What exactally makes you think if he can't turn it around that he will get us a top 4 Dman? It's funny how people are basically done with Comeau and Bailey, and getting there with Okposo, and some how they're not good enough to be on the Island but they're good enough to get us a top 4 Dman? The more these guys games suffer the lesser the return will be or more prospects will have to be sent along with them to get a top 4 Dman.
At this point if you can't get a real good deal(which I doubt is out there) it doesn't make sense to not just let him develop more over the next few years and see what happens. I personally just think a night in the press box is much more in order then finding a teade partner at age 23.
I actually think the potential is still there; I just think that as it stands, we could expect similar production AND meaner, more aggressive play from Niederreiter, while Okie & Bailey, as the greatest calamities of step one in a rebuild, could still excel - growing slower with less pressure in a deeper team with a different coach.
It isn't that I demand KO be traded; just that Comeau, Okie & Niederreiter are all varying styles of 'power forward,' and Niederreiter has a slightly higher ceiling in the eyes of many, along with the fact that he plays aggressive.....at the same time that the Isles are dealing with a logjam in the forward group.
I put a thread up a few nights ago on the trade board to assess what people would be willing to give up for Okposo (primarily Western teams)....if the Ducks were willing to give up Luca Sbisa (the only younger player I'd take for Okie) or the Kings willing to send back Matt Greene (28, righty-D, 6'3", 235 lbs.), couldn't that be a worthy trade, since Nino could step into that #2/#3 RW spot?
I actually think the potential is still there; I just think that as it stands, we could expect similar production AND meaner, more aggressive play from Niederreiter, while Okie & Bailey, as the greatest calamities of step one in a rebuild, could still excel - growing slower with less pressure in a deeper team with a different coach.
It isn't that I demand KO be traded; just that Comeau, Okie & Niederreiter are all varying styles of 'power forward,' and Niederreiter has a slightly higher ceiling in the eyes of many, along with the fact that he plays aggressive.....at the same time that the Isles are dealing with a logjam in the forward group.
I put a thread up a few nights ago on the trade board to assess what people would be willing to give up for Okposo (primarily Western teams)....if the Ducks were willing to give up Luca Sbisa (the only younger player I'd take for Okie) or the Kings willing to send back Matt Greene (28, righty-D, 6'3", 235 lbs.), couldn't that be a worthy trade, since Nino could step into that #2/#3 RW spot?
No, I'll hold onto as many big scorers as I can and try and fix the obvious - add a top six vet or two like we should have last year.
We have to stop making excuses for the cheapskates and demand quality sooner or later.
I stopped going to games, I rant and excoriate the bad decisions. What is everyone else doing? I see far, far too much complacency and defense of mediocrity or worse.
Wanna be patient with the Detroit Lions? Go right ahead. We'll suck forever with some hope sprinkled in here and there to sell hope.
Where's our quality top six veteran leader? Why could the Pens do it, the Hawks do it and last place Philly do it? Why can we not do it?
No, I'll hold onto as many big scorers as I can and try and fix the obvious - add a top six vet or two like we should have last year.
We have to stop making excuses for the cheapskates and demand quality sooner or later.
I stopped going to games, I rant and excoriate the bad decisions. What is everyone else doing? I see far, far too much complacency and defense of mediocrity or worse.
Wanna be patient with the Detroit Lions? Go right ahead. We'll suck forever with some hope sprinkled in here and there to sell hope.
Where's our quality top six veteran leader? Why could the Pens do it, the Hawks do it and last place Philly do it? Why can we not do it?
The excuses are brewing.
"No try - DO." - K.Miyagi.
I don't think we're that drastically different in opinions.
I am going to get nuked for this, but here's a possibility regarding a top six veteran leader:
Okposo's upside, the possibility of a willingness to roll the dice on trading for him in another organization with cap trouble, and fact that there's only so much space in the overcrowded-yet-currently-ineffective top-9 make a package built around Okposo potentially valuable enough to pinch a NON-TREVOR LINDEN/RYAN SMYTH presence for the top-6.
The team has more going for it now. Someone coming in could have the chance to play with John Tavares. All three goalies are playing better than fair so far, there's young talent ready to hit the roster soon, and there's only two on-ice personnel changes needed to stabilize things here: a vet under 30 for the top-6 and a vet under 30 for the top-4 on the blueline. If they can catch the right player on the right deal, there are more reasons to stick around and be professional without someone pulling a Kirk Muller. Maybe not by as much as I'd like there to be, but despite how crappy of an owner Wang is, he treats the players he actually pays well.
I don't care if Snow would have to go over Wang's head to do it (wow...phrasing...), but a player with an effect like Dustin Brown or Brooks Laich would transform the top-6 immediately; suddenly, it's young center approaching elite, fastest skater, high-end defensive center, AND veteran righting shottie. Add a fair D-man for the top-4 and the same thing happens there. Are these differences worth losing Bailey, Okposo, Comeau and a few picks when guys like Cizikas, Niederreiter, Donovan, deHaan, and DiBenedetto are ramping up to take those positions having all had better developement (maybe except for Comeau)? I say yes.
