He wasn't THAT much of a reach... I remember seeing him slotted anywhere from like 5th-9th on varying lists... tho he couldve been lower on others
You're right in that Hickey was much more of a reach as he wasn't even expected to be top 10.
Niederreiter only became highly regarded after the WJCs and I think I recall ISS having him at 6, but then again, they rely heavily on the WJCs for their scouting and this is the same organization that had Jesse Joensuu rated first overall for 2006 ahead of Kessel and Toews in November of 2005 (both were already performing admirably in the NCAA and Joensuu had done nothing at that point). So you can always take them with a grain of salt.
CSS didn't have him higher than 10-11 and I think Redline had him around 8-9. That's behind Fowler, Skinner, and others the Islanders passed on. There was a huge drop after the top 6-7 in 2010 and Niederreiter was on the wrong side of the drop. I know it's early, obviously, but at no point in their entire careers has Niederreiter shown he was a better prospect than Fowler. That was a Parise-esque mistake by the Islanders that will hurt the franchise for quite some time. I know I'm beating a dead horse with that, but I watched Fowler come up with the USNTDP and I never understood why he dropped (same with Parise).
Trouba is a guy who they need to look at. I think Dumba (whom I'd prefer over all other defenseman) is probably going to go in the top 5 and the Islanders are more likely to pick in the 6-8 range where Trouba may be available. They can't ignore him like they did Fowler. If they go for a guy like Collberg just because of his WJC performance it will be a mistake.
If Snow takes a forward then everyone outside of Wang will be calling for his resignation. Trouba should be the definitive pick at this point.
Nothing is definitive. And taking a defenseman should not be automatic. They should take the player who they feel fits their team best, and that isn't necessarily a defenseman. Our forwards are hardly set. Bailey remains an enormous question mark, Okposo has a lot to work on, and there's only one guy on this team named John Tavares. All the other forwards, except for Matt Martin, are replaceable. So, while a defenseman is likely, because there are so many of them, drafting a forward would not upset me. Nor would trading the likes of Okposo, Bailey, Grabner, or almost any other forward. If we select Filip Forsberg, which is not likely, because he ought to be a top 5 selection, I will not be complaining.
Nothing is definitive. And taking a defenseman should not be automatic. They should take the player who they feel fits their team best, and that isn't necessarily a defenseman. Our forwards are hardly set. Bailey remains an enormous question mark, Okposo has a lot to work on, and there's only one guy on this team named John Tavares. All the other forwards, except for Matt Martin, are replaceable. So, while a defenseman is likely, because there are so many of them, drafting a forward would not upset me. Nor would trading the likes of Okposo, Bailey, Grabner, or almost any other forward. If we select Filip Forsberg, which is not likely, because he ought to be a top 5 selection, I will not be complaining.
There are a lot of centers in the organization who can eventually fill in for Bailey or more specifically the second line center role. Strome, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, and Sundstrom among others. I'm all about selecting the best player available, and I feel that Trouba will be that guy on draft day.
There are a lot of centers in the organization who can eventually fill in for Bailey or more specifically the second line center role. Strome, Nelson, Lee, Cizikas, and Sundstrom among others. I'm all about selecting the best player available, and I feel that Trouba will be that guy on draft day.
It's possible that he is, but nothing except for John Tavares and Travis Hamonic is set. So I don't want to speak for what the Islanders should, or will, do in June.
If Snow takes a forward then everyone outside of Wang will be calling for his resignation. Trouba should be the definitive pick at this point.
Completely disagree, you take the BPA no matter what. Look at the Penguins, they have Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all playing center. Our offense is still weak at best, we need secondary scoring like no other, and having someone else that can put up 80+ points is never a bad thing.
If we need defense down the line there are always trades that can be made. I personally hope we get a couple more second round picks by the deadline, and we make a package to move up into the top 15-18 and draft a defenseman.
If we left the draft with Galchenyuk and Cody Ceci I would be ecstatic. Would be a phenomenal draft by Snow, we get our bluechip defenseman and another bluechip forward.
