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Orr vs. Gretzky (Vote and Head-to-Head Comparison)

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Old
11-10-2011, 12:52 PM
  #51
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
If you made a top 5 offensive Defensemen of all time list, would any of them make it? None would make mine. Meanwhile Gretzky is being compared to guys like Lemieux, who are top 4 players of all time, regardless of position, let alone niche possitions like offensive defensemen.

Regardless, none of that has anything to do with Gretzky's superior prime, longevity, or international play - all the reasons I originally stated for chosing him over Orr. Even if you could somehow make me care about Orr's scoring dominance over a bunch of players who weren't trying to score goals, it wouldn't change anything about Gretzky or all the reasons I think he was better.
Actually Brad Park has a pretty solid case, especially if you take linemates into context. Red Kelly, Paul Coffey and Denis Potvin had vastly superior linemates, yet park was right up there with them from 1972-78. Im sure park would have loved playing with howe and gretzky and getting his stats padded.

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11-10-2011, 01:57 PM
  #52
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You're comparing them as if hockey is a one-on-one game., like Orr can stop Gretzky more times than Gretzky can stop Orr. That's not how it works, it's a team game. It has been clearly proven that Gretzky playing the way he did results in success when a team is assembled around him correctly, and a lot of that success came at the hands of Gretzky scoring clutch goals.

The cherry picker comment is completely false. Gretzky certainly wasn't the best defensive center in the league or even close, but he wasn't a Pavel Bure in Florida either.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm fine with people saying Orr had the better peak, I go back and forth on it myself and pick Orr more often than not, but I do not agree with people saying the peak difference between the two is so large that it makes up for the huge edge in longevity that Gretzky has.
A cherry picker is someone who does not backcheck but waits between the blue line and centre line when the puck is in their end. 99 did a ton of this I've seen with my own eyes many many times.

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11-10-2011, 06:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
This. This debate really comes down to which style of play you prefer, because if it was based simply on results (ie, creating more goals for your team than the opposition), Gretzky wins handedly.
But "creating more goals" is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.

If Gretzky gets 5 points in a game, that's great.

If Orr gets 3 points in said game, and his defensive play prevents 3 goals the other team would've scored were he less skilled defensively, I would say that the way it comes out, Orr, in this case, would've had the better game. Sure, he didn't help his team score as much as Gretzky did, but he helped his team to win more than Gretzky did.

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11-10-2011, 07:48 PM
  #54
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A cherry picker is someone who does not backcheck but waits between the blue line and centre line when the puck is in their end. 99 did a ton of this I've seen with my own eyes many many times.
Having watched Gretzky as well I have to ask if you are sure you were watching the right player, because your description is completely wrong.

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11-10-2011, 08:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg View Post
But "creating more goals" is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.

If Gretzky gets 5 points in a game, that's great.

If Orr gets 3 points in said game, and his defensive play prevents 3 goals the other team would've scored were he less skilled
defensively, I would say that the way it comes out, Orr, in this case, would've had the better game. Sure, he didn't help his team score
as much as Gretzky did, but he helped his team to win more than Gretzky did.
I don't know if you read the 2nd part of my statement where I said Gretzky was the best ever at creating "more goals than the opposition". Outscoring your opposition is the object (and THE only way to win a game) of hockey. If he were simply creating more goals than Orr without taking the opposition's goals into consideration, then I agree, Orr could be better.

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11-10-2011, 08:05 PM
  #56
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Given exactly equal goaltending, a team of "Bobby Orrs" beats a team of "Wayne Gretzky's". Fantasy of course, but it's a good way to compare players, especially who played different positions. It just takes some imagination.

The Gretzky team has the advantage in playmaking, (but not by a huge margin) the Orr team the advantage in skating, and shooting is pretty equal. What makes the difference is that the Gretzky team doesn't hit, clear the crease, fight along the boards, etc. You can't give up all that territory and win.

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11-10-2011, 08:17 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Given exactly equal goaltending, a team of "Bobby Orrs" beats a team of "Wayne Gretzky's". Fantasy of course, but it's a good way to compare players, especially who played different positions. It just takes some imagination.

The Gretzky team has the advantage in playmaking, (but not by a huge margin) the Orr team the advantage in skating, and shooting is pretty equal. What makes the difference is that the Gretzky team doesn't hit, clear the crease, fight along the boards, etc. You can't give up all that territory and win.
In that fictional world, Orr is better, but those arguments are irrelevant.

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11-10-2011, 08:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Given exactly equal goaltending, a team of "Bobby Orrs" beats a team of "Wayne Gretzky's". Fantasy of course, but it's a good way to compare players, especially who played different positions. It just takes some imagination.

