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Best Goalie Ever?

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Old
11-16-2011, 09:45 AM
  #51
MessierThanThou
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Originally Posted by Boring Trap View Post
Hasek only finished top 10 in games played 6 times in his 16 year career.
Patrick Roy did it 11 times.
Brodeur did it 14 times.

Games played is significant. You can't just ignore the fact his backups had to get a lot of playing time.

Except that Hasek usually faced more shots per season than Brodeur, despite having so much "time off."

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11-16-2011, 09:46 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Martin Brodeur
3. Patrick Roy
4. Jacques Plante
5. Dominik Hasek
6. Ken Dryden
7. Tony Esposito
8. Ed Belfour
9. Glenn Hall
10. George Hainsworth
11. Bernie Parent
12. Grant Fuhr
This is NHL only, right? Because you have 11 out of 12 being North American. No Tretiak. No Holecek.

Without being able to judge Sawchuck, Plante, Hall or Hainsworth, I rate Hasek as the best goalie ever. Probably the internationally best goalie ever (ahead of Tretiak and Holecek), and in addition to that also the perhaps best goalie ever within the NHL (most mention Roy as his biggest threat). Plus all his domestic accomplishments.

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11-16-2011, 10:09 AM
  #53
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I agree with TheDevilMadeMe in principle. Number of Vezinas are not a great argument, partially because they honour single season achievements rather that might overlook consistently excellent performance, and partially because the voters aren't that great. Sure, Casey, Kolzig, and Theodore won Vezinas in those years before Brodeur did, but that doesn't mean that any of them were better than Brodeur during those years.

On the flip side though, I don't think Brodeur should have any Vezinas. I think there's been a better candidate in each of the years he's won, though he was deservedly placed among the very best in the league in '07 and '08.

I certainly wouldn't use the "Oh, Hasek had 6 Vezinas before Brodeur had one" argument, because it equates to "Oh, Brodeur had 4 Vezinas before Vokoun and Luongo won," even though Vokoun and Luongo have both been better goalies than Brodeur, imo. The argument should be based on performance, not on hardware.

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11-16-2011, 10:12 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MessierThanThou View Post

Thomas had the most impressive single season peak that I've ever witnessed. He surpassed Hasek's SV% stats and then he did what Hasek could never do, and won a cup without 6 or 7 future Hall of Famers in front of him.
Not quite fare.

2011 Boston was not an all-time-great-team, but they at least were a good nasty all round team built for the playoffs. 1999 Buffalo without Hasek is probably the worse team to ever reach a Stanley Cup Final. Heck. Even with Hasek in goal that can be said.

Buffalos best defenceman that run is comparable to Bostons 3-4 guys. Peca and a healthy Satan probably the only ones I would place in a joint top-nine...

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11-16-2011, 10:16 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I agree with TheDevilMadeMe in principle. Number of Vezinas are not a great argument, partially because they honour single season achievements rather that might overlook consistently excellent performance, and partially because the voters aren't that great. Sure, Casey, Kolzig, and Theodore won Vezinas in those years before Brodeur did, but that doesn't mean that any of them were better than Brodeur during those years.

On the flip side though, I don't think Brodeur should have any Vezinas. I think there's been a better candidate in each of the years he's won, though he was deservedly placed among the very best in the league in '07 and '08.

I certainly wouldn't use the "Oh, Hasek had 6 Vezinas before Brodeur had one" argument, because it equates to "Oh, Brodeur had 4 Vezinas before Vokoun and Luongo won," even though Vokoun and Luongo have both been better goalies than Brodeur, imo. The argument should be based on performance, not on hardware.
But each of Haskek's six Vezina seasons he also led the league in SV%. In some of those seasons, the gap between him and #2 is quite huge. Brodeur, on the other hand, has never led the league in SV% ever, let alone doing it six times.

As also mentioned, despite playing in fewer games than Brodeur, Hasek also faced more shots and played for a worse team. They also gave up more power play opportunities in many of those seasons as well. So I'd say Hasek's hardware IS based on his performance.

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11-16-2011, 10:25 AM
  #56
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Consider

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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Not quite fare.

2011 Boston was not an all-time-great-team, but they at least were a good nasty all round team built for the playoffs. 1999 Buffalo without Hasek is probably the worse team to ever reach a Stanley Cup Final. Heck. Even with Hasek in goal that can be said.

