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Penn State Scandal (Update: NCAA Punishment handed out)

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07-31-2012, 02:28 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I think it is more about the money that the Penn State football program raised for the school and the town.

It wasn't about bowing to JoePa and "the program" as much as it was protecting the revenue stream and the brand.

He is the program and the brand and the revenue stream. Wake up.


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Also, the football program had nothing to do with other failures in this case like child protective services not informing 2nd Mile that Sandusky was under investigation for child abuse
You really don't grasp the level of influence that program exerted in that town and even the state. There have been cops, judges and other authority figures that were complicit in various ways in large part due to their connections (directly and indirectly) to the program. Some even cutting them slack (and getting in hot water for it) even after game was up.


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07-31-2012, 02:47 PM
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He is the program and the brand and the revenue stream. Wake up.
If that were the case, the program and the university would have folded last year.

Penn State football didn't die with JoePa. Just like USC football didn't die when Pete Carroll went to Seattle, Ohio State didn't die when Woody Hayes and Jim Tressel were fired, and Florida didn't die when Urban Myer retired.

Or Indiana basketball after Bobby Knight was fired or Kansas basketball when Roy Williams left for UNC, or UNC basketball when Dean Smith retired.

Big time sports programs just keep making huge money regardless of who is the coach.

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You really don't grasp the level of influence that program exerted in that town and even the state. There have been cops, judges and other authority figures that were complicit in various ways in large part due to their connections (directly and indirectly) to the program. Some even cutting them slack (and getting in hot water for it) even after game was up.
Sorry, I left my tinfoil hat at home.

You really think that CPS didn't notify 2nd Mile last year that Sandusky was under investigation because of ties to the Penn State football program?

Seriously?

And as far as why the 1998 complaint didn't go anywhere, I'd love to see an investigation as to why that didn't go further than it did. Until facts are found out in that regard, it's all just speculation as to why it went down the way it did.

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07-31-2012, 03:03 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
What NCAA rule did that stuff violate?

Where was the NCAA investigation that said that Penn State violated NCAA rules?

Sandusky violated Pennsylvania criminal law and will be in prison for the rest of his life because of it.

The Penn State officials that violated Pennsylvania criminal law in covering this up will have their day in court, as well.
Not a specific rule, but they do have all sorts of ethics clauses, and the ability to give the President the power to impose punishment which is exactly what they did.

The Penn State President didn't have to agree to the punishment, but he did because:

The NCAA doesn't have to allow Penn State Athletics in. I think that was the deal.... allow us to punish you on grounds of ethics violation or you can't be part of our organization any more. As a private organization the NCAA isn't really accountable for things in a legal court like due process.

I believe the cover up goes higher than Penn State athletics and the university president, and the current Governor of PA had a hand in, at the very least, delaying the investigation during his run for Governor, so i imagine that pinning it on the football team was the most desirable outcome, lest they dig deeper.

If Penn State said "no, go ahead and investigate yourselves" it may open them up to more violations

And investigation further into the University might have resulted in more problems from the department of education effecting government money etc....



Bottom line, i think they decided as that they would let paterno and the football team fall on the sword for everything in the eyes of the public and salvage what they could.


It sucks for them, and as a Big Ten fan and graduate it hurts the conference to have a crappy football team for the next decade.

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07-31-2012, 03:07 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
If that were the case, the program and the university would have folded last year.

Penn State football didn't die with JoePa. Just like USC football didn't die when Pete Carroll went to Seattle, Ohio State didn't die when Woody Hayes and Jim Tressel were fired, and Florida didn't die when Urban Myer retired.

Or Indiana basketball after Bobby Knight was fired or Kansas basketball when Roy Williams left for UNC, or UNC basketball when Dean Smith retired.

Big time sports programs just keep making huge money regardless of who is the coach.
Are you actually going to argue that Jo Pa and the program HE built were not one in the same at the time this crap was going on?

Are you actually going to argue that he didn't have incredible influence in that community? As evidenced by his ability to cover up the ****** of children for years.

And I'm the one with the tin foil hat?


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Sorry, I left my tinfoil hat at home.

You really think that CPS didn't notify 2nd Mile last year that Sandusky was under investigation because of ties to the Penn State football program?

Seriously?

And as far as why the 1998 complaint didn't go anywhere, I'd love to see an investigation as to why that didn't go further than it did. Until facts are found out in that regard, it's all just speculation as to why it went down the way it did.
I'm not referencing CPS. I'm talking about various authorities that gave either Sandusky the benefit of the doubt or took Jo Pa's word nothing was up. I'm not saying they refused to do things simply because someone from Penn State was involved. They had personal relationships with one of both of those men.