The Gretzky team has the advantage in playmaking, (but not by a huge margin) the Orr team the advantage in skating, and shooting is pretty equal. What makes the difference is that the Gretzky team doesn't hit, clear the crease, fight along the boards, etc.
You can't give up all that territory and win.
It would be a great game, but I wouldn't so easily discount an entire team of Gretzky clones. Remember, Gretzky knew where every player was at all times. The problem was that his teammates were often not smart enough to understand what he wanted them to do in any given moment. Now, imagine for a second what an entire team of Gretzkys could do knowing that each one of them would know EXACTLY what the other WANTED them to do. This would be a thousand times more scary than the Sedin twins, for example. Imagine how scary two Gretzkys would be compared to the Sedin twins. Now imagine 5 of them working in perfect unison. Scary. It wouldn't matter if Orr could out muscle them if he could never touch the puck. As great a skater as Orr was, the puck would be moving a lot faster than Orr could skate, rest assured.

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11-11-2011, 11:51 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
It would be a great game, but I wouldn't so easily discount an entire team of Gretzky clones. Remember, Gretzky knew where every player was at all times. The problem was that his teammates were often not smart enough to understand what he wanted them to do in any given moment. Now, imagine for a second what an entire team of Gretzkys could do knowing that each one of them would know EXACTLY what the other WANTED them to do. This would be a thousand times more scary than the Sedin twins, for example. Imagine how scary two Gretzkys would be compared to the Sedin twins. Now imagine 5 of them working in perfect unison. Scary. It wouldn't matter if Orr could out muscle them if he could never touch the puck. As great a skater as Orr was, the puck would be moving a lot faster than Orr could skate, rest assured.
But you're discounting the fact that Orr had great anticipation/intelligence (whatever we want to call it ) also. Gretzky might have an edge there, but again it wouldn't be a huge edge. 5 Orr's working in unison is even scarier I think, because a slight disadvantage in anticipation would more than be made up for by superior speed. Imagine a forward line of Orr's on a fast break against a couple of Gretzky's playing defense? How would they stop that? To think that Orr would never touch the puck is a bit unrealistic. Remember what it was like trying to get the puck from Orr? He could practically kill an entire 2 minute penalty by himself. Imagine 5 of him?

And I think the muscle factor would be the big difference because, even though hitting/toughness is not as important as the skill game, if you have a huge disparity in the physical aspect it would prove the deciding factor. There are areas on the ice that have to be defended physically. It was not in Gretzky's physical or mental make-up to do that. Other guys on his team had to take care of the physical stuff that not to mention he always had an abundance of enforcers to defend him personally. On an "all-Gretzky" team, there would be no one but 170lb. weaklings with no grit. I think the Bobby Orr's would run them right off the ice

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11-11-2011, 12:09 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Given exactly equal goaltending, a team of "Bobby Orrs" beats a team of "Wayne Gretzky's". Fantasy of course, but it's a good way to compare players, especially who played different positions. It just takes some imagination.

The Gretzky team has the advantage in playmaking, (but not by a huge margin) the Orr team the advantage in skating, and shooting is pretty equal. What makes the difference is that the Gretzky team doesn't hit, clear the crease, fight along the boards, etc. You can't give up all that territory and win.
But hockey isn't a game of 5 v 5 clones. It's making what you can of different players of different skill levels. Gretzky was better at that than anyone. And frankly, he didn't need to clear the crease (he was too small to do that effectively anyways) because he had others that could do it for him.

The Orr camp seem to like him because he could do everything. That's fine - in fact, it's a great arguement. But my point is that its a team game - and Gretzky shouldn't be expected to do everything, because that's precisely why he has teammates. Let the bigger and less skilled players do what they do best - fight for pucks and clear the crease. Let Gretzky do what he does best - score points on offense, and record the most takeaways of all time on defense while recording the best +/- of any forward ever.

P.S. Gretzky has a pretty substantial edge in playmaking. He averaged 1.32 assist/game in his career. Even if we only take his career from 88-99 and ignore his entire Edmonton experience, he had 836 assist in 719 games. That equals 1.16 assists/game, which is higher than anyone else ever (Lemieux has 1.129 and is in 2nd place).

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11-11-2011, 01:19 PM
  #61
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But Orr did play in 76 Canada Cup but only on one leg. Tied for lead in scoring and was tournament MVP.
True, but I was isolating their prime seasons. So for Orr I left out a Canada Cup and pretty much nothing in the playoffs. I wanted to line up their primes, because unless Orr is VERY FAR ahead of Gretzky there, he has no chance against Gretzky's longevity.

