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Old
11-13-2011, 07:07 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Staal's going to play with Geno whether this board likes it or not. Just a matter of for how many minutes, against what team and under what injury situation.
It'll happen like Crosby-Malkin will happen...it's a situational ploy. A card the coach can play.

It's not a permanent anything. Staal's still a center. Malkin's still a center. It only takes one per line.

Nobody is saying we'll never see it. But to start games? To practice together? There's no point anymore. We have wingers.

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11-13-2011, 07:12 PM
  #52
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Geno hasn't been very good at his centering duties thus far this season.

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11-13-2011, 07:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Geno hasn't been very good at his centering duties thus far this season.
Glad someone else said it. He was better last game on the backcheck but I still think he has a ways to go to get back to where he was a couple years ago.

Fun fact. Geno is a shade over 41% on f/o's for the year with one game over 50%. Staal is right at 50% for the year with 9 of his 15 games being over 50%.

If Neal is going up to Sid's line then I'd like them to try Staalkin for awhile, see how it goes. Try out a Cooke-Vitale-Dupuis third line.

Just my opinion.

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11-13-2011, 07:34 PM
  #54
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Anyone else noticed what a beast Dupuis is on Face offs? seems like every time he has to take one he wins it clean.

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11-13-2011, 07:41 PM
  #55
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It's pretty funny that it's common he's 100% whenever he needs to take a few in a game.

Too bad he's not a great linemate for Geno. Having a capable f/o man on his wing could allow him to cheat a bit more and not worry as much if he's thrown out.

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11-13-2011, 08:10 PM
  #56
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Let's not forget:

Neal is a RW on this team, and Staal played his best (offensively) as a LW with Malkin during his rookie year. So if this line were to happen, it would be: Staal--Malkin--Neal (with Staal taking face-offs, as needed).

But I think when Kennedy returns, we can assemble a 3rd line that features the Cooke--Staal--Kennedy trio and should provide the balanced scoring we need and help boost Staal's productivity.

Until such time as Jeffrey shows he is ready to centre the 3rd line on a regular basis, those would be my line combos.

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Old
11-13-2011, 08:46 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Let's not forget:

Neal is a RW on this team, and Staal played his best (offensively) as a LW with Malkin during his rookie year. So if this line were to happen, it would be: Staal--Malkin--Neal (with Staal taking face-offs, as needed).

But I think when Kennedy returns, we can assemble a 3rd line that features the Cooke--Staal--Kennedy trio and should provide the balanced scoring we need and help boost Staal's productivity.

Until such time as Jeffrey shows he is ready to centre the 3rd line on a regular basis, those would be my line combos.
Staalkin will be what it will be. They seem to have their own chemistry and play their games. Still say Staal is going to be the unofficial center defensively even if he's penciled on the LW.

But I agree that Cooke-Staal-Kennedy could still allow for Staal to put up some serious numbers. Cooke is playing his best hockey and has shown some serious playmaking ability. Let alone TK becoming a dangerous shooter with a bit more patience to his game.

I just want a healthy lineup to start putting up 4 goals/game with regularity.

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Old
11-13-2011, 10:12 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Staal's going to play with Geno whether this board likes it or not. Just a matter of for how many minutes

This is pretty much true of any two forwards you name on the team. They all play together at one time or another, other than Staal and Crosby maybe or other oddball combinations. If they do it two or three shifts every other game, that's not exactly vindication that it's "the way to go" or that the coaches prefer it.

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11-13-2011, 10:16 PM
  #59
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If it gets 3-4 shifts a game, and it works every single time...that's a whole bunch of vindication.

The beauty would also be that the 2nd line is wrapped up, and there's a ton more money to use on a RW'er for Sid in free agency.

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11-13-2011, 10:47 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ChiChi Vitale View Post
This is pretty much true of any two forwards you name on the team. They all play together at one time or another, other than Staal and Crosby maybe or other oddball combinations. If they do it two or three shifts every other game, that's not exactly vindication that it's "the way to go" or that the coaches prefer it.
Don't understand how people can look at Staal's game this year and not at least be intrigued by what loading our top 6 could yield.