Many high ups at Penn State, Paterno in particular, were involved with many organizations and served on various boards (even 2nd mile) with the folks I'm referencing. Their influence was a personal one that developed from their positions at Penn State.

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07-31-2012, 03:12 PM
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Jim Bob


At the end of the day you don't like the punishment handed out to Penn State. So you're trying to find various ways to complain about it without coming right out and saying its wrong.


At least thats what its seems like to me. Feel free to set me straight.

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07-31-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Jim Bob

At the end of the day you don't like the punishment handed out to Penn State. So you're trying to find various ways to complain about it without coming right out and saying its wrong.

At least thats what its seems like to me. Feel free to set me straight.
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I have more of a problem with how they got to the sanctions that they handed down than the sanctions that got handed down.

The fact that the NCAA decided to set aside all their rules and procedures for doling out punishment for this one case just doesn't sit well with me.

I agree that an unprecedented situation deserved unprecedented penalties. But, stepping outside of most rules and regulations you have for something like that is not the way to go, IMO.

I also love that PSU's new President broke rules that said he had to go to the BoT with the agreement he signed to not fight the NCAA's sanctions.....

I don't really have much of an issue with the punishment that was handed out.

I just have a distaste for the NCAA and how they handle lots of things. The fact that they folded to public pressure in this case, didn't follow their own rules, and let Emmert use Roger Goodell-like powers to hand down this punishment is what I have an issue with.

If the NCAA had followed their rules and procedures, done a full investigation, found that Penn State had violated specific NCAA rules, and the punishment that was handed out was the punishment for those rules violations, then I wouldn't have an issue.

But, that's not how this played out.

I don't like it when people in power choose to ignore rules and regulations. And that is what the NCAA did in this case.

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07-31-2012, 03:30 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
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I don't really have much of an issue with the punishment that was handed out.

I just have a distaste for the NCAA and how they handle lots of things. The fact that they folded to public pressure in this case, didn't follow their own rules, and let Emmert use Roger Goodell-like powers to hand down this punishment is what I have an issue with.

If the NCAA had followed their rules and procedures, done a full investigation, found that Penn State had violated specific NCAA rules, and the punishment that was handed out was the punishment for those rules violations, then I wouldn't have an issue.

But, that's not how this played out.

I don't like it when people in power choose to ignore rules and regulations. And that is what the NCAA did in this case.
Fair enough.

But my question is do they even have a process for something like this? Since it doesn't involved student athletes in anyway that I'm aware of.

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07-31-2012, 03:32 PM
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Not a specific rule, but they do have all sorts of ethics clauses, and the ability to give the President the power to impose punishment which is exactly what they did.
Show me where they are in the NCAA Rules.

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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
The Penn State President didn't have to agree to the punishment, but he did because:

The NCAA doesn't have to allow Penn State Athletics in. I think that was the deal.... allow us to punish you on grounds of ethics violation or you can't be part of our organization any more. As a private organization the NCAA isn't really accountable for things in a legal court like due process.
There are NCAA Rules about how investigations of major rules violations are to take place.

The NCAA chose to ignore their own rules in this case.

I just don't like it when people in power ignore rules to punish people.

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I believe the cover up goes higher than Penn State athletics and the university president, and the current Governor of PA had a hand in, at the very least, delaying the investigation during his run for Governor, so i imagine that pinning it on the football team was the most desirable outcome, lest they dig deeper.
If that was the case, then the NCAA just became a part of the cover up as well.......

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If Penn State said "no, go ahead and investigate yourselves" it may open them up to more violations
If the NCAA fast tracking this left other violations uncovered, then they are bigger idiots than I think they are already.

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And investigation further into the University might have resulted in more problems from the department of education effecting government money etc....
If there is more to find, then that is even more of an argument against the way the NCAA fast tracked this whole thing.

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Bottom line, i think they decided as that they would let paterno and the football team fall on the sword for everything in the eyes of the public and salvage what they could.
The NCAA or Penn State?

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It sucks for them, and as a Big Ten fan and graduate it hurts the conference to have a crappy football team for the next decade.
Even with the sanctions, I bet Penn State is better than Illinois and Northwestern over the next decade.


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07-31-2012, 03:36 PM
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Fair enough.

But my question is do they even have a process for something like this? Since it doesn't involved student athletes in anyway that I'm aware of.
That's what the whole investigative wing of the NCAA is supposed to be for.

They come in, investigate the situation and actually interview all the people involved and not just the select few that the Freeh group did, and figure out if there were NCAA Rules violations or not.

Most investigations take years to develop. Just look at how long it took the NCAA to nail USC for the Reggie Bush violations.

But, with this being a high profile case, they decided that they didn't have the time to actually follow their own rules. That's the part that doesn't sit well with me. Rarely does the choice to step outside of protocol and rush to a decision based largely on public outcry end up with really good decisions being made.

