Plenty of players get large contracts in free agency. I'd still rather not pay that much for a defensive dman who can't anchor a pairing.
You may be able to thank the Blue Jackets for that. Wiz getting $6.5 per or whatever it was will inflate defensemen contracts for the next few years. We said the same thing for JvR, but if Coburn can finally put it all together, he can be a very good defenseman and $4-4.5 per will be a steal. He has freakishly athletic tools, great for a d-man, especially of his size. He just needs to stop forcing the play and making mistakes.
If Coburn ends up getting 4 million a year, then Holmgren needs to have his head examined. Coburn is NOT a 4 million a year defenseman. He's not even worth what he's getting right now.
You may be able to thank the Blue Jackets for that. Wiz getting $6.5 per or whatever it was will inflate defensemen contracts for the next few years. We said the same thing for JvR, but if Coburn can finally put it all together, he can be a very good defenseman and $4-4.5 per will be a steal. He has freakishly athletic tools, great for a d-man, especially of his size. He just needs to stop forcing the play and making mistakes.
That may be the case, but I'd rather look at the market before jumping the gun and committing to Coburn. This team is too reliant on a 37 year old Pronger. When he goes out the d falls apart. How long are we going to have to wait for a soon to be 27 year old to put it together? He has gotten worse, not better.
You may be able to thank the Blue Jackets for that. Wiz getting $6.5 per or whatever it was will inflate defensemen contracts for the next few years. We said the same thing for JvR, but if Coburn can finally put it all together, he can be a very good defenseman and $4-4.5 per will be a steal. He has freakishly athletic tools, great for a d-man, especially of his size. He just needs to stop forcing the play and making mistakes.
Big, fluid-skating defensemen don't come by every year. Coburn is a once-in-5-years kind of guy. Barring injury he's going to be a solid player well into his 30s. He's only getting better, and the defensive position is one that gets refined with age.
Claiming either that he isn't worth 4.5m or claiming that he is worse than Carle is just jaw-dropping to me.
Last edited by Beef Invictus: 11-08-2011 at 08:54 PM.
Eh, Coburn starting to get alittle past the "if he can still put it together" stage.Late 20s early 30s are supposed to be his best years. Well he is in his late 20s now so...
Eh, Coburn starting to get alittle past the "if he can still put it together" stage.Late 20s early 30s are supposed to be his best years. Well he is in his late 20s now so...
I think the biggest problem here is that he won't become a #1 defenseman.
I'm okay with that. Him and Meszaros next to each other from now into the early 30s is a solid top-pairing or a great second pairing.
There's no room to throw the fear of not having a future #1 in the pool onto Coburn's deal. We have a draft coming up heavy with defensemen and the picks to make an impact.
If Coburn comes in at a reasonable price in an ever-accelerating cap world, I'm all for it; a reasonable price being 4.75m and below.
You're like that kid in highschool desperate for attention. Just shut up already. Nobody cares.
Big, fluid-skating defensemen don't come by every year. Coburn is a once-in-5-years kind of guy. Barring injury he's going to be a solid player well into his 30s. He's only getting better, and the defensive position is one that gets refined with age.
Claiming either that he isn't worth 4.5m or claiming that he is worse than Carle is just jaw-dropping to me.
Look at the list of defenseman cap hit's Damaged Goods provided. How many defenseman on making at least $4.5M were signed to their cap hits when they had no offensive ability? Komisarek is the only one I can see and his contract is regarded as terrible.
I think the biggest problem here is that he won't become a #1 defenseman.
I'm okay with that. Him and Meszaros next to each other from now into the early 30s is a solid top-pairing or a great second pairing.
There's no room to throw the fear of not having a future #1 in the pool onto Coburn's deal. We have a draft coming up heavy with defensemen and the picks to make an impact.
If Coburn comes in at a reasonable price in an ever-accelerating cap world, I'm all for it; a reasonable price being 4.75m and below.
he isnt even a #2. arguably a #3.
who was the last dman the flyers drafted outside the top 5 that has made any impact in the nhl for the flyers?
Look at the list of defenseman cap hit's Damaged Goods provided. How many defenseman on making at least $4.5M were signed to their cap hits when they had no offensive ability? Komisarek is the only one I can see and his contract is regarded as terrible.
Paul Martin is probably the most comparable defenseman actually.
Coburn is not on Paul Martin's level, but Martin has been in the same range we'd be discussing about point-wise since around the time he's been Coburn's age.
