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Diaz got his chance, is it Emelin's now?

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11-11-2011, 11:38 AM
  #101
Jigger77
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
"Diaz has been the better player and by a fair margin."

This is the sort of myopic player assessment that has hurt the Habs. A defensive corps is not about who is "better" it is about balance including puck-movers, stay-at-home guys, powerplay quarterback and a mean s.o.b etc. We need a physical guy in Emelin we don't need a Weber clone in Diaz. But again, JM would ice a team of Darches if he could ...

"JM ... is actually really good at developing young players and yes that means not over-exposing them too early sometimes and benching them as well."

I think you are in a very small minority with this one. JM primarily uses negative reinforcement with young players -- if they err, they are benched. This is consistent with his general anti-hockey strategy that focuses not on scoring but on stifling. This does not create a supportive environment in which young players can learn and develop.

We've seen many of our young assets traded away for nothing then flourish elsewhere. JM could not develop them. Enough is enough, Emelin is a KHL All-Star and Russian National Team defenceman. I'll take that over assessments based on alzheimers coach sitting him for half the games and benching him in the others.
Well have fun finding your coach that plays rookies more when they err then. I really don't know what to tell you other than you're living in a dream world if you think a coach in the NHL is going to reward rookies with more icetime when they make mistakes. This is the big show, not some houseleague where mom gets upset if her son isn't playing as much as the coaches son.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Diaz was good early on, but has struggled the last 5 games...Emelin also at times, but he's been sitting for half the games while Diaz has played each one. Also, Diaz doesn't have the laguage barrier Emelin does.
Diaz has struggled a bit lately I agree. It's not like I'm buying a Diaz jersey trust me. But he hasn't made the glaring positional errors Emelin has and he keeps his feet moving in the defensive zone. Emelin just looks a bit lost right now. Maybe when Markov comes back it will help him understand where Martin wants him to be on the ice.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 11-11-2011 at 12:17 PM. Reason: merge
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11-11-2011, 11:41 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
No coach would sit Gill and Spacek to play Emelin and Diaz.
I would hope that Spacek and Gill would sit occasionally if we have no injuries for an extended stretch. As an NHL coach you have to use your whole roster, especially when the bottom guys are young players...if Mara or darche sits 10 straight games it has no long term effect, but for a young player just breaking in it makes it very hard.

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11-11-2011, 11:44 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I would hope that Spacek and Gill would sit occasionally if we have no injuries for an extended stretch. As an NHL coach you have to use your whole roster, especially when the bottom guys are young players...if Mara or darche sits 10 straight games it has no long term effect, but for a young player just breaking in it makes it very hard.
You can't sit Gill or Spacek. Gill is our best penalty killer and we all know how much time we spend in the box. Spacek has been one of our most solid defensemen this year and like it or not his return stopped the bleeding. It's those guys that help rookies too. Emelin said so himself didn't he?

The only way veterans like that sit is if we're locked in for a playoff spot and there are less than 10 games left in the season. Even then, it should be their decision.

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11-11-2011, 12:01 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Well have fun finding your coach that plays rookies more when they err then. I really don't know what to tell you other than you're living in a dream world if you think a coach in the NHL is going to reward rookies with more icetime when they make mistakes. This is the big show, not some houseleague where mom gets upset if her son isn't playing as much as the coaches son.

The Habs' youngsters do get sufficient icetime and opportunities to develop into the players they can be. Except that usually happens once they get traded to another team.

It does not take a genius: Who is our future: Emelin or Gill? Think of the future, especially when 14th out of 15 in the conference. You didn't respond to my point about not needing a second Weber in Diaz going forward; but rather needing a physical presence in Emelin. Cool story about the mom and her son though.

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11-11-2011, 12:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
The Habs' youngsters do get sufficient icetime and opportunities to develop into the players they can be. Except that usually happens once they get traded to another team.

It does not take a genius: Who is our future: Emelin or Gill? Think of the future, especially when 14th out of 15 in the conference. You didn't respond to my point about not needing a second Weber in Diaz going forward; but rather needing a physical presence in Emelin. Cool story about the mom and her son though.
Diaz and Emelin are both in their first seasons in North America. Weber has had several games this year around the 20 minute mark.