They went to Neal/Staal/Malkin for several shifts in the third when Sully was out without Sid. What do you think DB is going to do when we have another line centered by the best player in the world.

I hope he tries it at least a handful of shifts a game. Once we have a decent lead, you roll the 3C model.

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11-14-2011, 05:40 PM
  #61
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Why?

Can you think of a top 9 better than the following?

Kunitz- Crosby - Dupuis
Neal - Malkin - Sullivan
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy


Those are three balanced lines that when healthy will give every team in the league trouble.

Why does everyone want to try to stack one of those lines by either putting Staal on the 2nd or Neal on the 1st?

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Old
11-14-2011, 06:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by KneelbeforeNeal View Post
Why?

Can you think of a top 9 better than the following?

Kunitz- Crosby - Dupuis
Neal - Malkin - Sullivan
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy


Those are three balanced lines that when healthy will give every team in the league trouble.

Why does everyone want to try to stack one of those lines by either putting Staal on the 2nd or Neal on the 1st?
Why?

1. If you want Jordan Staal to produce like a top 6 player, he needs to be put in top 6 positions. He has probably 7-10 goals of growth left in him, and he will only realize that if playing with top 6 players who have skill. Grinders are not going to get that out of him. Getting 7-10 goals more out of him would be like a bonus. Free production. We aren't paying for it.

2. If Staal were in the top 6, that'd leave us 1 top 6 winger position to fill next offseason and we could spend some serious money on it.

3. It's much easier, and much more cost effective to find a 3rd line center than a top 6 winger.

4. Geno has been lazy defensively and he still sucks at faceoffs. My theory of the system supporting him better as a winger have also appeared to be true. I think he'd see more pucks with speed, in space, if he were a winger.

5. There really isn't a huge need for a "shutdown" line. I'd match our fire against any other team's fire any day of the week. I actually see us matching top 6's with other teams as an advantage because of the personnel we have an how we play. You get Sid's line out there, and they get to our game, get down low and cycle...they are both creating offense and shutting down the other team's top line. The other team can't score if they can't get the puck.

6. If we need to shutdown a 1 line team, we can very easily move Staal to the 3rd line if we have to, or if we're in a game, and we're trying to protect a lead, you can again move Staal to the 3rd line and just roll 4 lines to protect the lead. Having Staal as a 2nd liner doesn't mean he is no long a shutdown center. Kesler, Datsyuk, Richards, and a slew of other awesome defensive centers are also top 6'ers.


I feel like Ron Paul. A majority doesn't understand, or is scared by what I'm saying, and everyone thinks I'm crazy except for the core supporters.

I really didn't want to wage in this again. I just cannot stay away.

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11-14-2011, 06:39 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Why?

1. If you want Jordan Staal to produce like a top 6 player, he needs to be put in top 6 positions. He has probably 7-10 goals of growth left in him, and he will only realize that if playing with top 6 players who have skill. Grinders are not going to get that out of him. Getting 7-10 goals more out of him would be like a bonus. Free production. We aren't paying for it.

2. If Staal were in the top 6, that'd leave us 1 top 6 winger position to fill next offseason and we could spend some serious money on it.

3. It's much easier, and much more cost effective to find a 3rd line center than a top 6 winger.

4. Geno has been lazy defensively and he still sucks at faceoffs. My theory of the system supporting him better as a winger have also appeared to be true. I think he'd see more pucks with speed, in space, if he were a winger.

5. There really isn't a huge need for a "shutdown" line. I'd match our fire against any other team's fire any day of the week. I actually see us matching top 6's with other teams as an advantage because of the personnel we have an how we play. You get Sid's line out there, and they get to our game, get down low and cycle...they are both creating offense and shutting down the other team's top line. The other team can't score if they can't get the puck.

6. If we need to shutdown a 1 line team, we can very easily move Staal to the 3rd line if we have to, or if we're in a game, and we're trying to protect a lead, you can again move Staal to the 3rd line and just roll 4 lines to protect the lead. Having Staal as a 2nd liner doesn't mean he is no long a shutdown center. Kesler, Datsyuk, Richards, and a slew of other awesome defensive centers are also top 6'ers.


I feel like Ron Paul. A majority doesn't understand, or is scared by what I'm saying, and everyone thinks I'm crazy except for the core supporters.