Add a little bit of $$ for cap inflation and you see around where Coburn should be: 4.00-4.50.
I think the biggest problem here is that he won't become a #1 defenseman.
I'm okay with that. Him and Meszaros next to each other from now into the early 30s is a solid top-pairing or a great second pairing.
There's no room to throw the fear of not having a future #1 in the pool onto Coburn's deal. We have a draft coming up heavy with defensemen and the picks to make an impact.
If Coburn comes in at a reasonable price in an ever-accelerating cap world, I'm all for it; a reasonable price being 4.75m and below.
This is honestly the funniest thing I've read. You are relying on picks they haven't even made.
Paul Martin is probably the most comparable defenseman actually.
Coburn is not on Paul Martin's level, but Martin has been in the same range we'd be discussing about point-wise since around the time he's been Coburn's age.
Add a little bit of $$ for cap inflation and you see around where Coburn should be: 4.00-4.50.
Paul Martin had two 30+ point seasons in a row plus 11 points in 22 games prior to signing with Pittsburgh. He has been considered a disappointment there.
Coburn has had two back to back season where he failed to reach 20 points and is currently on pace for 18. He is not Martin's comparable at all. His offensive game has been regressing since his first full season here.
This is honestly the funniest thing I've read. You are relying on picks they haven't even made.
You do realize we have Meszaros and Coburn in their mid-20s, two possible NHL puck-movers in Gustafsson and Kessel, a number of high picks in a deep defensive draft much resembling 2008, a star goalie signed long-term, a young star back-up goalie, and a significantly flooded depth in terms of forward assets that can be used to acquire more defensemen?
Yes, but I'm relying on picks in the 2012 draft to keep the puck out of our net for the next decade.
Really? You can do better than that Libertine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine
Paul Martin had two 30+ point seasons in a row plus 11 points in 22 games prior to signing with Pittsburgh. He has been considered a disappointment there.
Coburn has had two back to back season where he failed to reach 20 points and is currently on pace for 18. He is not Martin's comparable at all. His offensive game has been regressing since his first full season here.
Paul Martin at 26: 305 GP - 19 G - 99 A - 118 P - +24
Braydon Coburn at 26: 393 GP - 26 G - 88 A - 114 P - +31
Also because the two above are known for their offensive play...so we're comparing their offensive play. Awesome.
Last edited by Chris Shafer: 11-08-2011 at 08:10 PM.
You do realize we have Meszaros and Coburn in their mid-20s, two possible NHL puck-movers in Gustafsson and Kessel, a number of high picks in a deep defensive draft much resembling 2008, a star goalie signed long-term, a young star back-up goalie, and a significantly flooded depth in terms of forward assets that can be used to acquire more defensemen?
Yes, but I'm relying on picks in the 2012 draft to keep the puck out of our net for the next decade.
Really? You can do better than that Libertine.
You said "There's no room to throw the fear of not having a future #1 in the pool onto Coburn's deal. We have a draft coming up heavy with defensemen and the picks to make an impact."
You are relying on our future #1 to come from picks they have yet to make.
You do realize we have Meszaros and Coburn in their mid-20s, two possible NHL puck-movers in Gustafsson and Kessel, a number of high picks in a deep defensive draft much resembling 2008, a star goalie signed long-term, a young star back-up goalie, and a significantly flooded depth in terms of forward assets that can be used to acquire more defensemen?
Yes, but I'm relying on picks in the 2012 draft to keep the puck out of our net for the next decade.
Really? You can do better than that Libertine.
so they are in their mid 20's, so what? i bet you think that means they have to get better right? no way can they stay static or even regress right? a young star back up goalie, based on what? his 1 full year in the nhl? he isnt a star goalie by any means. You are the eternal optimist.
hopefully maybe ranford, testweed, holmstrum, pither or wellwood can help the flyers acquire that missing dman.
Nothing has been said after artard eklund reported this so im starting to believe that it might not be true or finalized just yet... maybe this should be closed before the pissing match going on in here gets out of control? And reopen when we get confirmation?
Evaluating defensemen just by point totals in the first place really misses the mark.
No one is evaluating his play on his point totals, but his worth on a potential contract. His limited offensive upside simply limits his worth. He is not a $4.5M+ defender as Chris is arguing.
No one is evaluating his play on his point totals, but his worth on a potential contract. His limited offensive upside simply limits his worth. He is not a $4.5M+ defender as Chris is arguing.
