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Rick Middleton or Rod Brind'Amour?

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Old
11-15-2011, 02:42 PM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Another thing to take into consideration here. BrindAmour did not register a 1st or 2nd all-star selection at center.
Yeah, well neither did Middleton.

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11-15-2011, 02:59 PM
  #27
Padan
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
In 2006 they win the Cup. Staal is clearly their best player. Ward wins the Conn Smythe. Staal finishes 4th in Hart voting.
Staal's 2006 playoffs has gotten incredibly overrated IMO, since people are just looking at his numbers. He put up points yes, but watching him play that spring I have to say that he didn't shine much at all, especially not in the Cup finals. Brind'Amour was their heart and soul among skaters, lead the team in goals (12) and received much tougher defensive assignments than Staal.

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11-15-2011, 04:01 PM
  #28
Dennis Bonvie
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Can I assume everyone that is picking Brind'Amour never saw Middleton play?

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11-15-2011, 06:20 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Can I assume everyone that is picking Brind'Amour never saw Middleton play?
I've just assumed that is the answer

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Yeah, well neither did Middleton.
Middleton was a right winger and I know you know this. Besides, would there be a player that was never, not even once considered to be among the top 10 at his position get into the HHOF? Or, better question, SHOULD that happen?

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Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Staal's 2006 playoffs has gotten incredibly overrated IMO, since people are just looking at his numbers. He put up points yes, but watching him play that spring I have to say that he didn't shine much at all, especially not in the Cup finals. Brind'Amour was their heart and soul among skaters, lead the team in goals (12) and received much tougher defensive assignments than Staal.
BrindAmour got 4 game winning goals and you can thank him for that. He did play very well. Staal is the reason they got out of the Montreal series I think with his overtime winner in Game 3.

Staal (28 points in total)
vs. Montreal - 8 points in 6 games
New Jersey - 7 points in 5 games
Buffalo - 5 points in 7 games
Edmonton - 8 points in 7 games

BrindAmour (18 points in total)
vs. Montreal - 6 points in 6 games
New Jersey - 5 points in 5 games
Buffalo - 4 points in 5 games
Edmonton - 3 points in 7 games

On the surface, Staal looks to be the winner and when you distribute it per series it definitely favours Staal. I'll also take into account the gritty leadership and faceoff ability and defensive play along with some clutch goals in BrindAmour's favour. You know what? I still like Staal's playoffs better. BrindAmour is 3rd on the 2006 Canes in the playoffs behind Ward as well in my opinion. I don't think Staal's 2006 postseason gets overblown at all, he was the best Cane forward from my eyes as well.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Those "blip years" they won their division and then won 3-4 playoff series... that seems "very good" in my book. We're not talking about 8th seed Cinderella stories here, those were well-constructed hockey teams that got dismantled in the following offseason.
We all know how easy that division was to win. Until Washington finally picked it up in 2008 or 2009 that was the easiest division in hockey.


Quote:
You ask any Hurricanes fan who they would consider the most important player in the history of the franchise, you know what the answer will be.
Well if you want to take that franchise as a whole and include Hartford the answer is Francis. If you want to solely isolate it to Carolina and fine, the answer is BrindAmour.........for now. Is that a compliment though? I mean, SHOULDN'T he be the most important guy on that franchise all-time? He doesn't have any competition. And the ones that are close are all young and will end up surpassing him (Ward, Staal, maybe Skinner). I'm not sure I would even bother bringing that up. Middleton is easily as loved in Boston, in fact probably much more and these were far better teams. But that still means squat and I'm in the Middleton camp

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11-16-2011, 12:10 PM
  #30
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Middleton was a right winger and I know you know this. Besides, would there be a player that was never, not even once considered to be among the top 10 at his position get into the HHOF? Or, better question, SHOULD that happen?
Hang on, is that what we're talking about here? I haven't been making that argument at all...