Completely disagree, you take the BPA no matter what. Look at the Penguins, they have Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all playing center. Our offense is still weak at best, we need secondary scoring like no other, and having someone else that can put up 80+ points is never a bad thing.
If we need defense down the line there are always trades that can be made. I personally hope we get a couple more second round picks by the deadline, and we make a package to move up into the top 15-18 and draft a defenseman.
If we left the draft with Galchenyuk and Cody Ceci I would be ecstatic. Would be a phenomenal draft by Snow, we get our bluechip defenseman and another bluechip forward.
I agree with taking the best player available. There is no consensus on the best player and it's whoever Snow thinks it is at the draft.
Completely disagree, you take the BPA no matter what. Look at the Penguins, they have Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all playing center. Our offense is still weak at best, we need secondary scoring like no other, and having someone else that can put up 80+ points is never a bad thing.
If we need defense down the line there are always trades that can be made. I personally hope we get a couple more second round picks by the deadline, and we make a package to move up into the top 15-18 and draft a defenseman.
If we left the draft with Galchenyuk and Cody Ceci I would be ecstatic. Would be a phenomenal draft by Snow, we get our bluechip defenseman and another bluechip forward.
So if the best player available is a center that 5'10" and 170lbs, we take another little guy? The Islanders will get killed by the bigger physical teams, especially in the playoffs over a long series. The Bruins will be licking their chops.
The Penguins also have Deryk England, Paul Martin, Brooks Orpik and Kris LeTang.
You take a big, physical defensemen 1st!!! Travis Hamonic is becoming one of the Islanders MVP's. It not just his skill, it's his physical play as well. If you think DeHaan, McDonald, Streit or Reese are the answer, you're sorely mistaken.
So if the best player available is a center that 5'10" and 170lbs, we take another little guy? The Islanders will get killed by the bigger physical teams, especially in the playoffs over a long series. The Bruins will be licking their chops.
The Penguins also have Deryk England, Paul Martin, Brooks Orpik and Kris LeTang.
You take a big, physical defensemen 1st!!! Travis Hamonic is becoming one of the Islanders MVP's. It not just his skill, it's his physical play as well. If you think DeHaan, McDonald, Streit or Reese are the answer, you're sorely mistaken.
So you are saying a guy like st. Louis wouldnt help this team? You dont win with size, it is only an extra asset. You win by playing with skill and smart hockey.
Detroit isnt physical at all, and they have been the most successful franchise over the past 20 years. Sure physical players are nice, but your best players dont need to be. I feel you build a very physical bottom 6 up front, and on the backend have a couple guys that can staple you, but having a good transition game is way more important.
So you are saying a guy like st. Louis wouldnt help this team? You dont win with size, it is only an extra asset. You win by playing with skill and smart hockey.
Detroit isnt physical at all, and they have been the most successful franchise over the past 20 years. Sure physical players are nice, but your best players dont need to be. I feel you build a very physical bottom 6 up front, and on the backend have a couple guys that can staple you, but having a good transition game is way more important.
I don't know how many Islander games you've watched this year, but when the play gets physical, the Islanders lose. The most obvious games, were the Bruin games. With Lucic, Horton, and Chara, those games were blowouts.
Are you saying you don't mind it when other teams beat the crap out of John Tavares? Did you enjoy watching Toronto slap Tavares around this year! Phanuef laying Okposo out a couple of years ago? How about our goalies getting run? How come Tim Thomas never gets injured? I watched a little of the Ranger - Flyer game today. The Flyers tried to play it rough and Stu Bickel and Brandon Prust stepped up and beat the hell out of the Flyers. Michael Rupp tried to stick up for his team and join in too. Unless the Islanders dress goons, like Gillies, they'll get beat right out of the rink by teams that decide to play physical. I would prefer to draft bigger, physical players, rather then give up a lineup spot to a player like Trevor Gillies, who can barely skate and shoot at the same time.
