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HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

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Old
06-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #176
Hardyvan123
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Here are Bill white's voting results in some context


68 NORRIS: (216/216, 108-108)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 68 (56-12)
2. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 31 (5-26)
3. Tim Horton, Tor 30 (22-8)
4. Jim Neilson, NYR 26 (0-26)
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 15 (3-12)
6. Pierre Pilote, Chi 11 (11-0)
7. Bill White, LA 9 (1-8)
8. Mike McMahon, Min 8 (0-8)
9. Ted Green, Bos 6 (0-6)
10. Harry Howell, NYR 5 (3-2)
11. Gary Bergman, Det 4 (4-0)
T12. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1 (1-0)
T12. Ed Van Impe, Phi 1 (1-0)
T12. Kent Douglas, Oak-Det 1 (1-0)[/B]

Note Brewer was dominating the IHL and I think most would put him above white in this season and Carl was 46th on the top 60 list.


69 NORRIS: (324/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 176
2. Tim Horton, Tor 48
3. Ted Green, Bos 27
4. Ted Harris, Mtl 22
5. Al Arbour, St. L 17
6. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 9
7. Jim Nielson, NYR 7
8. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 5
9. Bill White, LA 4
T10. Pat Stapleton, Chi 3
T10. Bob Baun, Det 3
12. Carol Vadnais, Oak 2
13. Doug Harvey, StL 1

70 NORRIS: (319/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22 NHL after 2 years in Finland, IHL
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11
6. Al Arbour, StL 9
7. Pat Stapleton, Chi 8
T8. Wayne Connelly, Det 3
T8. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T8. Doug Mohns, Chi 3
T11. Doug Jarrett, Chi 2
T11. Barclay Plager, StL 2

Note: Bill White is not in the top 12 for Norris voting, plays 40 games for LA and 21 for Chicago

71 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10
7. Bill White, Chi 9 2 teammates ranked higher
T8. Dallas Smith, Bos 6
T8. Jim Neilson, NYR 6
10. Rod Seiling, NYR 5
11. Ted Harris, Min 4
12. Tim Horton, NYR 3
T13. Jim Roberts, StL 1
T13. Don Awrey, Bos 1

72 NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25 Age 32 and makes 1st post season all star team
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8
6. Dallas Smith, Bos 3
T7. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T7. Gary Bergman, Det 1
T7. Gilles Marotte, LA 1
T7. Rod Seiling, NYR 1
T7. Ted Harris, Min 1

73 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36 plays 52 games
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25 plays 57 games
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22 age 27 plays 74 games and is plus 70 maybe splits votes with the two L's?
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4
T11. Gary Bergman, Det 2
T11. Larry Hillman, Buf 2
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1
T13. Barclay Plager, StL 1

74 NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 236
2. Brad Park, NYR 98
3. Bill White, Chi 44
4. Barry Ashbee, Phi 11
5. Borje Salming, Tor 10 Rookie year and should be higher IMO
6. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 8
7. Denis Potvin, NYI 6 rookie year and should be higher IMO
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 4
T9. Ed Van Impe, Phi 3
T9. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 3 42 games
T9. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3 57 games
T12. Serge Savard, Mtl 1
T12. Jocelyn Guevremont, Van 1
T12. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T12. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T12. Terry Harper, LA 1
T12. Phil Russell, Chi 1

Note: Bill White finishes 3rd in Norris Voting age 34 playing in 69 games then fall out of the voting the next year playing 51 games. Was his drop off the cliff that sudden and that steep or was he perhaps overrated by the voters in 74? The voters were also all over the map on the Montreal Dmen from 73,74,75 but perhaps some of the Montreal guys have bigger reputations overall than should be warranted but that's for another day.

75 NORRIS: (486/486)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 266
2. Denis Potvin, NYI 99
3. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 45
4. Borje Salming, Tor 31
5. Serge Savard, Mtl 14
T6. Don Awrey, Stl-Mtl 6
T6. Jerry Korab, Buf 6
8. Brad Park, NYR 5
9. Terry Harper, LA 4
10. Jim Schoenfeld, Buf 3
T11. Carol Vadnais, Bos 2
T11. Ed Van Impe, Phi 2
T13. Dave Burrows, Pit 1
T13. Larry Robinson, Mtl 1
T13. Ron Stackhouse, Pit 1

White has dropped out now and Potvin and Slaming both get their due after probably less deserving results the year before.

All of this is before adding the fact that 3 other top 60 dmen were playing at the time in Europe.

Vasiliev (25th played 66-84)
Suchy (49th played 63-83)
Posisil (58th played 61-78)

Now if one agrees with these rankings, or at least that they are close how would their inclusion in the NHL affect White's voting record?

We don't know but it's quite possible and heck even likely that it would downgrade it to some degree, perhaps even a large one.

