HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Your team's "goaltenders of the future" who didn't pan out

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-06-2011, 02:13 PM
  #101
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,143
vCash: 500
You arent wrong about any of this. But you are straying from the spirit of the thread. Did Dipietro become a legitimate, top-half starting goalie? Yes he did. That is all anyone expects from their "goalie of the future" - you hope he becomes a legit starter. That he was drafted 1st overall in a boneheaded series of moves, and that he didnt become a "superstar" are irrelevant to that.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
  #102
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You arent wrong about any of this. But you are straying from the spirit of the thread. Did Dipietro become a legitimate, top-half starting goalie? Yes he did. That is all anyone expects from their "goalie of the future" - you hope he becomes a legit starter. That he was drafted 1st overall in a boneheaded series of moves, and that he didnt become a "superstar" are irrelevant to that.
I disagree. Expectations are relative.

There have been numerous goalies of the future listed in this thread that were either low-round draft selections or picked up off the free agent pile, traded for, etc. As a result of that initial start less was expected of them. The amount of investment that goes into a utilizing a first overall pick on a specific goaltender naturally engenders equivalent expectations about what level of return on the initial investment should be expected in order for the transaction to be a success. So you cannot simply state that because DiPietro became an NHL starting goaltender, and a very good one for one season, he was a successful draft pick.

Because he simply wasn't. He was expected to become a franchise-level goaltender and has fallen far below that for the majority of his career.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 02:52 PM
  #103
ephmrl
#tanknation
 
ephmrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,986
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to ephmrl Send a message via Skype™ to ephmrl
Corey Hirsch.

ephmrl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 02:58 PM
  #104
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,464
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
He was expected to become a franchise-level goaltender and has fallen far below that for the majority of his career.
I think you have to keep in mind who it was that had those expectations.

ie. Mad Mike Milbury.

Not to mention the environment surrounding the Isles the last couple decades hasn't been so hot in general. Thriving in a situation like that is going to be the exception rather than the rule for sure.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2011, 07:31 PM
  #105
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 14,194
vCash: 500
The funny thing about Canucks fans naming Corey Hirsch is that he was already a "bust" with the Rangers when the Canucks acquired him for Nathan Lafayette.

For the Rangers:
Corey Hirsch
Dan Blackburn
Al Montoya

Ironically, two of those guys were probably ruined by the Rangers having a fantastic starter already, so more bad timing than anything having to do with them, and the other had his career destroyed by a freak injury.

Tawnos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 01:04 AM
  #106
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,143
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
So you cannot simply state that because DiPietro becmika ame an NHL starting goaltender, and a very good one for one season, he was a successful draft pick.
You should know I wouldn't be stupid enough to think he was a successful draft pick. He has been a train wreck of a first overall pick, by any measure. But you are still overthinking this.

Jamie storr, robb stauber, mika noronen, corey hirsch... all good examples of goalies who showed some promise and were considered their team's "goalie of the future". Since they never became the "goalie of the present", they didn't pan out. Dipietro, in two seasons, achieved more than they ever did.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 02:11 AM
  #107
IllinoisRedWingsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 46
vCash: 500
Here's one for us Detroit fans Thomas McCollum.

IllinoisRedWingsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 10:52 AM
  #108
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You should know I wouldn't be stupid enough to think he was a successful draft pick. He has been a train wreck of a first overall pick, by any measure. But you are still overthinking this.

Jamie storr, robb stauber, mika noronen, corey hirsch... all good examples of goalies who showed some promise and were considered their team's "goalie of the future". Since they never became the "goalie of the present", they didn't pan out. Dipietro, in two seasons, achieved more than they ever did.
Still failed as New York's goalie of the future. Two decent seasons (2004 and 2007) out of an expected fifteen or more? Failure.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 01:29 PM
  #109
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Still failed as New York's goalie of the future. Two decent seasons (2004 and 2007) out of an expected fifteen or more? Failure.
How many goaltenders in each generation have been starters for 15 straight years? When you consider that players like Belfour, Giguere, Fuhr, have all lost their starting jobs for periods in the middle of their careers, players like Brodeur start to look pretty rare. Draft picks do need to be evaluated based on expectations, but I don't think it's fair to do that when the expectations are ridiculous and unreasonable.

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 01:37 PM
  #110
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
How many goaltenders in each generation have been starters for 15 straight years? When you consider that players like Belfour, Giguere, Fuhr, have all lost their starting jobs for periods in the middle of their careers, players like Brodeur start to look pretty rare. Draft picks do need to be evaluated based on expectations, but I don't think it's fair to do that when the expectations are ridiculous and unreasonable.
I always felt that DiPietro was overrated but I hardly think expecting him to be a competent NHL starter (and even star based on his draft position) was ever "ridiculous" or "unreasonable." Two good seasons does not an expected high-impact career make.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 01:42 PM
  #111
gifted88
Dante the poet
 
gifted88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,379
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IllinoisRedWingsFan View Post
Here's one for us Detroit fans Thomas McCollum.
I still have faith he'll turn it around

gifted88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 01:48 PM
  #112
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Would that have anything to do with being from Guelph?

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 02:24 PM
  #113
Malefic74
Registered User
 
Malefic74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halfway between Nothing and Not Much Else
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,758
vCash: 500
Habs goalies have already been covered quite well, so let's take a look at the Edmonton Oilers shall we?