No, I'll hold onto as many big scorers as I can and try and fix the obvious - add a top six vet or two like we should have last year.
We have to stop making excuses for the cheapskates and demand quality sooner or later.
I stopped going to games, I rant and excoriate the bad decisions. What is everyone else doing? I see far, far too much complacency and defense of mediocrity or worse.
Wanna be patient with the Detroit Lions? Go right ahead. We'll suck forever with some hope sprinkled in here and there to sell hope.
Where's our quality top six veteran leader? Why could the Pens do it, the Hawks do it and last place Philly do it? Why can we not do it?
The excuses are brewing.
"No try - DO." - K.Miyagi.
Just so we get it straight, "last place Philly" was only a one season occurance. They made the playoffs from 94-95 through 05-06, with never less then 93 points(outside lockout95). Then, after one down season they've made the playoffs 4 years in a row. So thats 15 playoff apperances in 16 years for "last place Philly". Not the same sell as "last plae Long Island".
Chicago only made the playoffs once over the course of 10 years(and Daze was their leading scorer, Zhamnov second). When they made the playoffs for the first time with the new team they have(after 5 more years of no playoffs) their only forwards over 25 who played more then 40 games were Sharp and Havlat(who they signed after 2 years of injuries). On D it was Sopel and Campbell. They weren't loaded with all these quality veterans.
I'm not saying that I agree with how this team has been run but people always look at other teams and say "well they did it" as if they were in the same situation as the Islanders. Last place Philly with a beautiful new building, in a big city, with a lot of money and having made the playoffs a decade straight beofre a last place finish is not the same as getting a player to come to Long Island. It's just different and drawing paralells isn't fair in my opinion.
That's not making excuses. I'm not happy about this slow start either. But there is the reality of being an Islander fan and thinking that we can be Philly just isn't true. Chicago took a decade to get it right. Philly had one down year. Pitt drafted 1(Fleury), 2(Malkin), 1(Crosby), 2(Stall) four years in a row. Crosby was the face of the NHL the day he was drafted. Crosby sells himself. Who wouldn't want to play with the best player in the planet?
Plain and simple the Isles HAVE to overpay for any player they're going to get, and Wang doesn't even really want to pay for the team he has being it's at the cap floor with loop holes. I can't believe Garth wants to have a bad team. It's a shame but in the end money is the only way to get a guy here, more moeny then they would deserve and Wang won't sign on the bottom left line for that. It's not an excuse but a sad reality. We're not Chicago, Philly or Pittsburgh.
Just so we get it straight, "last place Philly" was only a one season occurance. They made the playoffs from 94-95 through 05-06, with never less then 93 points(outside lockout95). Then, after one down season they've made the playoffs 4 years in a row. So thats 15 playoff apperances in 16 years for "last place Philly". Not the same sell as "last plae Long Island".
Chicago only made the playoffs once over the course of 10 years(and Daze was their leading scorer, Zhamnov second). When they made the playoffs for the first time with the new team they have(after 5 more years of no playoffs) their only forwards over 25 who played more then 40 games were Sharp and Havlat(who they signed after 2 years of injuries). On D it was Sopel and Campbell. They weren't loaded with all these quality veterans.
I'm not saying that I agree with how this team has been run but people always look at other teams and say "well they did it" as if they were in the same situation as the Islanders. Last place Philly with a beautiful new building, in a big city, with a lot of money and having made the playoffs a decade straight beofre a last place finish is not the same as getting a player to come to Long Island. It's just different and drawing paralells isn't fair in my opinion.
That's not making excuses. I'm not happy about this slow start either. But there is the reality of being an Islander fan and thinking that we can be Philly just isn't true. Chicago took a decade to get it right. Philly had one down year. Pitt drafted 1(Fleury), 2(Malkin), 1(Crosby), 2(Stall) four years in a row. Crosby was the face of the NHL the day he was drafted. Crosby sells himself. Who wouldn't want to play with the best player in the planet?
Plain and simple the Isles HAVE to overpay for any player they're going to get, and Wang doesn't even really want to pay for the team he has being it's at the cap floor with loop holes. I can't believe Garth wants to have a bad team. It's a shame but in the end money is the only way to get a guy here, more moeny then they would deserve and Wang won't sign on the bottom left line for that. It's not an excuse but a sad reality. We're not Chicago, Philly or Pittsburgh.
The difference between teams like Philly and NYI is ownership and their willingness to spend and demand results.
That said, hockey is cyclical. The F'ers missed the playoffs once in the past 16 years, but from 1989-1994 they missed 5 straight times. Still, ownership did not abandon them, did not cut payroll or dump their best players.
NYI is different because their ownership is not committed to winning beyond saying that it is. But Wang finds every means to spend well below the cap floor using buyout money, bonus money what ever gimmick he can. The actual cap salary is about $38MM. Teams like Philly will never stop trying to win, and spend what is necessary, even when the hard times come around.
And one more thing. When I criticized Okposo during his first year for not being physical, I was attacked on thsi board for being too hard on a "young kid". Well this is the NHL, and if kids are big and strong enough to play here, they are expected to play the body or they should not be here. Maybe not every player such as Tavares, but kids built like Okposo have to take the body. they dont have to fight, but they do have to hit.