Maybe this is one of the cases where doing that works out. But, we'll never really know.

I do know that a rush to judgement didn't work out when it came to Duke Lacrosse.

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07-31-2012, 03:43 PM
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I don't like it when people in power choose to ignore rules and regulations. And that is what the NCAA did in this case.
Good points Jim Bob. One potential unintended consequence: other collegiate sports programs across the country which may be harboring pedophiles (does anyone really think Sandusky is the only one?) are busy at this moment eradicating any and all evidence that would link them to any child-**** scandal.

On a related note, in my town there was a priest who used the local college sports infrastructure to do the exact same thing Sandusky did (although I can't say for sure the ***** were committed on campus).

Rather than shed light on this issue, I'm afraid the Penn State sanctions are forcing it even deeper underground.

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07-31-2012, 03:55 PM
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Good points Jim Bob. One potential unintended consequence: other collegiate sports programs across the country which may be harboring pedophiles (does anyone really think Sandusky is the only one?) are busy at this moment eradicating any and all evidence that would link them to any child-**** scandal.

On a related note, in my town there was a priest who used the local college sports infrastructure to do the exact same thing Sandusky did (although I can't say for sure the ***** were committed on campus).

Rather than shed light on this issue, I'm afraid the Penn State sanctions are forcing it even deeper underground.
Any institution where adults are in positions of influence over kids will have the potential for this being an issue.

We've seen it in hockey (Graham James & the Maple Leaf Gardens situations), swimming, gymnastics, and the Boy Scouts.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of other examples, too.....

That's why this wasn't just a "big time football culture" thing.

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07-31-2012, 03:56 PM
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The NCAA's specific rules they claimed PSU broke are listed here:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/2...1207236PDF.pdf

They are intentionally vague in my opinion. That way the NCAA can do what it wants. Is that right or fair... not really... but they are running the show.

Anyone who thought they wouldn't act had their head in the sand.... there was absolutely no way they were going to be associated with this by way of the football team and make it publicly known that they opposed it.

They fast tracked it because they wanted it over and done with. Penn State could have fought, but i imagine the result would have been no football until the investigation was complete. The options were never "lets take 5 years to investigate and then punish" it was "take this punishment and still get to play, or shut down the program until the investigation is complete" The NCAA generally takes forever because they aren't that large a staff.

Penn State will be OK for a few years if enough guys stick it out, then in like years 3-5 from now they will be awful... a 2-3 win team. Then they'll be back.

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07-31-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Karate Johnson View Post
The NCAA's specific rules they claimed PSU broke are listed here:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/2...1207236PDF.pdf

They are intentionally vague in my opinion. That way the NCAA can do what it wants. Is that right or fair... not really... but they are running the show.

Anyone who thought they wouldn't act had their head in the sand.... there was absolutely no way they were going to be associated with this by way of the football team and make it publicly known that they opposed it.

They fast tracked it because they wanted it over and done with. Penn State could have fought, but i imagine the result would have been no football until the investigation was complete. The options were never "lets take 5 years to investigate and then punish" it was "take this punishment and still get to play, or shut down the program until the investigation is complete" The NCAA generally takes forever because they aren't that large a staff.

Penn State will be OK for a few years if enough guys stick it out, then in like years 3-5 from now they will be awful... a 2-3 win team. Then they'll be back.
Again, the NCAA had the option to actually follow their own rules and they chose not to.

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07-31-2012, 04:04 PM
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Again, the NCAA had the option to actually follow their own rules and they chose not to.
Ok... and?

They did it, Penn State signed off on it instead of fighting it... case closed.


I disagree with a lot of what the NCAA does. Ohio State got a bowl ban without getting LOIC, never happened before.


Until the NCAA is revamped the rules are there are no rules other than what they determine are rules on a situation by situation basis. Nobody has to play, watch, attend games.

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08-01-2012, 10:09 AM
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http://wnep.com/2012/07/23/penn-stat...s-grads-react/

"this was our 9/11"

Gotta love crazy fans.

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08-01-2012, 10:11 AM
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The NCAA sucks, and their inconsistent enforcement of their own rules sucks too.

However, ****** kids in the shower for 15 years sucks worse, so in this case I think I can overlook it.

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08-01-2012, 10:14 AM
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Isn't the NCAA prone to doing the same things that Penn St. Football did due to the money involved? College football is a huge cash cow and it seems that the NCAA makes up rules as they go along so that they protect their cash rather than being consistent or doing things always in the best interest of student atheletes or youngsters in general.

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08-01-2012, 10:28 AM
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Isn't the NCAA prone to doing the same things that Penn St. Football did due to the money involved? College football is a huge cash cow and it seems that the NCAA makes up rules as they go along so that they protect their cash rather than being consistent or doing things always in the best interest of student atheletes or youngsters in general.