The Islanders will eventually make the playoffs, and those games become very physical. When the same two teams play 5 or 6 times over a short span, things could get ugly. If the Islanders don't have big, physical players they'll get wiped out. Look back at the last time the Islanders made the playoffs against the Maple Leafs Although Eric Cairns isnt't the most talented player around, if he hadn't been on the Islander roster, there would have been alot of Islander players carried out on stretchers.
The Islanders need a big, mean, physical defensemen. If they don't start getting bigger, little fellas like Ryan Strome are going to get the **** beat out of them!
I don't know how many Islander games you've watched this year, but when the play gets physical, the Islanders lose. The most obvious games, were the Bruin games. With Lucic, Horton, and Chara, those games were blowouts.
Are you saying you don't mind it when other teams beat the crap out of John Tavares? Did you enjoy watching Toronto slap Tavares around this year! Phanuef laying Okposo out a couple of years ago? How about our goalies getting run? How come Tim Thomas never gets injured? I watched a little of the Ranger - Flyer game today. The Flyers tried to play it rough and Stu Bickel and Brandon Prust stepped up and beat the hell out of the Flyers. Michael Rupp tried to stick up for his team and join in too. Unless the Islanders dress goons, like Gillies, they'll get beat right out of the rink by teams that decide to play physical. I would prefer to draft bigger, physical players, rather then give up a lineup spot to a player like Trevor Gillies, who can barely skate and shoot at the same time.
The Islanders will eventually make the playoffs, and those games become very physical. When the same two teams play 5 or 6 times over a short span, things could get ugly. If the Islanders don't have big, physical players they'll get wiped out. Look back at the last time the Islanders made the playoffs against the Maple Leafs Although Eric Cairns isnt't the most talented player around, if he hadn't been on the Islander roster, there would have been alot of Islander players carried out on stretchers.
The Islanders need a big, mean, physical defensemen. If they don't start getting bigger, little fellas like Ryan Strome are going to get the **** beat out of them!
It's still too early to tell where we will be picking. We are not making the playoffs, our defense is in trouble with the loss of Hamonic even for 'only 2 weeks'. We could easily be looking at a top 5 pick here and possibly #1 overall. Aside from the top 2-3 elite forwards, we need a defenseman in the worst way. I like Murray, but his style of play is just too similar to CDH.
Dumba and Trouba are exactly what this team needs. I've been a big fan of Dumba and we need a kid like him. RH shot, elite skater, plays with an edge - the thing we need most on this team. He's a swing for the fences, but the upside is nuts. It would be better if he were bigger, but he's one of the younger prospects this year so he still has time to grow. I think he'll need to spend another 2 years in Junior and possibly some time in Bridgeport before he joins the big boys. Once he does, he'll stay up here for the long haul. I love his compete level and he has serious tools. He could be a monster in 2-3 years.
Trouba seems just so solid. He's got size, can skate, and is also a RH shot. Only saw him at the WJC, but he was probably USA's top defenseman. He's physical, but not nasty. Really controlled and poised. I don't know about his offensive upside, but he has really good tools. Just seems really safe to me to be a really good top-4 defenseman. I see a better skating Luke Schenn type with more offensive ability. He just looks like he'll be a rock and possibly a two-way force. He outranks Dumba and Murray on the latest ISS rankings at #4 so I assume he's a potential top pairing defenseman.
This has got to be the year Snow gets us a potential stud on the blue line. Yakupov and Grigorenko have to be the top 2 IMO. Forsberg and Dumba are projection picks with HUGE upside. Murray and Trouba look like the 'safest' picks to me.
Here's the way I see it: We have three identifiable parts, and they are John Tavares, Travis Hamonic, and Matt Martin. These are the guys who we should be looking to build the team around. No joke, everyone else on the roster could get traded, and I won't be upset. I don't care if it's Kyle Okposo, Michael Grabner, Josh Bailey, whoever, they can all go as long as they bring something that's better for this team back in return. For twenty years, this team has tried to work with what it's had, except for 2001, and in 2001, it worked to some extent. At least we got in the playoffs, had an exciting series, and were in a series that we could have won.