Darryl Reaugh 2nd 1984 (7 games)
Jaoquin Gage 5th 1992 (17 games played)
Mike Minard 4th 1995 (1 NHL game)
Mike Morrison 7th 1998 (21 NHL games)
Ty Conlkin Undrafted 2001 (solid career back-up)
Jussi Markannen 5th 2001 (5 year back-up career)
Jeff Deslauriers 2nd 2002 (has the tools, still hasn't put them together)
Devan Dubnyk 1st 2004 (jury still out, but seems promising)

Sprinkle in some recycling of other teams problem goalies (Brathwaite, Essensa, Reddick, Gerber, Roussel, Tugnutt, Valiquette, Ing) and the track record since Fuhr and Moog is not good. Reaugh was highly touted out of the WHL, Deslauriers seems destined to career back-up status.

All of their solid starting goaltending since Fuhr has been acquired by trade. Ranford, Joseph, Salo, Roloson and now Khabibulin.

Malefic74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 03:40 PM
  #114
hannes_ko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74 View Post
Jussi Markannen 5th 2001 (5 year back-up career)
Was he really considered to be Oilers' goalie of the future? I would say he was more of a longshot for a back-up job, and that's what he did. He even gave Oilers a bonus effort: he nearly won them Stanley Cup as a starter. I think he had pretty good NHL career considering his talent.

hannes_ko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 04:12 PM
  #115
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
I always felt that DiPietro was overrated but I hardly think expecting him to be a competent NHL starter (and even star based on his draft position) was ever "ridiculous" or "unreasonable." Two good seasons does not an expected high-impact career make.
You did say "expected fifteen years or more," which pretty much means Brodeur or bust. That's a similar thing to all those fans who demand 3 60+ point players on their teams' second line.

When someone says "goalie of the future," I take that to mean a goaltender who is hoped to eventually become the "goalie of the present" at some point. When someone asks about GOTFs that don't pan out, we're asking for GOTFs that didn't manage to become GOTPs.

Now, if someone wanted to make a thread titles "#1 picks who teams cleaned house solely to make room for, and ignored several other huge talents in order to draft, who didn't pan out," Dipietro should be the first and only name on the list. Because Dipietro didn't justify that kind of investment. Khabibulin or Nabokov would be considered busts under those conditions.

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 05:39 PM
  #116
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
And again, I disagree.

Based on the parameters of the question, I interpreted that to mean a goaltender who did not pan out relative to the expectations placed on them. The expectations of a Tyler Moss becoming a goaltender and a Rick DiPietro becoming a goaltender in the NHL are not equivalent. They are relative based on the corollary factors of their addition to their team's organizational talent pool. DiPietro's expectations are heightened by virtue of becoming a first overall pick. When a team expects a highly-prized goaltender to be in net for them at some point in the future, they generally do not plan that tenure to last for just one season. There is an expectation that they shall provide stability and fill that void for years to come.

You're taking the fifteen years comment far too literally in this instance as well. It was as much of a reference to DiPietro's albatross contract (which was spread out to an obscene length as a tactic to lower the annual cap hit) as it was a colloquial way of saying what I just mentioned: there is the expectation by teams that said goaltender will provide stable, productive netminding for many years. It's reasonable to suspect that virtually no one drafts a goaltender in the first two rounds under the belief that they be provided with just one or two decent seasons. You're generally banking on adding a cornerstone player to build a team around in most cases -- a lower-drafted player does not become burdened with such expectations. In DiPietro's case, he certainly cannot be said to have panned out in that regard, and thus to me he is a failed goaltender of the future. A goalie like Marc-Andre Fleury is a perfect example of a goaltender in similar circumstances who has made the most of his situation and met expectations.

But you may feel that a first overall pick with two seasons of decent contributions constitutes panning out. I don't.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 05:54 PM
  #117
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Highly-regarded Leafs goaltending prospects that never panned out:

*Eric Fichaud - 1st round, 1994
*Mikael Tellqvist - 3rd round, 2000
*Justin Pogge - 3rd round, 2004

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 06:24 PM
  #118
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
But you may feel that a first overall pick with two seasons of decent contributions constitutes panning out. I don't.
Did you miss the part where I said if we made a thread about "1st overall picks that...blah blah...and didn't pan out," that Rick Dipietro would be exhibit A? Why are you attributing an opinion to me that I straight up contradicted?

Rick Dipietro made good on being the Islanders' goalie of the future, but didn't make good on anything else.

Also, care to quote where the OP said that it should be relative to expectations?

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-07-2011, 07:16 PM
  #119
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Did you miss the part where I said if we made a thread about "1st overall picks that...blah blah...and didn't pan out," that Rick Dipietro would be exhibit A? Why are you attributing an opinion to me that I straight up contradicted?
I did no such thing.

Quote:
Rick Dipietro made good on being the Islanders' goalie of the future, but didn't make good on anything else.
He really didn't, as they have employed a rotating circus of goalies in his absence.

Yann Danis, Peter Manning, Joey MacDonald, Martin Biron, Dwayne Roloson, Al Montoya, Kevin Poulin, Mikko Koskinen, Nathan Lawson, Evgeni Nabokov, and Anders Nilsson over the last three-plus campaigns as a result of his injuries and ineffectiveness when he has played.

If he had panned out as their goaltender of the future he would be racking up 60-65 starts a season without issue. That has not been the case.

Quote:
Also, care to quote where the OP said that it should be relative to expectations?
I never attributed that statement to him. I simply stated that was my personal interpretation what of the thread question asked. Again, if you choose to disagree with my interpretation you are free to do so. I'm not sure why you have such an objection to me taking a different stance than you.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.