Absolutely.

That's why Penn State is still playing football... Shutting them down would have been way easier. Just say "we don't want to be associated with this institution" and kicked them out of the NCAA.

But they have games to play, and canceling away games would cost the conference money.


The whole thing is corrupt... They change the rules as they go, and any school that creates a problem will be dealt with.... That's not just Penn State, that's across the board.... It sucks, but until it's fixed it's the state of college sports.

Penn State just happened to be at the center of the most messed up situation in College sports history. The systematic **** of children, using Penn State football as the candy in the van.

Of course they got slammed.

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08-01-2012, 10:33 AM
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Isn't the NCAA prone to doing the same things that Penn St. Football did due to the money involved? College football is a huge cash cow and it seems that the NCAA makes up rules as they go along so that they protect their cash rather than being consistent or doing things always in the best interest of student atheletes or youngsters in general.
Absolutely agree. If we were talking about a scandal with players being paid, or your more garden variety 'violations', they I'd be in front of the NCAA Sucks Marching Band.

But when it comes to this situation, I'm content to let the NCAA make up whatever rules they want to punish an institution that systemically allowed kids to be abused.

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08-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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Ok... and?

They did it, Penn State signed off on it instead of fighting it... case closed.
Just because they did it, it doesn't make it right.

I'm just expressing my opinion. I don't expect that to change anything.

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I disagree with a lot of what the NCAA does. Ohio State got a bowl ban without getting LOIC, never happened before.

Until the NCAA is revamped the rules are there are no rules other than what they determine are rules on a situation by situation basis. Nobody has to play, watch, attend games.
There are rules and procedures. Sure, the NCAA's punishments vary from situation to situation. But, in this case, they set aside all their own rules. I just find it hypocritical that they respond to Penn State not abiding by the NCAA's constitution & by-laws by ignoring their own rules and regs when it comes to investigating potential violations.

It's like punishing your kid for hitting their sibling by hitting them.....

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08-01-2012, 10:41 AM
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Absolutely agree. If we were talking about a scandal with players being paid, or your more garden variety 'violations', they I'd be in front of the NCAA Sucks Marching Band.

But when it comes to this situation, I'm content to let the NCAA make up whatever rules they want to punish an institution that systemically allowed kids to be abused.

It's pretty simple.

The NCAA and Penn State University believe that the school President, Athletic Director, and head Football Coach covered up 48 counts of sexual misconduct with children to help protect the image of the Football Program and Athetic Department.

The football facilities, team access, bowl game trips, etc were used to entice the victims of a former coach who was still a presence in the football program and had full access to the football program.

The NCAA wanted to make sure nobody else attempted something similar.

If there really was as coverup is something that could be debated.... But the NCAA and Penn State (they accepted the finding of the Freeh report they commissioned) believes there was... And they make the decisions.

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08-01-2012, 10:45 AM
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The NCAA wanted to make sure nobody else attempted something similar.
I don't believe that was the NCAA's motivation at all. I think this was a PR move because so many people were saying that they couldn't sit by and do nothing after hammering programs for lesser issues like players trading jerseys and autographs for tattoos.

The way that Penn State got hammered, you could see other programs do more to try and cover up a scandal like this and just pray that it doesn't come to light until they are long gone.

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08-01-2012, 10:49 AM
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I don't believe that was the NCAA's motivation at all. I think this was a PR move because so many people were saying that they couldn't sit by and do nothing after hammering programs for lesser issues like players trading jerseys and autographs for tattoos.

The way that Penn State got hammered, you could see other programs do more to try and cover up a scandal like this and just pray that it doesn't come to light until they are long gone.
Yeah it was PR, but they image they were portraying was that they are tough on this so you better not do it.

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08-01-2012, 10:52 AM
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Just because they did it, it doesn't make it right.

I'm just expressing my opinion. I don't expect that to change anything.



There are rules and procedures. Sure, the NCAA's punishments vary from situation to situation. But, in this case, they set aside all their own rules. I just find it hypocritical that they respond to Penn State not abiding by the NCAA's constitution & by-laws by ignoring their own rules and regs when it comes to investigating potential violations.

It's like punishing your kid for hitting their sibling by hitting them.....
I just feel that when the NCAA is involved the rules are made up as they go along.

Right or wrong, doesn't matter, because that's what it is. Until the NCAA is restructured or changed that's the way it will be...

And why would anyone want to change it... They make ridiculous money with the status quo.

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08-01-2012, 11:01 AM
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Yeah it was PR, but they image they were portraying was that they are tough on this so you better not do it.
I doubt too many people thought it was OK to harbor a child molester before the NCAA punished Penn State and only afterward were scared straight.

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