Last year, I aggressively suggested that we move Bailey while the "potential card" was still in play. His value is definitely not higher than it was last year, but it's reasonable to believe that it might even be lower. A lot of fans overreacted to Kyle Okposo two seasons ago, and he's not as good as the hype suggested.
Okay, fine, it's a rebuild, but now we have cornerstones, and I hope that management realizes it. When this rebuild began, and I'll give the starting date of 2008, it started without direction or identity. Now we have identity in the three players I've mentioned, and rather than trying to force what we've got, I think it's a great idea to move some of these players that don't click with our core, and get some guys who fit better.
With the guys who are available in the upcoming draft, I do agree with those who are looking in the direction of Dumba and Trouba. I'm not of the opinion that we MUST go D, but I think we should. Dumba and Trouba seem to fit the personality and playing style that Hamonic, in particular has. I would look to move the likes of Bailey, Okposo, Grabner, and some other movable parts for a player better suited for this team. We need to be aggressive, and yeah, I would trade Okposo AND Bailey to Anaheim for Bobby Ryan and some mid round draft pick. If not Bobby Ryan, a player like him.
With that said, it's possible that Hamonic's injury is a blessing in disguise, because if his loss forces us out of the playoffs, which I believe it will, we may wisely sell off some of our ancillary players for useful ones. And yes, we can afford to do it.
You're right in that Hickey was much more of a reach as he wasn't even expected to be top 10.
Niederreiter only became highly regarded after the WJCs and I think I recall ISS having him at 6, but then again, they rely heavily on the WJCs for their scouting and this is the same organization that had Jesse Joensuu rated first overall for 2006 ahead of Kessel and Toews in November of 2005 (both were already performing admirably in the NCAA and Joensuu had done nothing at that point). So you can always take them with a grain of salt.
CSS didn't have him higher than 10-11 and I think Redline had him around 8-9. That's behind Fowler, Skinner, and others the Islanders passed on. There was a huge drop after the top 6-7 in 2010 and Niederreiter was on the wrong side of the drop. I know it's early, obviously, but at no point in their entire careers has Niederreiter shown he was a better prospect than Fowler. That was a Parise-esque mistake by the Islanders that will hurt the franchise for quite some time. I know I'm beating a dead horse with that, but I watched Fowler come up with the USNTDP and I never understood why he dropped (same with Parise).
You use redline's ranking and say they are better than iss, but you ignore their opinion that after arguing and hall it was pretty level until you got to the teens.
Mackenzie also had Nino at 7, right after Johansen. The only two players mackenzie had ranked higher than Nino were either off the board already or would not be drafted until pick 12. So if they were truly another tier, it looks like a number of other teams didn't get the memo.
So if the best player available is a center that 5'10" and 170lbs, we take another little guy? The Islanders will get killed by the bigger physical teams, especially in the playoffs over a long series. The Bruins will be licking their chops.
Well, the Oilers took Nugent-Hopkins, who is practically that size. His skill has already shown the league that his size plays no role.
Heck, those Bruins you mention took Seguin highly, who isn't the biggest (nor is he undersized), but his skills also determined he'd be taken far ahead of say a big Dman.
Quote:
You take a big, physical defensemen 1st!!! Travis Hamonic is becoming one of the Islanders MVP's. It not just his skill, it's his physical play as well. If you think DeHaan, McDonald, Streit or Reese are the answer, you're sorely mistaken.
One takes the BPA.
In general though, there's no hidden science behind why a very low percentage of Dmen have been taken top 5-10 in recent draft years (it's hovering around 30%). Overall, history has shown that the high-impact forwards are generally gotten at the top of the draft whereas many later-round Dmen (uhhhh, not unlike Hamonic) have turned into very servicable NHL Dmen, if not true studs.
Now, if teams feel that Murray, Trouba, Dumba, Ceci, Rielly, etc. are truly the best guys in the draft and take them top 10, then so be it. The Isles will do it too if they feel that's the case when they're up to pick (and I still think we're picking 10-16 this summer!), but THAT will be the reason for a Dman - not because we already have enough smaller forwards and need more bruising, physical Dmen with size or so.