Subban consistently plays lots. Eller has been getting more minutes. Pacioretty same thing.

This notion about Martin being some young player hating yahoo who doesn't give youngsters any opportunities is so laughably bad it's not even funny.

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11-11-2011, 12:13 PM
  #106
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I'm on Jigger's side on this one.

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11-11-2011, 12:18 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I'm on Jigger's side on this one.
I hope that Spacek and Gill get sat out the odd game, just to keep them fresher for a playoff run.

I'm quite certain that once Markov is back, Diaz will go to Hamilton to play 20 minutes a night.

One of Emelin or Weber won't be in the line up most nights, both if Campoli comes back (who is hardly a lock to play over Weber BTW) which is a shame, but they are young and have lots of years to come. Hopefully they take it with a positive attitude. I for one am quite confident in Weber as a top 4 d-man on this team moving forward. Not sure about Yemelin but I've liked what Ive seen.

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11-11-2011, 12:23 PM
  #108
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Darche has less time on ice per game than Emelin and AK so I'm not sure where you are getting that idea other than a few people repeating it constantly on this site. It's not like it's magic looking this stuff up it's all on NHL.com.

And this is despite the fact that AK doesn't kill penalties and Darche does. So I really don't get why you people think Martin has a "love affair" with Darche. Darche is 6th last in toi per game on the team. Stop saying he's getting some sort of privileged treatment. He is a second tier utility player and is being used as such.

Diaz has been considerably better than Emelin. DD wouldn't get nearly that icetime if we had our second line center.
ARE YOU FOR REAL?!?

Darche is a complete plug compared to AK and he's got more ice time than AK on the PP. A second tier utility player isn't a mainstay on the PP after 15 games with no production. He has ONE point this year.

And have you not noticed the ongoing crap that's been going on between AK and Jacques Martin for two years?????????

Never mind responding. This is ridiculous.

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11-11-2011, 12:25 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Emelin's situation reminds me of O'byrne...a guy with the exact tools we need but he plays with a very short leash compared to other players and it will probably spell his demise.
Well said! Plus Emelin has the KHL option. I wonder what Emelin was thinking, sitting on the bench, and watching Diaz lose every defensive zone battle.

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11-11-2011, 12:29 PM
  #110
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Emelin is on a short leash because he keeps making mistakes, big ones. His positional play is off and he chases way too much.

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11-11-2011, 12:42 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
ARE YOU FOR REAL?!?

Darche is a complete plug compared to AK and he's got more ice time than AK on the PP. A second tier utility player isn't a mainstay on the PP after 15 games with no production. He has ONE point this year.

And have you not noticed the ongoing crap that's been going on between AK and Jacques Martin for two years?????????

Never mind responding. This is ridiculous.
I agree with you that AK should have more PP time than Darche. I also think that is not going to be the case when we look at the icetime at the end of the year. (and keep in mind we're talking 9 seconds difference average per game here)


I don't blindly agree with every little thing JM does. I also don't blindly agree with perpetuated fallacies about JM ruining young players or playing favourites for the hell of it because that is pure nonsense.


Last edited by Jigger77: 11-11-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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11-11-2011, 12:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
The Habs' youngsters do get sufficient icetime and opportunities to develop into the players they can be. Except that usually happens once they get traded to another team.

It does not take a genius: Who is our future: Emelin or Gill? Think of the future, especially when 14th out of 15 in the conference. You didn't respond to my point about not needing a second Weber in Diaz going forward; but rather needing a physical presence in Emelin. Cool story about the mom and her son though.
Future is fine. We need to win games now. And I would consider trading one of Weber or Diaz (probably Diaz) when we get our healthy roster because you are absolutely right that they kind of offer the same things and Emelin has that physical dimension neither of them do. But in Emelin's case RIGHT NOW that is potential.

I don't want to sacrifice the team winning games right now for the sake of Emelin and his no movement clause sorry. You have to ice the best possible team you can.