You have to believe that Orr's 2 cups, 6 100-point seasons, and highlight reels (that have a ton of clips against the Blues, Kings, and North Stars but very few against the Habs or in the playoffs) are light years ahead of a guy who averaged 200 points a season, won every MVP award, led the league in goals 5 of 6 years, and assists and points in 6 of 6 years, led playoff scoring 4 times, Canada Cup scoring twice, and kept his strong performances going into the playoffs at a level unmatched by any star in history, including Bobby Orr.

I don't think Orr wins prime vs prime, and I don't think he wins by a mile. While +124 was a nice number for Orr to talk about on the golf course as the Bruins watched the playoffs on TV, +28 helped win a Cup.

Orr has a Canada Cup and a pair of Norris Trophies outside those six years. Outside the six prime years, Gretzky has 3 Harts, a Conn Smythe, led the Canada Cup in scoring twice, led the playoffs in scoring twice with 2 of the best 4 point totals in history, led the NHL in points 4 times and was tied for the lead a fifth time.

He led the league in assists 10 times WITHOUT his six best years. (Leaves him with 79-80 to 80-81, and 87-88 to 98-99.) If those six years never happen he may no longer be the best player of all time but he's a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer and his playoff record is STILL better than Orr.

Toss them in and Gretzky has more assists than anyone else has points, and won more Harts (and Hart Trophy shares) than Orr won Norris Trophies.

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11-11-2011, 01:30 PM
  #62
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For me it's easily Orr.

The old adage is who would win between a team of 5 Orr's vs. 5 Gretzky's. Gretzky wouldn't touch the puck.

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11-11-2011, 01:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
Given exactly equal goaltending, a team of "Bobby Orrs" beats a team of "Wayne Gretzky's". Fantasy of course, but it's a good way to compare players, especially who played different positions. It just takes some imagination.

The Gretzky team has the advantage in playmaking, (but not by a huge margin) the Orr team the advantage in skating, and shooting is pretty equal. What makes the difference is that the Gretzky team doesn't hit, clear the crease, fight along the boards, etc. You can't give up all that territory and win.
But with that logic a team of all Patrick Roy get destroyed by a team of all Donald Brashear pretty easily.

One the best thing to do to say how good a player is, is to look how much your hockey team is better at hockey (winning the game) if he play at his position instead of the average nhler at that position.

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11-11-2011, 05:41 PM
  #64
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For me it's easily Orr.

The old adage is who would win between a team of 5 Orr's vs. 5 Gretzky's. Gretzky wouldn't touch the puck.

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11-11-2011, 05:53 PM
  #65
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For me it's easily Orr.

The old adage is who would win between a team of 5 Orr's vs. 5 Gretzky's. Gretzky wouldn't touch the puck.
That old adage has no worth. This isn't the History of Fictional 5 on 5 Pickup Hockey board. NHL hockey is played on teams. A team of Datsyuks might have kept the puck away from the team of Gretzkys just like Orr did. Are you saying Datysuk can now compete with Gretz for the title of GOAT?

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11-11-2011, 05:54 PM
  #66
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For me it's easily Orr.

The old adage is who would win between a team of 5 Orr's vs. 5 Gretzky's. Gretzky wouldn't touch the puck.
And the 5 lion robots could combine into Voltron and would beat a team of 5 Bobby Orrs, and that is just as plausible a thought experiment.

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11-11-2011, 05:57 PM
  #67
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That old adage has no worth. This isn't the History of Fictional 5 on 5 Pickup Hockey board. NHL hockey is played on teams. A team of Datsyuks might have kept the puck away from the team of Gretzkys just like Orr did. Are you saying Datysuk can now compete with Gretz for the title of GOAT?
Damn you beat me to it.

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11-11-2011, 06:05 PM
  #68
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True, but I was isolating their prime seasons. So for Orr I left out a Canada Cup and pretty much nothing in the playoffs. I wanted to line up their primes, because unless Orr is VERY FAR ahead of Gretzky there, he has no chance against Gretzky's longevity.

You have to believe that Orr's 2 cups, 6 100-point seasons, and highlight reels (that have a ton of clips against the Blues, Kings, and North Stars but very few against the Habs or in the playoffs) are light years ahead of a guy who averaged 200 points a season, won every MVP award, led the league in goals 5 of 6 years, and assists and points in 6 of 6 years, led playoff scoring 4 times, Canada Cup scoring twice, and kept his strong performances going into the playoffs at a level unmatched by any star in history, including Bobby Orr.

I don't think Orr wins prime vs prime, and I don't think he wins by a mile. While +124 was a nice number for Orr to talk about on the golf course as the Bruins watched the playoffs on TV, +28 helped win a Cup.

Orr has a Canada Cup and a pair of Norris Trophies outside those six years. Outside the six prime years, Gretzky has 3 Harts, a Conn Smythe, led the Canada Cup in scoring twice, led the playoffs in scoring twice with 2 of the best 4 point totals in history, led the NHL in points 4 times and was tied for the lead a fifth time.