All this said, I do think we're going to see two Dmen go top 6 and at the U18 tournament last spring, I not only saw lots of Murray, but had contact with the staff and I kept hearing 'reminds us so much of Niedermayer in so many ways'. Not a bad thing...
I don't know how many Islander games you've watched this year, but when the play gets physical, the Islanders lose. The most obvious games, were the Bruin games. With Lucic, Horton, and Chara, those games were blowouts.
Are you saying you don't mind it when other teams beat the crap out of John Tavares? Did you enjoy watching Toronto slap Tavares around this year! Phanuef laying Okposo out a couple of years ago? How about our goalies getting run? How come Tim Thomas never gets injured? I watched a little of the Ranger - Flyer game today. The Flyers tried to play it rough and Stu Bickel and Brandon Prust stepped up and beat the hell out of the Flyers. Michael Rupp tried to stick up for his team and join in too. Unless the Islanders dress goons, like Gillies, they'll get beat right out of the rink by teams that decide to play physical. I would prefer to draft bigger, physical players, rather then give up a lineup spot to a player like Trevor Gillies, who can barely skate and shoot at the same time.
The Islanders will eventually make the playoffs, and those games become very physical. When the same two teams play 5 or 6 times over a short span, things could get ugly. If the Islanders don't have big, physical players they'll get wiped out. Look back at the last time the Islanders made the playoffs against the Maple Leafs Although Eric Cairns isnt't the most talented player around, if he hadn't been on the Islander roster, there would have been alot of Islander players carried out on stretchers.
The Islanders need a big, mean, physical defensemen. If they don't start getting bigger, little fellas like Ryan Strome are going to get the **** beat out of them!
So you are saying we need to get bigger and more physical, and I agree with that. However there is no need to go after a player like that in the first round, you take BPA no matter what, if he happens to be physical as well than thats great, but its not a deal breaker.
Of the guys you mentioned- Rupp, Bickel, Prust, and Cairns; are any of them first round material? These are all guys that can be had during the offseason for ~1 million per year.
I really want to see them have a very physical bottom six, that will grind you down and be tough to play against. While your top 6 has as much skill as possible.
On defense I will agree that its nice to have some physicality, but it does not have to come from your best player. Look at a lot of the best defensemen many of them are not physical at all, most of them are just very smart players.
Well, the Oilers took Nugent-Hopkins, who is practically that size. His skill has already shown the league that his size plays no role.
Heck, those Bruins you mention took Seguin highly, who isn't the biggest (nor is he undersized), but his skills also determined he'd be taken far ahead of say a big Dman.
One takes the BPA.
In general though, there's no hidden science behind why a very low percentage of Dmen have been taken top 5-10 in recent draft years (it's hovering around 30%). Overall, history has shown that the high-impact forwards are generally gotten at the top of the draft whereas many later-round Dmen (uhhhh, not unlike Hamonic) have turned into very servicable NHL Dmen, if not true studs.
Now, if teams feel that Murray, Trouba, Dumba, Ceci, Rielly, etc. are truly the best guys in the draft and take them top 10, then so be it. The Isles will do it too if they feel that's the case when they're up to pick (and I still think we're picking 10-16 this summer!), but THAT will be the reason for a Dman - not because we already have enough smaller forwards and need more bruising, physical Dmen with size or so.
All this said, I do think we're going to see two Dmen go top 6 and at the U18 tournament last spring, I not only saw lots of Murray, but had contact with the staff and I kept hearing 'reminds us so much of Niedermayer in so many ways'. Not a bad thing...
I would be very happy if we got Murray in the draft, however like you said a lot of people see him as a Niedermayer type defenseman. Niedermayer was never a physical defenseman, he just wowed you with his elite skating ability, strong stick work, and overall high hockey sense.
I really think we will be picking right around where Murray and Galchunyuk will be drafted, I really hope we land one of them because they will both be stars in this league.
