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TSST: Hall, Paajarvi, The Messiah, and Peckman, Hemsky will never be the same

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Old
11-12-2011, 11:56 AM
  #101
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NO HE SUCKS FOREVER TRADE HIM NOW!!!! LOUD NOISES!!!!
Weren't You banned from here once before DSF?

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11-12-2011, 11:58 AM
  #102
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I think anyone who has watched the oilers for the past several years can see the difference between Smid and Peckham. Peckham has just been filler for a spot we haven't been able to fill with anyone better, and that needs to change if we ever want to become a playoff team.

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11-12-2011, 12:00 PM
  #103
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Some people forget that it's only year 2 of the "rebuild".

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11-12-2011, 12:03 PM
  #104
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I have a very hard time taking any disconcerting signals seriously while Hall & his team work their way through the annual "rodeo trip" against each of the last 3 Cup champs.

He's going to have a hard game tommorow in CHI. Just like he did in BOS & DET.

But really...who else in the NHL will face these 3 teams in consecutive road games this year?

Its an anomaly.

That doesn't discount there are other times, against other teams, when Hall hasn't dominated. Im just sayin. We gotta be patient with him.

He needs to learn when/where to pick his spots. He will also benefit, exponentially, from Ryan Whitney getting going again.

Hall is a deep threat. He is more dangerous when he is catching passes than he is...carrying the puck in a straight line up the wing. Pretty much every "speed winger" can be described like this.

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11-12-2011, 12:14 PM
  #105
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To be honest, i find Theo Peckham to be a great defensive D-man. You all may hate him for a few early mistakes, but he is a fairly solid player. Haters gunna hate.
Based on what...certainly not results.

Peckham is a work in progress and he may become a reliable #5/6 dman but there is little to no evidence that he already is a "great defensive dman". Thats a fantasy.

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11-12-2011, 12:15 PM
  #106
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^^ In regards to this thread and Hall's hockey IQ. I'm really kinda surprised that some people believe Hall's hockey IQ is low at all. He may not have the same TYPE of hockey IQ as an RNH or Eberle type player, but I think that comes down to "style" rather than hockey IQ. Hall's "style" makes him look like a bull in a china shop. But Hall's knowledge of the game is becoming more apparent as he goes, especially with Ebs and RNH. I've seen a couple of beauty passes from Hall when I expected him to try the "plough through" method, take the last RNH goal as an example.

I know this has nothing to do with Hall falling all over the place, but I felt I had to share that thought. He'll learn to stay on 1 or 2 skates sooner rather than later. I believe Hall's balance was a point of concern last year for Renney in the Rookie camp as well. Old habits die hard.

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11-12-2011, 12:16 PM
  #107
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I'm worried he's going to be another Fred Sjostrom, high pick, great skater, no offensive flare.


uggghhh

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11-12-2011, 12:23 PM
  #108
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You keep saying this but are never able to back it up with anything.

Got any examples?
Everytime you ask I tell you, you're just in denial. Here are some general examples:

1) His refusal to do something else but take the puck wide on the rush, then shoot a low-percentage shot from near the goal-line.

2) His inability to realize that he's not going to plow through players - often resulting in a loss of possession along the boards.

3) Stupid attempts to do it all himself - like that suicide play to Marchand for the 6-3 goal vs Boston.

4) Ill-advised passes into no one when along the boards - often leading to opposition odd-man rushes.

He's starting to surprise me with some of his passing plays - I'll give him that. That set up to RNH and yesterday's pass to Lander were uncharacteristic plays from him - but excellent nonetheless. It's good he's realizing that he's not a bonafide sniper - and setting up higher-opportunity chances instead.

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11-12-2011, 12:38 PM
  #109
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I'm concerned about a few things that I'm seeing so far from Hall this year....mostly, he hasnt really wowed me at all yet...the way other young players in the NHL have wowed me this season (RNH and Seguin, to name two obvious examples).

But, I realize this is also a reflection of a hockey market that wants Hall, desperately needs Hall, to be something better than they've seen in the last 20 years. Hall was drafted as the best player in the 2010 draft - and almost everyone had an opinion on that. But, from the moment his name was called it carried with him an expectation, a desperate desire, a hope that this young player would be the beginning of the next wave of superstar talent for the Oilers.

Thats whats depressing me - that so far this season, those expectations that Taylor Hall would be a generational talent that would finally lead this franchise out of mediocrity have left me feeling cold and jilted. Because so far this season, he has been nothing more than ordinary. He cant be just ordinary. He just can't!

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11-12-2011, 12:42 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Freudian slips View Post
Thats whats depressing me - that so far this season, those expectations that Taylor Hall would be a generational talent that would finally lead this franchise out of mediocrity have left me feeling cold and jilted.
I don't think anyone should be expecting him to be a generational talent.

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11-12-2011, 12:43 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Everytime you ask I tell you, you're just in denial. Here are some general examples:

1) His refusal to do something else but take the puck wide on the rush, then shoot a low-percentage shot from near the goal-line.