I really didn't want to wage in this again. I just cannot stay away.

Lol. Yeah I agree.

When we're looking for a winger at the deadline, find someone who can play a top 6 role but also can move down to 3C when Staal moves up. Plenty of teams in this league are loaded with those types of players and are going to be moved if they're out of the playoff race at the deadline.

No one's saying we can't run the 3C model. I'm fine with that when we're holding a healthy lead. But I just don't understand how anyone can not at least want to see what this team can do offensively when stacking the top 6.

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Old
11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Geno hasn't been very good at his centering duties thus far this season.
And if you believe that will continue all season, especially after 71 slides in between 87 and 11, well then you have every right to believe that. Clearly, you don't think very highly of Geno if that's the case, but you're certainly within your right to believe that.

Let's re-state the obvious. WHEN Crosby returns, we'll have the best No. 1, the best No. 2 and the best No. 3 centers in the NHL. AND, on top of that, we have enough wingers for everyone now.

Why is this still an issue, again?

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Old
11-14-2011, 07:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
And if you believe that will continue all season, especially after 71 slides in between 87 and 11, well then you have every right to believe that. Clearly, you don't think very highly of Geno if that's the case, but you're certainly within your right to believe that.

Let's re-state the obvious. WHEN Crosby returns, we'll have the best No. 1, the best No. 2 and the best No. 3 centers in the NHL. AND, on top of that, we have enough wingers for everyone now.

Why is this still an issue, again?
Because it's not hard to find a 3rd line center, and the one we currently have has a lot more to give offensively if put in the right position to do so (like he is right now), for starters.

You are also the one around here who wants the high priced winger. Moving Staal with Geno would free a ton of money up to do so.

And I do think highly of Geno. I know what he's good at though, and the defensive side of things he's incredibly inconsistent, and he's not going to get better at faceoffs, I don't believe.

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Old
11-14-2011, 07:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I feel like Ron Paul. A majority doesn't understand, or is scared by what I'm saying, and everyone thinks I'm crazy except for the core supporters.


edit: wait, i thought i remember reading these staalkin threads werent allowed anymore.

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11-14-2011, 09:18 PM
  #67
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I've been a Staalkin fan since it was proposed last summer. IMO, Malkin, who is so inconstant defensively anyway, would be best served if he didn't have to worry about D or faceoffs as much and could just concentrate on offense.

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11-14-2011, 09:26 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I've been a Staalkin fan since it was proposed last summer. IMO, Malkin, who is so inconstant defensively anyway, would be best served if he didn't have to worry about D or faceoffs as much and could just concentrate on offense.
That could be true, but imo the more responsibility Malkin gets, the better he is. He was at his best offensively when he controlled all three zones on the ice. He was a takeaway specialist in the defensive zone, and hounded guys and picked off passes in the neutral zone. All of that work turned into an explosive game in the offensive zone.

I think the last thing you want Malkin to do is to float while waiting for a breakout pass. I don't want him to turn into a Semin, as incredible as he is offensively, he's awful in the other zones.

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Old
11-14-2011, 09:39 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
That could be true, but imo the more responsibility Malkin gets, the better he is. He was at his best offensively when he controlled all three zones on the ice. He was a takeaway specialist in the defensive zone, and hounded guys and picked off passes in the neutral zone. All of that work turned into an explosive game in the offensive zone.

I think the last thing you want Malkin to do is to float while waiting for a breakout pass. I don't want him to turn into a Semin, as incredible as he is offensively, he's awful in the other zones.
He wasn't a takeaway specialist in the defensive zone. He was a take away specialist all over the ice. He'd still get his takeaways backchecking and forcing defensemen in their own zone.

He will still hound guys and pick off passes. Instead of the neutral zone it will be deeper in the offensive zone.

He will have an explosive game due to the game plan and who the defensemen are. Last time Geno played wing was when he won the Conn Smyth. The system supports him as a winger, and we have the blue line to get him the puck in space with speed.

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Old
11-14-2011, 10:31 PM
  #70
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Not every C has to be great at defense. Malkin has not developed into that Selke-type guy that Dave King envisioned when he was coaching him in Russia. But maybe that's a good thing. Too much time spent on that element of his game may have stunted his offensive game. And offense is and will always be his bread and butter.