I know mock drafts are pointless until the season end and lottery is picked.. and even then the "experts" are more wrong than right but I found this one amusing from NHL.com.
With the sixth pick Steve Hoffner thinks the Islanders should take Malcolm Subban:
Quote:
SKINNY: Do the Islanders need another goalie? No. Do they need a good one? Yes.
I know mock drafts are pointless until the season end and lottery is picked.. and even then the "experts" are more wrong than right but I found this one amusing from NHL.com.
With the sixth pick Steve Hoffner thinks the Islanders should take Malcolm Subban:
I know mock drafts are pointless until the season end and lottery is picked.. and even then the "experts" are more wrong than right but I found this one amusing from NHL.com.
With the sixth pick Steve Hoffner thinks the Islanders should take Malcolm Subban:
I don't think Hoffner realizes that Mike Milbury is no longer our GM. Can't fault him I guess, Snow has been as quiet as a church mouse all season.
Still, all they'd have to do is look at what the Isles have done in the first round the past five years to realize it'd be unlikely that they'd take a Dman with a high pick, much less a goalie.
In addition, these guys aren't just writing for some private little blog somewhere.
If your work is being published on NHL.com, then you should have a MUCH higher standard of knowledge about every team. Anybody who reads The Hockey News season preview, much less something like McKeen's, knows that the Isles will not need to look beyond Poulin, Nilsson and even still Koskinen (tearing apart the Finish league this season) for their goaltending answers in the years to come. If they do, they'll need a veteran presence (uhhhhh, i.e. Nabakov).
On top of it all, I've seen Malcolm Subban live a couple of times. Even talked to him during a busride. I personally don't think he's got the pedigree of a Poulin and Nilsson, much less that famed character personality Snow craves.
This quote alone shows how terrible shoddy that piece of work is:
>>>
SKINNY: Do the Islanders need another goalie? No. Do they need a good one? Yes.
<<<
I know mock drafts are pointless until the season end and lottery is picked.. and even then the "experts" are more wrong than right but I found this one amusing from NHL.com.
With the sixth pick Steve Hoffner thinks the Islanders should take Malcolm Subban:
Not only does he want the Islanders to pick a goalie, he also has the Islanders going completely off the board to get one (the Islanders pick a player at #6 that neither of the other two think will be drafted in the top 20).
If that happened, Snow should be fired before even stepping down from the podium.
Not only does he want the Islanders to pick a goalie, he also has the Islanders going completely off the board to get one (the Islanders pick a player at #6 that neither of the other two think will be drafted in the top 20).
If that happened, Snow should be fired before even stepping down from the podium.
What it comes down to is "experts" are really just fans. The players that the Islanders were given, were really just given so that particular expert would wind up with the player they want on their team. The mock draft is just as ridiculous as a fan proposed trade. It's fun, but ultimately wrong, and potentially stupid.
You use redline's ranking and say they are better than iss, but you ignore their opinion that after arguing and hall it was pretty level until you got to the teens.
Mackenzie also had Nino at 7, right after Johansen. The only two players mackenzie had ranked higher than Nino were either off the board already or would not be drafted until pick 12. So if they were truly another tier, it looks like a number of other teams didn't get the memo.
Perhaps you're right on Niederreiter, but I'm recalling the events of the whole year not just the last rankings. I know he only began to rise after the WJCs, prior, he was an afterthought to the top prospects. Pedigree is forgotten at times, even though it has proven time and time again to be an important factor when judging a prospect's chances at success.
With regards to ISS' rankings, you linked McKenzie's archived final rankings, not ISS. In order to find the ranking I'm talking about, you have to bring up ISS monthly rankings from 2005. I think it may have even been a 2006 preview during the 2005 draft year. They did indeed have Joensuu #1 over Kessel and co. It was quite ridiculous at the time, even if it was a year before the draft. They were still trying to make a name for themselves at the time so it may have been for shock value, but either way, Kessel was clearly a notch above anyone else at that point.