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11-11-2011, 01:34 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Emelin is on a short leash because he keeps making mistakes, big ones. His positional play is off and he chases way too much.
His mistakes are no bigger than Diaz's.

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11-11-2011, 01:37 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
His mistakes are no bigger than Diaz's.
That is where I disagree and it also why we won't agree. I also think Diaz's overall game is much better than Yemelin's and that is why he is in the lineup, I think he is the better puck mover(though it's not like Yemelin sucks in that department). The only thing Yemelin has over Diaz in the physical game, but I don't see how that justifies putting him the lineup.

No one is going to give him chances on a silver platter, when he gets his chance he needs to show that he deserves to play, he hasn't imo. He looks tentative, scared and his reaction time is too slow. Sure you'll say that he can only improve that stuff by playing and I agree, however, the Canadiens don't have the luxury of being risky right now, they need to win games and Martin is playing the players he feel will do that. I don't agree with all his decisions like Darche on the PP, but I do with Diaz.

Also to the guy who said that Martin doesn't favor youngsters or rookies and that is why Yemelin is not playing...isn't Diaz also a rookie and Martin is letting him play. You are contradicting yourself by whining about that. All these conspiracies about Martin hating rookies and not liking physical players is stupid.


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11-11-2011, 03:36 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Diaz and Emelin are both in their first seasons in North America. Weber has had several games this year around the 20 minute mark.

Subban consistently plays lots. Eller has been getting more minutes. Pacioretty same thing.

This notion about Martin being some young player hating yahoo who doesn't give youngsters any opportunities is so laughably bad it's not even funny.
Martin used to habitually bench spezza when he was younger because he couldnt play D. As soon as he was fired Spezza practically instantly became their number 1 center.

Now, the fact that Martin has started to forgive young players for their mistakes is a good thing; however, I believe that has more to do with the fact that Martin realized that our veterans suck (for the most part). The fact that he still plays darche on the PP over Andrei shows that he has bias for certain players. He cannot possibly believe that Darche is the better option. He's soft as butter and has no offensive instincts or hands...

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11-11-2011, 03:40 PM
  #116
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Future is fine. We need to win games now. And I would consider trading one of Weber or Diaz (probably Diaz) when we get our healthy roster because you are absolutely right that they kind of offer the same things and Emelin has that physical dimension neither of them do. But in Emelin's case RIGHT NOW that is potential.

I don't want to sacrifice the team winning games right now for the sake of Emelin and his no movement clause sorry. You have to ice the best possible team you can.
Graph one: Agree.

Graph two: The thing is we are not winning games right now. In this situation, a responsive coach would try something new. But JM delivers more Darche, the 35 year old journeyman who was a career AHLer until 2010. Don't get me wrong, Darche can play a role, but not by taking power play time away from AK and Eller, which is what JM has him doing with this gormless power play strategy.

Meanwhile, opposition is skating right through our defence. Maybe, just maybe, we are not icing the best possible team when we have next to no physical presence on the blueline. Given our position in the standings, a responsive coach would try something new. But JM continues to sit or bench our most physical defenceman. Sorry I've had enough of this madness.

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11-11-2011, 04:53 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Graph one: Agree.

Graph two: The thing is we are not winning games right now. In this situation, a responsive coach would try something new. But JM delivers more Darche, the 35 year old journeyman who was a career AHLer until 2010. Don't get me wrong, Darche can play a role, but not by taking power play time away from AK and Eller, which is what JM has him doing with this gormless power play strategy.

Meanwhile, opposition is skating right through our defence. Maybe, just maybe, we are not icing the best possible team when we have next to no physical presence on the blueline. Given our position in the standings, a responsive coach would try something new. But JM continues to sit or bench our most physical defenceman. Sorry I've had enough of this madness.
The habs are not winning? They are 5-2-0 since the Pearn firing.

Sure Yemelin is the most physical but he's also been the worst d-man since. I don't see why he should get a pass because he plays physical when the rest of his game is off.