Quote:
We all know how easy that division was to win. Until Washington finally picked it up in 2008 or 2009 that was the easiest division in hockey.
That doesn't discredit the fact that they rolled through the regular season and then the playoffs.

Besides, in 2006 the Hurricanes went 18-11-3 (.601) against the SE and 34-11-5 (.730) against everyone else. Something like that may have been the case in 2002 but NHL.com doesn't have the numbers.


Quote:
Well if you want to take that franchise as a whole and include Hartford the answer is Francis.
Fair point, though I could make myself feel dirty and argue that Francis racked up a bunch of regular-season points and not much else until he left Hartford. Kind of a Marcel Dionne story during his time there. Brind'Amour actually led the organization to tangible success. There's something to be said for that as well.

Quote:
If you want to solely isolate it to Carolina and fine, the answer is BrindAmour.........for now. Is that a compliment though? I mean, SHOULDN'T he be the most important guy on that franchise all-time? He doesn't have any competition. And the ones that are close are all young and will end up surpassing him (Ward, Staal, maybe Skinner). I'm not sure I would even bother bringing that up.
I wouldn't be quite so fast to project that into the future. Those guys all seem like Carolina lifers at the moment, but such things can change pretty quickly. There are active conversations on the Canes board about how much Staal would fetch in a trade, and neither Ward nor Skinner has accomplished enough at this point to be worthy of number retirement or anything like that.

For the time being, Brind'Amour is the face of the Carolina franchise (which is now only 4 years shy of matching the Whalers' lifespan). That is a pretty significant statement about his value as a leader and central figure of a hockey team. It's not like he was a role player hanging in Staal and Ward's shadow, the guy was front and center to this organization for a number of years.

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Middleton is easily as loved in Boston, in fact probably much more and these were far better teams. But that still means squat and I'm in the Middleton camp
Like I said way back, I'm not necessarily rating Brind'Amour over Middleton. I just think his contributions are being glossed over as part of the pro-Middleton argument.

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Old
11-16-2011, 02:32 PM
  #31
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That doesn't discredit the fact that they rolled through the regular season and then the playoffs.

Besides, in 2006 the Hurricanes went 18-11-3 (.601) against the SE and 34-11-5 (.730) against everyone else. Something like that may have been the case in 2002 but NHL.com doesn't have the numbers.
I mean, the Hurricanes as a whole barely made the playoffs in the 2000s. How did they roll through anything?

Quote:
Fair point, though I could make myself feel dirty and argue that Francis racked up a bunch of regular-season points and not much else until he left Hartford. Kind of a Marcel Dionne story during his time there. Brind'Amour actually led the organization to tangible success. There's something to be said for that as well.
I don't think the Francis thing is neither here nor there. His first 10 seasons were in Hartford and he stood out on a bad team better than BrindAmour did on a mediocre team. But ask yourself this question, did BrindAmour really LEAD the Canes? Yes he was the "leader" and captain but could he be your best player on a Cup winner? The answer to me is a clear "no". I distributed the series by series events between Staal and Brindy in 2006. Staal was very consistent, BrindAmour was not all the time. I get how people liked BrindAmour's 2006 playoffs but Staal's was just simply better. They don't win the Cup without Staal.

Quote:
Like I said way back, I'm not necessarily rating Brind'Amour over Middleton. I just think his contributions are being glossed over as part of the pro-Middleton argument.
But he falls into the category of being "very good". Then he was "good" for a period of time. Then he captained a Cup winner near the end of his career. This is how these things start. Next thing you know we'll have another Joe Nieuwendyk on our hands. Middleton at least had a couple elite seasons better than anything BrindAmour did.

Bottom line is this, the most important thing when judging a player's worth is whether or not he would open up the door to others. Now, Nieuwendyk already did that, but try to think about that. Just isolate BrindAmour. In my honest opinion he would set off a can of worms.

Not so with Middleton. If he were inducted how would that lower the bar? What forwards would rightly be able to scream bloody murder that aren't in yet?

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