2) His inability to realize that he's not going to plow through players - often resulting in a loss of possession along the boards.

3) Stupid attempts to do it all himself - like that suicide play to Marchand for the 6-3 goal vs Boston.

4) Ill-advised passes into no one when along the boards - often leading to opposition odd-man rushes.

He's starting to surprise me with some of his passing plays - I'll give him that. That set up to RNH and yesterday's pass to Lander were uncharacteristic plays from him - but excellent nonetheless. It's good he's realizing that he's not a bonafide sniper - and setting up higher-opportunity chances instead.
How about how he drew the Bruin defender to him before passing off to Hopkins, allowing him a high percentage shot from which he scored?

If he was a dumb as you say, he wouldve forced the play and took the shot himself, or barged in towards the net. Yet he didnt do that, because he recognized that Hopkins was busting hard back into the play and would be a trailer, so he enticed the dman over to him and dropped the puck back to Hopkins.

There are countless other examples of plays like this, from which you choose to ignore and focus on a few obvious mistakes such as the Marchand giveaway. Some how this is supposed to be proof that he is a stupid hockey player.

He is learning on the fly. He has been asserting himself physically with some pretty big hits already this year. If he is going wide that's probably because that is the best option for him at the time. Suggesting that he cut into the middle and criticizing him for not doing so as an example of poor hockey IQ is strange to say the least.

You want him to get killed? Or give turn the puck over? Because that is usually what happens when you do something risky like that instead of just getting the puck deep in the zone, which is the better and safer option.

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Old
11-12-2011, 12:45 PM
  #112
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I don't think anyone should be expecting him to be a generational talent.
they expect him to be something special...generational talent is perhaps overstated

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Old
11-12-2011, 12:54 PM
  #113
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He's a 1st overall pick - the minimum expectation is superstar. I don't think he'll reach that 40G, 90P plateau though.

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11-12-2011, 12:58 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
He's a 1st overall pick - the minimum expectation is superstar. I don't think he'll reach that 40G, 90P plateau though.
that sucks...I hope you're wrong...when I saw him play last year, right before he got hurt, I surely expected he would be pretty special...

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11-12-2011, 01:02 PM
  #115
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Doesn't this worry you a bit? The fact that our 1st overall goal-scoring winger isn't a sniper? I mean Ryan Smyth scores a lot of goals in that around-the-goalmouth style, but he's literally a "generational talent" in that regard. You only get 1-2 players like that every 15-20 years - someone that damn good in front of the net. Hall has no where near the skillset of a Smyth in front of the net. He's kind of average to be honest.

And "scoring off the rush" isn't typically something he does, because he literally can't finish unless it's a perfect setup from RNH/Eberle. He can't really shoot when skating at full speed.

He scored a few goals last year by virtue of literally intimidating goaltenders with his speed breaking in. They would back into their nets, and he'd take that opened up shooting angle to score (OT winner STL, goal vs Rinne). He needs to stop deking, he doesn't have the hands to make it work - and he's tried it repeatedly. If he sticks to using open ice rather than the boards, he could easily increase the quality of his shots.
yes, it worries me tremendously, but what can you do? hall isn't a kovi/heatley/semin type of goal scorer... his shot is nowhere near as hard, fast or accurate as those players... he'll have to score his goals in different ways then them - simple as that... although, to be fair, his shot will likely improve somewhat as he gets stronger

he'll never be smyth around the net, but like you said, neither are 99% of all other NHL players.... a guy like parise or kane is a guy you could compare to hall, in that neither has a killer shot and neither is gold around the net either... but they both seem to score 30-35 most years... hall will need to find other ways to score, simple as that... i don't know if he will or not, but its definitely possible

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11-12-2011, 01:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Freudian slips View Post
Thats whats depressing me - that so far this season, those expectations that Taylor Hall would be a generational talent that would finally lead this franchise out of mediocrity have left me feeling cold and jilted. Because so far this season, he has been nothing more than ordinary. He cant be just ordinary. He just can't!
you see, these expectations were completely unfair to hall... nobody ever said he was ANYWHERE CLOSE to a generational talent... many of us were telling anybody who would listen that he was an "average" 1st overall pick, and actually less impressive and skilled than most recent 1st overalls... i know i for one have been saying that hall is an "average 1st overall" for a long time now ... people just choose to ignore facts, because they desperately want him to be a savior

hall is not a generational talent, not even close... expecting this is not fair to the player

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11-12-2011, 01:06 PM
  #117
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He's a 1st overall pick - the minimum expectation is superstar. I don't think he'll reach that 40G, 90P plateau though.
He could produce less than that pace and still be a superstar. Look at what kind of point totals the "other" superstars are able to attain, consistently. 40Gs & 90 points is NOT the barometer.

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11-12-2011, 01:07 PM
  #118
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This thread really comes across as a "Chicken Little: The Sky is Falling" Thread.

To put things in perspective, Hall hasn't even played 82 games in his career yet.