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11-11-2011, 05:03 PM
  #118
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The only way veterans like that sit is if we're locked in for a playoff spot and there are less than 10 games left in the season. Even then, it should be their decision.
What??? You want the players to decide whether or not they should play?

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11-11-2011, 05:08 PM
  #119
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What??? You want the players to decide whether or not they should play?


No. I said the only time you bench a veteran (unless something is majorly wrong which in this case it isn't) is to rest them going into the playoffs. Kind of like making practices optional that time of year. It's common practice throughout the NHL.

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11-11-2011, 05:12 PM
  #120
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I liked how Diaz started playing more physical, but he really has completely TERRIBLE positioning. When Campoli gets back, I want him in Hamilton playing top minutes and working with the coaches on his positioning/angles.

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11-11-2011, 05:16 PM
  #121
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The habs are not winning? They are 5-2-0 since the Pearn firing.

Sure Yemelin is the most physical but he's also been the worst d-man since. I don't see why he should get a pass because he plays physical when the rest of his game is off.
I have to love your analysis, that Emelin has been the worst defenseman on the ice since Perry Pearn was fired. He hasn't played so how do you make that judgment.... well that is stretching it but he hasn't played enough for anyone to make a valid judgment.

In the seven games prior to the Phoenix game, Emelin had played a total of 10:44. When you include the Phoenix game, he played 17:51. Some might say it is a little difficult to acclimatize yourself to a system when you are playing one game in seven. Others will say that he needs to know the system before more playing time is justified.

During that time his +/- was zero so it is hard to say that he cost the Habs anything. I think I could live with developing a guy if the team is competitive when he is on the ice, especially when he brings an element to the game that we are sorely lacking.

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11-11-2011, 05:27 PM
  #122
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When Campoli gets back, I want him in Hamilton playing top minutes and working with the coaches on his positioning/angles.
Campoli or Diaz?

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11-11-2011, 05:28 PM
  #123
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I have to love your analysis, that Emelin has been the worst defenseman on the ice since Perry Pearn was fired. He hasn't played so how do you make that judgment.... well that is stretching it but he hasn't played enough for anyone to make a valid judgment.

In the seven games prior to the Phoenix game, Emelin had played a total of 10:44. When you include the Phoenix game, he played 17:51. Some might say it is a little difficult to acclimatize yourself to a system when you are playing one game in seven. Others will say that he needs to know the system before more playing time is justified.

During that time his +/- was zero so it is hard to say that he cost the Habs anything. I think I could live with developing a guy if the team is competitive when he is on the ice, especially when he brings an element to the game that we are sorely lacking.
I didn't mean since the Pearn firing, I meant since the start of the season. I didn't write it in because I wrote it on my phone and didn't proof read.

I still don't think Yemelin has shown that he's better than Diaz and I don't think his physical presence justifies playing him over Diaz.

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11-11-2011, 05:43 PM
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I didn't mean since the Pearn firing, I meant since the start of the season. I didn't write it in because I wrote it on my phone and didn't proof read.

I still don't think Yemelin has shown that he's better than Diaz and I don't think his physical presence justifies playing him over Diaz.
Well that is a tough comparison because Diaz has been allowed to play through many mistakes whereas Emelin has either watched from the press-box or the bench when he errs.

I would say it is challenging to develop any rhythm to your game or any feel for the system when you play one game in seven. It is even more challenging if you think the press box is waiting whenever you make a mistake.

If the team wants to move forward and develop some of the younger players for the future, they are going to have to live with those mistakes in the short term.

The lack of development of young players continues to haunt this team. It seems like it happens only when the coaching staff has no other alternatives (See Subban 2010-11)

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11-11-2011, 06:10 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
The Habs' youngsters do get sufficient icetime and opportunities to develop into the players they can be. Except that usually happens once they get traded to another team.

It does not take a genius: Who is our future: Emelin or Gill? Think of the future, especially when 14th out of 15 in the conference. You didn't respond to my point about not needing a second Weber in Diaz going forward; but rather needing a physical presence in Emelin. Cool story about the mom and her son though.
You make far too much sense, sir! Please stop.

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