There's NOTHING wrong with having an all-offensive, all-out stud offensive center. Those are still valuable even in this systematic, robotic NHL. ESPECIALLY when your third-line C is a perennial Selke candidate and your No. 1 does everything well.

Besides, why on Earth would we break up this roster to look for a third-line C now? It doesn't make any sense. Can we please see what we have when Crosby comes back before we declare that we need to move Malkin to wing, please? Crosby and James Neal have yet to skate on the same ice for the same team, alright. How in the world are we supposed to conclude that we need to shift Malkin to wing? C'mon.

The guy everybody wanted to be the 3C in order to use "Staalkin" is now in Columbus. Traded for a fourth rounder. And they're using him some on the wing. LOL.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis/Kennedy
Sullivan-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy/Dupuis

Can we see this for a game before moving Geno to wing por favor???

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11-14-2011, 10:35 PM
  #71
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And one last point, since everybody loves statistics, who is among the leading goal-scorers in the NHL so far this season? Winger James Neal. Who is his CENTER? Evgeni Malkin.

He's doing his job. Maybe not to the liking of some, but he's doing his job.

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Old
11-15-2011, 09:39 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Not every C has to be great at defense. Malkin has not developed into that Selke-type guy that Dave King envisioned when he was coaching him in Russia. But maybe that's a good thing. Too much time spent on that element of his game may have stunted his offensive game. And offense is and will always be his bread and butter.

There's NOTHING wrong with having an all-offensive, all-out stud offensive center. Those are still valuable even in this systematic, robotic NHL. ESPECIALLY when your third-line C is a perennial Selke candidate and your No. 1 does everything well.

Besides, why on Earth would we break up this roster to look for a third-line C now? It doesn't make any sense. Can we please see what we have when Crosby comes back before we declare that we need to move Malkin to wing, please? Crosby and James Neal have yet to skate on the same ice for the same team, alright. How in the world are we supposed to conclude that we need to shift Malkin to wing? C'mon.

The guy everybody wanted to be the 3C in order to use "Staalkin" is now in Columbus. Traded for a fourth rounder. And they're using him some on the wing. LOL.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis/Kennedy
Sullivan-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Staal-Kennedy/Dupuis

Can we see this for a game before moving Geno to wing por favor???
1. Malkin most assuredly did not become the player I thought he'd be. Perhaps the most appropriate description early on was Pierre McGuire's 'Ron Francis on steroids'. People forget that was Malkin's rep coming out of Russia . . . excellent two way forward who played the PK quite a bit, was a great set up man, and had a good shot. If memory serves, he was projected to be a 90-100 point player if things panned out perfectly. For all the things that Michel Therrien rightfully is bashed for, the one thing he got right was Malkin's development. By the time he was fired, Malkin actually was 'Ron Francis on steroids', but the added benefit was that he was more of a goal scorer than most scouts envisioned.

2. This thread is the single dumbest thing I've seen since the last Staalkin thread, and on both sides frankly. Hockey is about matchups. As a general rule, the Pens three center model represents a matchup nightmare for the opposition. At the same time, there are times, like the third period of Carolina, where the matchup (a small defense in lay back mode) and the situation dictate stacking lines. Personally, I liked what Dan Bylsma went into the season saying he intended to do, which was to run the true three center model but to put two or three of the centers together as matchups and circumstances dictate. And, by the way, Malkin didn't spend the entire third period playing wing. If you look at the shift tracker, I'm guessing he spent maybe 50-60% of his shifts on Staal's wing. Frankly, if that's how Bylsma wants to use Malkin, as a roving roster player, sometimes as center and sometimes at wing (with the 'how much where' question dictated by matchups and the goal being to get Malkin on the ice 21+ minutes a night), then I'm all for THAT scenario . . . it's basically how Babcock uses Datsyuk.

3. If the Pens goal is to make Malkin into Staal's full time winger, then the may as well trade him. We can debate whether Malkin is a 8.7M per year center in this system, but he's simply not a 8.7M per year full time winger in this system. What you could get for him would be a far better suited for the Pens system than just keeping Malkin and playing him full time at wing.