Byfuglien, Dustin » D WIN 26 5 $5,200,000
20. Rozsival, Michal » D PHO 33 4 $5,000,000
21. Martin, Paul » D PIT 30 5 $5,000,000
22. Pronger, Chris » D PHI 37 7 $4,921,429
23. Bieksa, Kevin » D VAN 30 5 $4,600,000
24. Hainsey, Ron » D WIN 30 5 $4,500,000
25. Komisarek, Mike » D TOR 29 5 $4,500,000
26. Hamhuis, Dan » D VAN 28 6 $4,500,000
27. Pitkanen, Joni » D CAR 28 3 $4,500,000
28. Johnson, Jack » D LAK 24 7 $4,357,143
29. Volchenkov, Anton » D NJD 29 6 $4,250,000
30. Kaberle, Tomas » D CAR 33 3 $4,250,000
31. Liles, John-Michael » D TOR 30 4 $4,200,000
32. Ballard, Keith » D VAN 28 6 $4,200,000
33. Jovanovski, Ed » D FLA 35 4 $4,125,000
34. Streit, Mark » D NYI 33 5 $4,100,000
35. Regehr, Robyn » D BUF 31 5 $4,020,000
36. Giordano, Mark » D CGY 28 5 $4,020,000
37. Gilbert, Tom » D EDM 28 6 $4,000,000
38. Whitney, Ryan » D EDM 28 6 $4,000,000
39. Meszaros, Andrej » D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000
40. Zidlicky, Marek » D MIN 34 3 $4,000,000
41. Michalek, Zbynek » D PIT 28 5 $4,000,000
42. Ehrhoff, Christian » D BUF 29 10 $4,000,000
43. Staal, Marc » D NYR 24 5 $3,975,000
44. Wideman, Dennis » D WAS 28 4 $3,937,500
I don't see a problem with throwing Coburn right into that group. There's a chunk that are better than Coburn, there's a chunk that are worse than Coburn. There's a chunk that are underpaid, there's a chunk that are overpaid.
Byfuglien, Dustin » D WIN 26 5 $5,200,000
20. Rozsival, Michal » D PHO 33 4 $5,000,000
21. Martin, Paul » D PIT 30 5 $5,000,000
22. Pronger, Chris » D PHI 37 7 $4,921,429
23. Bieksa, Kevin » D VAN 30 5 $4,600,000
24. Hainsey, Ron » D WIN 30 5 $4,500,000
25. Komisarek, Mike » D TOR 29 5 $4,500,000
26. Hamhuis, Dan » D VAN 28 6 $4,500,000
27. Pitkanen, Joni » D CAR 28 3 $4,500,000
28. Johnson, Jack » D LAK 24 7 $4,357,143
29. Volchenkov, Anton » D NJD 29 6 $4,250,000
30. Kaberle, Tomas » D CAR 33 3 $4,250,000
31. Liles, John-Michael » D TOR 30 4 $4,200,000
32. Ballard, Keith » D VAN 28 6 $4,200,000
33. Jovanovski, Ed » D FLA 35 4 $4,125,000
34. Streit, Mark » D NYI 33 5 $4,100,000
35. Regehr, Robyn » D BUF 31 5 $4,020,000
36. Giordano, Mark » D CGY 28 5 $4,020,000
37. Gilbert, Tom » D EDM 28 6 $4,000,000
38. Whitney, Ryan » D EDM 28 6 $4,000,000
39. Meszaros, Andrej » D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000
40. Zidlicky, Marek » D MIN 34 3 $4,000,000
41. Michalek, Zbynek » D PIT 28 5 $4,000,000
42. Ehrhoff, Christian » D BUF 29 10 $4,000,000
43. Staal, Marc » D NYR 24 5 $3,975,000
44. Wideman, Dennis » D WAS 28 4 $3,937,500
I don't see a problem with throwing Coburn right into that group. There's a chunk that are better than Coburn, there's a chunk that are worse than Coburn. There's a chunk that are underpaid, there's a chunk that are overpaid.
I'd take Coburn ahead of Tom Gilbert and Keith Ballard on that list. That's it. Everyone else is ahead of Coburn. The man just simply isn't a good defenseman. He's got all the tools be a top 2 defender, but just doesn't have the smarts to put it all together on a full time basis. When Coburn finished up his first year in Philadelphia, he was on his way to becoming a star. When he got hit in the face with the puck in the Pittsburgh Eastern Final Series, that was it. It changed him and he's never been the same. He'll never get it back and the Flyers need to stop being patient with Coburn in thinking that he will. He should have been traded elsewhere by now.