Buffalos best defenceman that run is comparable to Bostons 3-4 guys. Peca and a healthy Satan probably the only ones I would place in a joint top-nine...
Consider the 1938 Chicago Black Hawks SC Champions with a winning percentage below .400.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CBH/1938.html

1999 Sabres were 9 games over .500 in terms of winning percentage.

Also sub .500 winning percentage teams made the SC finals fairly often.

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11-16-2011, 10:27 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Not quite fare.

2011 Boston was not an all-time-great-team, but they at least were a good nasty all round team built for the playoffs. 1999 Buffalo without Hasek is probably the worse team to ever reach a Stanley Cup Final. Heck. Even with Hasek in goal that can be said.

Buffalos best defenceman that run is comparable to Bostons 3-4 guys. Peca and a healthy Satan probably the only ones I would place in a joint top-nine...
Except that D-men Jason Wooley and Alexei Zhitnik both had 15 points for the Sabres. To put that into perspective, Selanne only had 15 points when Anaheim won the cup and Hossa only had 15 points for Chicago. And these are superstar forwards, not regular 40-point defensemen like Wooley and Zhitnik were. Even though they were lacking Satan, some unheralded guys really stepped it up, but yes, Hasek is by far the biggest reason they got there. There's no argument about that.

I don't know if they were the worst team to reach the finals, but they were definitely the least offensively gifted, with leading-scorer Satan only playing 12 games.

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11-16-2011, 10:37 AM
  #58
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It was Plante. Not just because he could stop the puck, either. Plante took away the dump in with unprecedented skating ability and unequaled stickhandling ability. Opposition teams could not dump the puck in from the blue line because Plante would go pick it up and rifle off a pass. His coverage range was remarkable and it was common for him to venture further from the net than any modern goalie, even carrying the puck up to the blueline himself!

No other goalie in any other era was such a wrench in the works to play against. He confounded teams utterly.
Sounds just like Brodeur

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Originally Posted by MessierThanThou View Post
You hear it time and time again because it's true. Brodeur's best season SV% wise was all the way back in 1996-97. He had an impressive .927...good enough to be a runner-up to Hasek. He had another great season in 1997-98, with .917...again, good enough for second place to Hasek. It's not like Brodeur was a late bloomer, the guy won his first Stanley Cup in his second season as a starter and probably deserved the Smythe (he led the '95 playoffs in SV%). He just had to wait for Hasek to slow down or leave before he could win the Vezina. Also, Roy won his first Vezina when he was 23 or 24 and his first Conn Smythe when he was 20.
I'm pretty sure that I watched more Martin Brodeur than you did, and he didn't become as consistently great until about 2002.

Even in those great save percentage seasons in the 90s, it wasn't entirely uncommon for him to let in a soft goal - the team was just so strong that it usually didn't matter. From about 2002-2008, he rarely let in a soft goal.

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11-16-2011, 11:33 AM
  #59
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What a load of nonsense. I swear some people think that every team except the Devils has been run by morons who can't figure out that you play your best goalie for as many games as he can handle
Yeah, only a moron would want a well-rested starting goalie in the play-offs!

Teams play their #1 as much as they need to. Teams with really strong back-up goalies can afford to rest their starters moe often.

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11-16-2011, 11:57 AM
  #60
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Yeah, only a moron would want a well-rested starting goalie in the play-offs!

Teams play their #1 as much as they need to. Teams with really strong back-up goalies can afford to rest their starters moe often.
Brodeur played 67 and 70 games in 1996-97 and 1997-98 when he had arguably the best backup in the league, Mike Dunham. He would have played more in 1996-97 but Dunham had to hit a minimum games requirement or else he'd be a free agent.

Brodeur played 73 games in 2001-02 when he was backed up by John Vanbiesbrouck, no longer starter worthy, but a well-above average backup.

His backups were often crap (because why pay for someone who won't play), but they weren't always crap, and even when good, rarely played.

Brodeur could play 70+ games per year without showing fatigue in the playoffs until only a few seasons ago (when he has been showing fatigue in the playoffs).

Do people really think that all goalies have the same endurance and durability?

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11-16-2011, 12:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Boring Trap View Post
Hasek only finished top 10 in games played 6 times in his 16 year career.
Patrick Roy did it 11 times.
Brodeur did it 14 times.