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11-15-2011, 09:45 AM
  #73
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Let's not forget:

Neal is a RW on this team, and Staal played his best (offensively) as a LW with Malkin during his rookie year. So if this line were to happen, it would be: Staal--Malkin--Neal (with Staal taking face-offs, as needed).

But I think when Kennedy returns, we can assemble a 3rd line that features the Cooke--Staal--Kennedy trio and should provide the balanced scoring we need and help boost Staal's productivity.

Until such time as Jeffrey shows he is ready to centre the 3rd line on a regular basis, those would be my line combos.
Make no mistake, if a stacked second line happens, it will be Sullivan-Staal-Malkin (you'll have a line like that because it WILL be Sid with both Kunitz AND Neal).

Here's another question: Do you put Sullivan, Kennedy, or Dupuis on the fourth line? Under that scenario, you need Park as you're third line center, so you've got to bump a guy from your projected top 9.

My only concern is the projected Sullivan-Malkin-Kennedy line. That one, I fear, will not be pretty. At that point, Bylsma will flip Dupuis (from a line with Staal and Cooke) and Kennedy, and you'll get Sullivan-Malkin-Dupuis within short order.

I hate to say it, but this team is ONE deal up front from being in really, really great position. Let's say the staff goes with Kunitz-Crosby-Neal. Let's say the third line is Cooke-Staal-Dupuis. Keep Sullivan with Malkin and then package TK and prospects/picks/Jeffrey to get a winger who complements Malkin and Sullivan.

The alternative, of course, is keep the Malkin line, stay with Cooke-Staal-TK, and then play Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis until Ray Shero can make a move to upgrade that position.

Either way, Ray Shero is ONE move up front from putting together one of the most frightening top nines, one that can run the three center model without flaw and then also use it's big three like TB uses it's big three.

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Old
11-15-2011, 09:49 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
That could be true, but imo the more responsibility Malkin gets, the better he is. He was at his best offensively when he controlled all three zones on the ice. He was a takeaway specialist in the defensive zone, and hounded guys and picked off passes in the neutral zone. All of that work turned into an explosive game in the offensive zone.

I think the last thing you want Malkin to do is to float while waiting for a breakout pass. I don't want him to turn into a Semin, as incredible as he is offensively, he's awful in the other zones.
I hate to say it, but that was Therrien's system. That was predicated on more of a neutral zone trap, which played to Malkin's defensive strength (his anticipation). With Bylsma's system, that strength is hit or miss. Sometimes, it hits, and Malkin looks like a beast defensively. Sometimes, he anticipates wrong, and he looks hopelessly out of position.

Side note: I appreciate that people sometimes cite generic things Malkin is doing out there that supposedly suggest that he is being lazy or playing poorly defensively. By the same token, I am dumbfounded how rarely, if at all, people will cite a specific instance, even in a +/- thread posted after the game. It makes me wonder if it's a critique of his style of play more than how he actually played (I wouldn't be surprised to get a few generic replies on that one citing nothing specific).

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11-15-2011, 09:52 AM
  #75
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Because it's not hard to find a 3rd line center, and the one we currently have has a lot more to give offensively if put in the right position to do so (like he is right now), for starters.

You are also the one around here who wants the high priced winger. Moving Staal with Geno would free a ton of money up to do so.

And I do think highly of Geno. I know what he's good at though, and the defensive side of things he's incredibly inconsistent, and he's not going to get better at faceoffs, I don't believe.
No, it's not hard to find a third line center. And, if Bylsma used his forwards like say the Ducks use theirs, where it's less a case of rolling four lines than a case of riding their big three up front, then the drop off from Staal to say Park would not be so pronounced. BUT, I come from the camp that says there really shouldn't be more than a half dozen even strength shifts a game where at least one of Sid, Geno, or Staal is NOT on the ice.

By the way, that's how the Pens played the third against the Canes. The bottom 4-5 forwards barely sniffed the ice even strength, so the Pens were playing their top 6 where Malkin played both C and W rather than rolling four lines.

EDIT: Ron Paul?


Last edited by KIRK: 11-15-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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