AM
  #144
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I'll quote again since you edited....

Stoll over Loki is a move 95% of the GM's in the league make....Stoll has put up ~45 pt season the last 3 years, I bet DL (and the fans)were expecting near the same. A player doesn't play up to his ability there is only so much a GM can do. A few players that have proven track records of preforming at a consistent basis aren't, so not sure how thats on DL.

Also I warn many of the fans on here of overrating the unseen, it wasn't to long ago that people thought Martinez could replace DD/JJ now people want his head....the assumption that VV/AL could just "take" NHL roster spots is a path to disappointment.
Given Stoll's performance as we speak right now, I would say that proven track record is becoming meaningless. He is not helping the Kings win games. He's a warm body taking up $3.6M in cap space.

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11-08-2011, 02:01 AM
  #145
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Not having a #1 defenseman is killing us right now.

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11-08-2011, 02:02 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
San Jose had one of the most efficient third lines last season with Mitchell, Pavelski and Wellwood. Prior to that, Wellwood was a pivotal part of Vancouver's third line. They're an organization that has had scoring support throughout its lineup, and he was a part of that. That is exactly what the Kings are lacking now.
At the same time, there's a reason that the Sharks didn't bring him back this year and he could only secure a contract with Winnipeg in September.

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11-08-2011, 02:03 AM
  #147
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Really Ethan, is the least of the Kings problems right now. Kyle Wellwood is not a solution. He would be an offensive black Hole in Murray's system.

They would ask him to do what Ethan is doing(Hit, Play D, Forecheck).

The Players do not make the System here in LA. Terry Murray does

That is the root of the problem. More so Dean Also.
And that right there is the problem.

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11-08-2011, 02:03 AM
  #148
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Not having a #1 defenseman is killing us right now.
That too, Although Jack has played well. Despite the Horror that is his Plus Minus rating.

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11-08-2011, 02:03 AM
  #149
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Well, those numbers are an indisputable fact, and Wellwood's linemates aren't exactly setting the world on fire with their numbers either. He's averaging 14:38 of ice time, that is 15th on the Jets, or 7th most among their forwards. FYI, Stoll averages over 16 mins of ice time.
Sorry but those numbers ARE disputable.

AGAIN...and I can't stop saying this enough, you are missing my point...THOSE NUMBERS ARE WITH WINNIPEG, WITH A DIFFERENT COACH/SYSTEM/TEAM/ROLE.

You can say all you want about he is scoring this many points. But it's in Winnipeg dude. They are disputable. You are acting like he would have 5 goals and 4 assists right now, on the Kings. He wouldn't. For all we know, the opposite transpires, Moreau plays there, Wellwood here, and Moreau is the one with 9 points. You can't say that those numbers are indisputable. They are very much disputable.

Also, yea he brought skill to San Jose and Vancouver, but he is a tweener. Why do you think all the teams he has played for haven't resigned him? or let him go? Toronto? San Jose? Vancouver? He isn't super defensively responsible..and he wouldn't have enough skill to even be in our top 6. He would get lost in the mire of our bottom 6 and probably end up LIKE Lewy, Stoll, and Richardson, with little production, getting pounded on by other teams top lines. He has enough skill to be in the role he is in Winnipeg because they are so thin offensively.

And despite how poor a season Ladd and Little have had so far, they are still better then anyone we have in the bottom 6 right now, and a few in the top 6. And also Wellwood has played several games with Evander Kane as well.

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11-08-2011, 02:04 AM
  #150
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Murray:
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I’ll say this. Before the fourth goal, Rob Scuderi is lucky he didn’t break his leg. That’s how players end their careers. I’ve seen players end their career that way. That’s why the NHL talks about the automatic icing. That is a penalty. That is embarrassing that that’s not called. That was deliberate.’’
This i agree with. I went back and looked at the play, and Couture just took the skates right out from under Scuds before the 4th goal. Scuds was in such a bad position, I'm really surprised he didn't get hurt.

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