Games played is significant. You can't just ignore the fact his backups had to get a lot of playing time.
Not really, IMO.

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11-16-2011, 12:23 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Consider the 1938 Chicago Black Hawks SC Champions with a winning percentage below .400.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CBH/1938.html

1999 Sabres were 9 games over .500 in terms of winning percentage.

Also sub .500 winning percentage teams made the SC finals fairly often.
You are most certainly correct. I am not that knowledgeable about the game from about the mid 60´s and backwards (for that mather, comparing to most of the guys in the history department here I´m not that knowledgeable mid 60´s -early 80´s for that mather either...). And even as Blackhawks-fan growing up I know painfully little about that team. Only that it is one of the biggest cinderalla storys. I propably should have clearafied and said Stanley Cup finalist in the modern era to start with.

And I´m not basing it on statistics, though statistics is a fine tool it don´t tell the whole story. That Buffalo team without Hasek player for player was awful. Sure, some good to have players - but in my opion Hasek "stole" more than the points needed to separate them from Rangers, Florida and the rest of the pack. They wouldn´t make the playoffs without him... But, the goalie is a part of the team and they did make the playoffs AND the finals. So really my point is more of a sidenote.

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11-16-2011, 12:52 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MessierThanThou View Post
Except that D-men Jason Wooley and Alexei Zhitnik both had 15 points for the Sabres. To put that into perspective, Selanne only had 15 points when Anaheim won the cup and Hossa only had 15 points for Chicago. And these are superstar forwards, not regular 40-point defensemen like Wooley and Zhitnik were. Even though they were lacking Satan, some unheralded guys really stepped it up, but yes, Hasek is by far the biggest reason they got there. There's no argument about that.

I don't know if they were the worst team to reach the finals, but they were definitely the least offensively gifted, with leading-scorer Satan only playing 12 games.
Zhitnik and Woolley sure racked up the offensive numbers of their careers, but I would gladly subtract either or maybe (by stretching my argument a little bit to much...) both of them for nine points Chara. And as players as whole would place them belove Kaberle (even with his supbar playoffs...) in a stabile group with Ference and Seidenberg.

And I was to be honest cutting some Buffaloforwards a little low. Brown, Barnes, Juneau, Holzinger, Ward, Primeau the lesser and Sanderson were for longer ore shorter time good to have players for any team. Just not first or even second line players for a team trying to go deep in the playoffs. Even if Juneau and Sanderson had some really good years and Barnes had proven with the Panthers that he could be a good asset come spring time. I guesss what I´m trying to say is that I would gladly take any of Krejci, Bergeron, Kelley, Marchand, Ryder, Horton, Lucic, Peverley and old man Recchi before any Sabresforward not named Peca ore Satan...

And to have players like Selänne and Hossa put up 15 points in 21/22 games seems low - but still the luxury of having a superstar forward, even if not producing as regular, is the attention he´s gonna get from the opposite defence. For example: Crosbys in some eyes bad finals against the Red Wings sure opened space for his comrades. As did say Selänne for young Perry and Getzlaf, or Hossa for Toews and Kane.

With the Buffalo Sabres 99-edition all attention was on Hasek.

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11-16-2011, 01:11 PM
  #64
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The 1998-99 Sabres were a weak finalist, it is sometimes exaggerated as to how bad they were.

For one, their powerplay exploded in the playoffs.

For another, I think the 1995-96 Panthers were worse and the 1997-98 Capitals weren't much better.

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11-16-2011, 02:03 PM
  #65
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This is NHL only, right? Because you have 11 out of 12 being North American. No Tretiak. No Holecek.

Without being able to judge Sawchuck, Plante, Hall or Hainsworth, I rate Hasek as the best goalie ever. Probably the internationally best goalie ever (ahead of Tretiak and Holecek), and in addition to that also the perhaps best goalie ever within the NHL (most mention Roy as his biggest threat). Plus all his domestic accomplishments.
Ya, NHL only, and its really unfortunate Tretiak & Holecek never got the opportunity to play in the NHL because if they did Im absolutely certain they'd be included in any ranking at or very close to the top. Tretiak in particular. Subjectively, I never saw Hainsworth (way before my time) or Plante at their peaks; and only really caught Sawchuks' act during the Leafs 67 SC run when he absolutely stunned the very powerful Blackhawks in the semi's; wasnt around for his heroics in the early 50's with Detroit, nor Plantes' with the Habs mid 50's. My list or ranking if you will is based on a combination of what I witnessed and what Ive read/heard from people whose opinions I respect.