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11-12-2011, 01:09 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
He's a 1st overall pick - the minimum expectation is superstar. I don't think he'll reach that 40G, 90P plateau though.
the sad thing is, is that LOTS of people would view stats such as those as a *failure*... those are his high-water marks, stats he'll very likely never achieve

as i've said a few times now, people really need to lower their expectations with hall... just be glad we have him, he's a hell of a player... i'll take a guy who scores 30g/30a, plays with heart and energy, makes the odd big hit and does whatever it takes to win any day of the week... hall is going to be a great player, but expecting to him to win the rocket richard or art ross trophy is crazy

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11-12-2011, 01:11 PM
  #120
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He reminds me of Anderson so much when he plays.

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11-12-2011, 01:16 PM
  #121
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you see, these expectations were completely unfair to hall... nobody ever said he was ANYWHERE CLOSE to a generational talent... many of us were telling anybody who would listen that he was an "average" 1st overall pick, and actually less impressive and skilled than most recent 1st overalls... i know i for one have been saying that hall is an "average 1st overall" for a long time now ... people just choose to ignore facts, because they desperately want him to be a savior

hall is not a generational talent, not even close... expecting this is not fair to the player
as I said, generational talent is overstated.

It was our first ever first-overall draft pick and we've been wandering in the desert for 20 years as a franchise...so there was bound to be a lot of hype, hope and high expectations. Of course, much of it was/is over the top. Maybe thats not fair to Hall, for him to be a savior, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'average 1st overall'...what facts are you alluding to?

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11-12-2011, 01:17 PM
  #122
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the sad thing is, is that LOTS of people would view stats such as those as a *failure*... those are his high-water marks, stats he'll very likely never achieve

as i've said a few times now, people really need to lower their expectations with hall... just be glad we have him, he's a hell of a player... i'll take a guy who scores 30g/30a, plays with heart and energy, makes the odd big hit and does whatever it takes to win any day of the week... hall is going to be a great player, but expecting to him to win the rocket richard or art ross trophy is crazy
I agree with most of this. I was just hoping he'd be way better than 30/30

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11-12-2011, 01:23 PM
  #123
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Cam Barker says, thanks Hallsy! I was sure the fans were only going to focus on my "****" play lately. Whew

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11-12-2011, 01:26 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Freudian slips View Post
as I said, generational talent is overstated.

It was our first ever first-overall draft pick and we've been wandering in the desert for 20 years as a franchise...so there was bound to be a lot of hype, hope and high expectations. Of course, much of it was/is over the top. Maybe thats not fair to Hall, for him to be a savior, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'average 1st overall'...what facts are you alluding to?
i did a thread a long time ago that looked at what you could expect from a top-3 drafted CHL forward over the past 10 or so years.... looking at junior scoring rates... hall was in the exact middle of these players

just by looking at 1st overall picks that were forwards since 2000, you can see that hall is very much an "average" 1st overall pick, if that (PPG shown is 1st year in the NHL)

ovechkin - 1.31
crosby - 1.26
kane - 0.89
kovalchuk - 0.78
tavares - 0.66
hall - 0.65
stamkos - 0.58
nash - 0.53

when you combine the above stats, this years early struggles and his junior point production, it becomes pretty obvious that he is an average 1st overall pick... could he become stamkos? a player who actually posted worse junior and 1st year numbers than hall did, but then exploded into one of the best scorers in the league? sure i guess, but every game this season where he continues to play the way he is makes that less and less likely of a scenario... remember, stamkos dominated in his 2nd season

so yeah, i've looked at the numbers, and they aren't flattering to hall


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Old
11-12-2011, 01:32 PM
  #125
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i did a thread a long time ago that looked at what you could expect from a top-3 drafted CHL forward over the past 10 or so years.... looking at junior scoring rates... hall was in the exact middle of these players

just by looking at 1st overall picks that were forwards since 2000, you can see that hall is very much an "average" 1st overall pick, if that (PPG shown is 1st year in the NHL)

ovechkin - 1.31
crosby - 1.26
nash - 1
kane - 0.89
kovalchuk - 0.87
tavares - 0.66
hall - 0.65
stamkos - 0.58

when you combine the above stats, this years early struggles and his junior point production, it becomes pretty obvious that he is an average 1st overall pick... could be become stamkos? a player who actually posted worse junior and 1st year numbers, but then exploded into one of the best scorers in the league? sure i guess, but every game this season where he continues to play the way is he makes that a less and less likely scenario... remember, stamkos dominated in his 2nd season

so yeah, i've looked at the numbers, and they aren't flattering to hall
Not trying to challenge you, but I'd take Crosby and Ovie out of the comparison as they indeed are generational talents - likely skewing what 'average' would look like.

My opinion: without doing any of the work you have done (I tip my hat) I suspect a lot of guys who become 'special' do indeed outproduce their junior numbers. I'd be curious to see a wider list that includes top ten draftees and see where Skinner and Seguin are overall.

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