He led the league in assists 10 times WITHOUT his six best years. (Leaves him with 79-80 to 80-81, and 87-88 to 98-99.) If those six years never happen he may no longer be the best player of all time but he's a surefire first ballot Hall of Famer and his playoff record is STILL better than Orr.

Toss them in and Gretzky has more assists than anyone else has points, and won more Harts (and Hart Trophy shares) than Orr won Norris Trophies.
I guess I didn't read your original post close enough. Now that I have I realize you were trying to isolate each players 6 year peak. Conveniently Gretzky's includes a couple of Canada Cups whereas Orr's excludes his one Canada cup.

Anyways, using offensive stats to compare a centre and a Dman doesn't mean much to me. I don't find that the Hart differential means much either. In Orr's day they were using the team MVP definition which is why Clarke often beat out Orr (Espo winning I can't fathom at all).

I prefer the eye test and I was around for both careers. Without a doubt, Bobby Orr was the most skilled player I have had the privilege of watching.

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11-11-2011, 06:40 PM
  #69
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^^^ This debate isn't based on whose skill was better. Like some mentioned, many players had arguably more skill than Gretzky, but does that make them the greatest of all time?

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11-11-2011, 06:44 PM
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^^^ This debate isn't based on whose skill was better. Like some mentioned, many players had arguably more skill than Gretzky, but does that make them the greatest of all time?
Depends on how you define Greatest. Some people go by stats, others by what they saw. If it makes you happy take out the word "skilled" and insert "greatest" in my post #68. "crazy" right.

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11-11-2011, 07:49 PM
  #71
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Depends on how you define Greatest. Some people go by stats, others by what they saw. If it makes you happy take out the word "skilled" and insert "greatest" in my post #68. "crazy" right.
That's just it though. If you want to find greatness in Gretzky just by watching HIM, you'll be looking for the rest of your life. Because to appreciate Gretzky, you couldn't really watch Gretzky; you had to watch the puck, and how he and the puck would come together after coming apart. To this day very few people understand the game Gretzky was playing out there. It may not have LOOKED any different (hence the misunderstanding), but the game he was playing was not the same game at all...not even close. Gretzky could see a play as though all three aspects of it -- future, past, and present -- were all the same thing, at any given moment, at any given space on the ice....to the point he could actually dictate other players' moves! Think about that for a second: He could actually control where and when a player would react before they even knew what they themselves were going to do. That is why Gretzky was scoring 80 to a 100 points more than anyone else on his team throughout the 80s. But all of this is moot if we expect to see physical greatness from Gretzky (other than, you know, the actual results themselves).


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11-11-2011, 07:52 PM
  #72
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That's just it though. If you want to find greatness in Gretzky just by watching HIM, you'll be looking for the rest of your life. Because to appreciate Gretzky, you couldn't really watch Gretzky; you had to watch the puck, and how he and the puck would come together after coming apart. To this day very few people understand the game Gretzky was playing out there. It may not have LOOKED any different (hence the misunderstanding), but the game he was playing was not the same game at all...not even close. Gretzky could see a play as though all three aspects of it -- future, past, and present -- were all the same thing, at any given moment, at any given space on the ice....to the point he could actually dictate other players' moves! Think about that for a second: He could actually control where and when a player would react before they even knew what they themselves were going to do. That is why Gretzky was scoring 80 to a 100 points more than anyone else on his team throughout the 80s. But all of this is moot if we expect to see physical greatness from Gretzky (other than, you know, the actual results themselves),
I fully realize that Gretzky's game was more subtle than Orr's. does that change my opinion? Nope.

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11-11-2011, 08:01 PM
  #73
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I fully realize that Gretzky's game was more subtle than Orr's. does that change my opinion? Nope.
Which is ok, we're all entitled to our opinion. But to base our opinion simply on "what we saw" will not work in Gretzky's case since clearly none of us saw the same game he was seeing.

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11-11-2011, 08:15 PM
  #74
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Which is ok, we're all entitled to our opinion. But to base our opinion simply on "what we saw" will not work in Gretzky's case since clearly none of us saw the same game he was seeing.
Are you actually saying we should ignore what we saw and base our ranking entirely on offensive stats even though we are comparing a Dman & a centre who played at different times. sadly there are many who will agree with you. BTW, are you old enough to have seen Orr play.

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11-11-2011, 09:52 PM
  #75
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That old adage has no worth. This isn't the History of Fictional 5 on 5 Pickup Hockey board. NHL hockey is played on teams. A team of Datsyuks might have kept the puck away from the team of Gretzkys just like Orr did. Are you saying Datysuk can now compete with Gretz for the title of GOAT?
Imagine all the dangles

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