In terms of overall consistency/reliability & brilliance, I agree actually that youd' pretty much have to go with Hasek or Roy. Sawchuk, like Dryden & at times Tony Esposito could be inconsistent to awful. Amongst the greatest displays of goaltending Ive ever seen personally would be Roger Crozier with Detroit in the mid-60's; Sawchuk in 67; Dryden in 71; Tretiak in 72; Jim Craig in 1980 & so forth. Unfortunately, I wasnt really paying attention from the mid-70's through the 90's & 00's beyond the odd game to ascertain Roys', Haseks or Brodeurs full ranges however, based on the stats, awards & accolades in listening to those who did I'll take (yours included) their word on it, hence my rankings.

As for George Hainsworth, he won the Vezina in each of his first 3yrs in the league with a GAA of less than 1.50 (career it was 1.94) recording 22 shutouts in one (44 games) season; 94 over an 11yr span, eventually being surpassed by Terry Sawchuk in 63-64. He played when the league instituted some rule changes (forward pass) and was able to adapt & excel, maintaining his brilliance. Another guy who should probably be considered is Frankie Brimsek, "Mr. Zero", the first true American born & raised Star of the game with Boston in the late 30's & early 40's, though thats a bit of a toughie as the talent pool leading up to & during WW2 was rather shallow, so its a bit difficult to appraise in the overall scheme of things...


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11-16-2011, 02:11 PM
  #66
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Roy had the best career but hasek is the best goalie because hes simply better at stopping the puck, i base it on ability, not the teams they were gifted to play for.

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11-16-2011, 02:51 PM
  #67
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Ya, NHL only, and its really unfortunate Tretiak & Holecek never got the opportunity to play in the NHL because if they did Im absolutely certain they'd be included in any ranking at or very close to the top. Tretiak in particular. Subjectively, I never saw Hainsworth (way before my time) or Plante at their peaks; and only really caught Sawchuks' act during the Leafs 67 SC run when he absolutely stunned the very powerful Blackhawks in the semi's; wasnt around for his heroics in the early 50's with Detroit, nor Plantes' with the Habs mid 50's. My list or ranking if you will is based on a combination of what I witnessed and what Ive read/heard from people whose opinions I respect.

In terms of overall consistency/reliability & brilliance, I agree actually that youd' pretty much have to go with Hasek or Roy. Sawchuk, like Dryden & at times Tony Esposito could be inconsistent to awful. Amongst the greatest displays of goaltending Ive ever seen personally would be Roger Crozier with Detroit in the mid-60's; Sawchuk in 67; Dryden in 71; Tretiak in 72; Jim Craig in 1980 & so forth. Unfortunately, I wasnt really paying attention from the mid-70's through the 90's & 00's beyond the odd game to ascertain Roys', Haseks or Brodeurs full ranges however, based on the stats, awards & accolades in listening to those who did I'll take (yours included) their word on it, hence my rankings.

As for George Hainsworth, he won the Vezina in each of his first 3yrs in the league with a GAA of less than 1.50 (career it was 1.94) recording 22 shutouts in one (44 games) season; 94 over an 11yr span, eventually being surpassed by Terry Sawchuk in 63-64. He played when the league instituted some rule changes (forward pass) and was able to adapt & excel, maintaining his brilliance. Another guy who should probably be considered is Frankie Brimsek, "Mr. Zero", the first true American born & raised Star of the game with Boston in the late 30's & early 40's, though thats a bit of a toughie as the talent pool leading up to & during WW2 was rather shallow, so its a bit difficult to appraise in the overall scheme of things...
Eh, not really. Hainsworth's tiny GAAs were all before the league allowed the forward pass.

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11-16-2011, 04:06 PM
  #68
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Do people really think that all goalies have the same endurance and durability?
Definately not. That is not the only factor in games played.