Okposo just does not have any snarl in his game, and now his desire is gone also.
Those who saw the next Jarome Iginla were really comparing their looks.
I suspect a major thread of what he's going through is mental--confidence in his skills, and confidence in his body after sustaining and rehabbing a traumatic injury. My guess is he's overthinking, which creates little flaws (e.g. losing pucks, hesitant to try moves), and those little flaws reinforce his confidence issues. Player's skill doesn't just vanish, usually there's a barrier getting in the way, e.g. mental.
I have my biases for KO, but putting those aside, don't give up on him. He's young, and has demonstrated he can put up points--the pigeon-holing is getting ridiculous. Too bad he doesn't have some veterans to fall back on.
And I don't think I can envision him ever being an impact player, at least on the Island.
Someone over at the trade thread had mentioned Kuba, Foligno, Lee and a 2nd for Kyle.
At this point, I'd take that and run.
I haven't gone that far yet.
Gotta ask for more than that, especially from a team that could deny the Islanders a playoff spot. Value goes up too high for another team in the east to make the move.
I'm not in a rush to move Kyle, but since Niederreiter is similar, meaner and has a higher offensive ceiling on top of having been better developed, I'd rather see Okposo's value increase enough to bring back someone we know we need, and then Nino easily takes his place.
I just think that Kyle may benefit by being in a team with an older core where he's closer to the base of the 'leadership pyramid.' Having an 'A' means little if you're not getting your team's tread happening.
The guy I'd like to get is Matt Greene (Kings.)
Last edited by 88th Precinct: 11-09-2011 at 09:44 PM.
im glad our GM has more patience than most of you. If it were up to this board we'd have kuba, lee, foligno, dibo, and ullstrom in the lineup instead of okposo, bailey, comeau, rolston, and pandolfo.....
im glad our GM has more patience than most of you. If it were up to this board we'd have kuba, lee, foligno, dibo, and ullstrom in the lineup instead of okposo, bailey, comeau, rolston, and pandolfo.....
surely thats the recipe for success. :::
As if the recipe now is working...
Not saying that Okposo proposal is a good thing, but a move(s) needs to be done if they would like to somewhat salvage the season. Instead we're looking at another top 5 if not top 3 pick and no closer to making the playoffs in the foreseeable future.
Not saying that Okposo proposal is a good thing, but a move(s) needs to be done if they would like to somewhat salvage the season. Instead we're looking at another top 5 if not top 3 pick and no closer to making the playoffs in the foreseeable future.
I think softee, stone hands, and clueless have a TOTAL of 4 pts between them with NO goals. Thats just brutal. The other two are over the hill washed up vets good for nothing. Great recipe.
im glad our GM has more patience than most of you. If it were up to this board we'd have kuba, lee, foligno, dibo, and ullstrom in the lineup instead of okposo, bailey, comeau, rolston, and pandolfo.....
surely thats the recipe for success. :::
Not saying the trade actually works, but these are the stats...
When is enough enough? Obviously drafting high isn't helping this team. We should have our "core" together by now.
we have a core, but the core is too young and/or not good enough.
watching the games, the NYI are pretty close to the worst team in the NHL. I think Columbus will get better, they have more talent, I'm not convinced that the NYI will finish anywhere but 30th this year.
It's true what many of us said before the season - other teams got better in the off-season. The competition is tougher and the NYI have regressed.
But even with Yakupov next season, this team will not be much better. Too many holes. Eventually, something will have to give.
we have a core, but the core is too young and/or not good enough.
watching the games, the NYI are pretty close to the worst team in the NHL. I think Columbus will get better, they have more talent, I'm not convinced that the NYI will finish anywhere but 30th this year.
It's true what many of us said before the season - other teams got better in the off-season. The competition is tougher and the NYI have regressed.
But even with Yakupov next season, this team will not be much better. Too many holes. Eventually, something will have to give.
Lets say that what you say is true and we draft Yakupov or Grigorenko. We will also have approximately 10 million that needs to be spent just to get to the floor. That could bring in a solid defenseman and a Brooks Laich-type forward that would go a long way to picking this team up off the floor.
We'll see though. I've been on this merry-go-round before.
we have a core, but the core is too young and/or not good enough.
watching the games, the NYI are pretty close to the worst team in the NHL. I think Columbus will get better, they have more talent, I'm not convinced that the NYI will finish anywhere but 30th this year.
It's true what many of us said before the season - other teams got better in the off-season. The competition is tougher and the NYI have regressed.
But even with Yakupov next season, this team will not be much better. Too many holes. Eventually, something will have to give.
That's exactly my point. It should be enough by now. But no, it's not working and now it's... 'oh well on to the next draft'. When are people going to realize the draft isn't going to help any longer? You can only draft so much top talent. If it doesn't materialize (which is what is close to happening here), what happens next? With this team, nothing. Free agents won't sign here and if our young guys continue to struggle, free agents REALLY won't sign here. And the cycle continues...
Look at our situation. Can you think of another professional sports franchise in worse shape both on the ice/field and off? Because I can't. This is the worst of the worst... in all of sports. And that's damn sad.
::