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11-16-2011, 04:27 PM
  #69
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hasek was the best goaltender of all time in his day.

roy would be the guy if not for the freak that hasek was so he's a VERY close second

brodeur does not even belong in the conversation. he's a product of a system that any other goalie put into that position at the time would have the same numbers. he's the most overrated player in nhl history.

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11-16-2011, 04:59 PM
  #70
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Eh, not really. Hainsworth's tiny GAAs were all before the league allowed the forward pass.
Hey, c'mon now. Someone else demolished my Sawchuk. Let me keep at least one antique.

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11-16-2011, 05:51 PM
  #71
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I don't know how someone can seriously say that Hasek was almost as good as Roy in the playoff using stats.There's no statistics for key saves at key moments , actually getting it done for 4 playoff rounds 4 times in a career all the while being the best player on his team for 3 of them.Hasek might have win but we don't know if he would be capable of maintaining/step up his level as many times as Roy did when **** mattered.I think Roy was more of a leader and players would probably prefer having Roy behind them.

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11-16-2011, 06:52 PM
  #72
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Do people really think that all goalies have the same endurance and durability?
Endurance and durability is about more than just minutes played, though. From 1993-94 to 2001-02, Brodeur was the leader in games played with 588, 40 more than the next most (Roy). Despite this, Brodeur was sixth in shots against, behind Hasek, Roy, Joseph, Potvin, and Richter.

Hasek faced over 1000 more shots than Brodeur during that span. Would you say Brodeur was more durable?

From 2000-01 to 2008-09, Brodeur was once again the leader in games played, with 32 more than his nearest competitor (Luongo). However, Luongo faced nearly 1500 more shots.

To imply that Brodeur is one of a kind in his endurance and durability is false.

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11-16-2011, 07:28 PM
  #73
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George Hainsworth

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, not really. Hainsworth's tiny GAAs were all before the league allowed the forward pass.
When the forward pass was introduced, Georfe Hainsworth was 34 years old. Still adapted very well, played until he was 42, although sparingly his last few season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_goalie

Competed very well with the younger goalies in terms of games, played, shutouts and GAA arguably top 3 in the thirties.

Also in the pre forward pass era his numbers were exceptional in terms of games, shutouts, GAA while playing for the Canadiens without a standout dman the likes of a Eddie Shore, King Clancy, Ching Johnson. Herb Gardiner and Sylvio Mantha were solid HHOF dmen but not at the level of the aforementioned.

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11-16-2011, 08:10 PM
  #74
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Endurance and durability is about more than just minutes played, though. From 1993-94 to 2001-02, Brodeur was the leader in games played with 588, 40 more than the next most (Roy). Despite this, Brodeur was sixth in shots against, behind Hasek, Roy, Joseph, Potvin, and Richter.

Hasek faced over 1000 more shots than Brodeur during that span. Would you say Brodeur was more durable?

From 2000-01 to 2008-09, Brodeur was once again the leader in games played, with 32 more than his nearest competitor (Luongo). However, Luongo faced nearly 1500 more shots.

To imply that Brodeur is one of a kind in his endurance and durability is false.
This, my friends, is called lying with statistics.

1) What do the shot totals look like if you take into account an estimate of the shot bias at the old Meadowlands Arena?

2) Of course, this ignores the times a goalie leaves the net to play, something that actually uses up quite a bit of energy.

This isn't NHL2011; in real life, goalies are not inactive until faced with a shot and shots are not recorded by a computer.

3) I assume the Brodeur vs. Luongo comparison also ignores the much larger number of playoff games Brodeur played, which not only added to his work but also reduced offseason recovery time.


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11-16-2011, 08:16 PM
  #75
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When the forward pass was introduced, Georfe Hainsworth was 34 years old. Still adapted very well, played until he was 42, although sparingly his last few season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_goalie

Competed very well with the younger goalies in terms of games, played, shutouts and GAA arguably top 3 in the thirties.

Also in the pre forward pass era his numbers were exceptional in terms of games, shutouts, GAA while playing for the Canadiens without a standout dman the likes of a Eddie Shore, King Clancy, Ching Johnson. Herb Gardiner and Sylvio Mantha were solid HHOF dmen but not at the level of the aforementioned.
His accomplishments after the advent of the forward pass are:
  • Never better than 3rd in GAA
  • Zero Vezinas
  • Zero Times First or Second Team All Star
  • 1 Stanley Cup

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