White's NHL playoff resume is above average and may be described as quite good even but his AHL one is poor and even in the regular season he never won the best Dman award in the AHL.

Some suggest that the 06 kept him out of the NHL but even if expansion came sooner it's debatable if he would have even cracked the top 10 before he did.

I don't buy the 2 or 3 1st team all star argument either as it's selective on other guys being injured and doesn't account for the 3 European guys in our top 60 not in the NHL or others who might have been on the top 60 lists of some.

White had some good seasons and has a good defensive reputation, at least for the later part of his career but there isn't a strong case for him being in the top 80 Dmen of all time IMO, never mind the top 60


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 06-14-2012 at 09:40 PM.
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08-16-2012, 09:36 PM
  #177
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Quite surprised Babe Pratt didn't make the cut..

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08-17-2012, 09:44 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
Quite surprised Babe Pratt didn't make the cut..
There was a lot of discussion surrounding Pratt in Round 12 of the voting.

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08-18-2012, 08:35 AM
  #179
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Anyone else find the last portion of seventies' post #171 a little... schizophrenic?

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08-18-2012, 12:41 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Anyone else find the last portion of seventies' post #171 a little... schizophrenic?
Perhaps but I've had people close to me who are bipolar.

Thanks for posting hardyvan123.

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08-19-2012, 01:23 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Anyone else find the last portion of seventies' post #171 a little... schizophrenic?
haha... I forgot to put the quote in there... that was Hockey Outsider, not me. I was pasting in stuff from a previous thread.

somehow I missed hardyvan's last post on White. Full of holes and assumptions. Not really interested in going over the full details, but:

- Keith Magnuson was never as good as Bill White, or even close. It doesn't matter what the voting seemed to say in one season.

- White played 51 games in 1975; why would you expect him to get Norris recognition? This isn't Brad Park we're talking about here. This has nothing to do with him "falling off the map".

- Better players don't finish ahead of lesser players in every single season that their careers overlap. The Europeans argument doesn't hold much water, and I know that for Hardyvan in particular, it really doesn't.

- It's actually quite funny how easily he can discount White's defensive reputation, as though it simply doesn't matter that he was so often named "the best defensive defenseman in the NHL" or "one of the best..." or "arguably the best" or literally voted the best or 2nd best by NHL coaches and correspondents. No, it's not important at all that he was probably the best defensive defenseman of the 1970s, is it?

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08-19-2012, 01:50 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
haha... I forgot to put the quote in there... that was Hockey Outsider, not me. I was pasting in stuff from a previous thread.

somehow I missed hardyvan's last post on White. Full of holes and assumptions. Not really interested in going over the full details, but:

- Keith Magnuson was never as good as Bill White, or even close. It doesn't matter what the voting seemed to say in one season.

- White played 51 games in 1975; why would you expect him to get Norris recognition? This isn't Brad Park we're talking about here. This has nothing to do with him "falling off the map".

- Better players don't finish ahead of lesser players in every single season that their careers overlap. The Europeans argument doesn't hold much water, and I know that for Hardyvan in particular, it really doesn't.

- It's actually quite funny how easily he can discount White's defensive reputation, as though it simply doesn't matter that he was so often named "the best defensive defenseman in the NHL" or "one of the best..." or "arguably the best" or literally voted the best or 2nd best by NHL coaches and correspondents. No, it's not important at all that he was probably the best defensive defenseman of the 1970s, is it?
Which one is it?

It doesn't matter when they vote for Keith over Bill and then it does matter when they say something nice about Bill? To be fair there were not a lot of votes to go around in 70 after Orr then huge drop off to Park and then the pack.

Even if Bill plays the entire season in 75 does he even have a legit case of cracking the top 5? Robinson was down the list as well quite a bit and Savard had his 20-40-60 season with pretty good D that year.

Even if your peak value of White is correct, there is still no denying his late entry into the NHL (and no special circumstances to give his extra credit like Brewer for instance) and not making an all-star team until age 32 makes his being on the top 60 list pretty suspicious over a guy like Zubov for instance (or take your pick over a dozen other guys).


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 08-19-2012 at 02:06 AM.
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08-19-2012, 02:07 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Which one is it?
It is both; I am referring to three separate incidents and I wouldn't be honest if I was saying he was 1st every time.

Quote:
It doesn't matter when they vote for Keith over Bill and then it does matter when they say something nice about Bill? To be fair there were not a lot of votes to go around in 70 after Orr then huge drop off to Park and then the pack.
we're talking about the difference between a coaches poll where they almost unanimously voted him the best defensive defenseman in the NHL in 1974, and where a small minority of people each threw him and Magnuson a couple of votes. World of difference.

Magnuson was a popular player but not a great one.

Quote:
Even if Bill plays the entire season in 75 does he even ahve a legit case of cracking the top 5? Robinson was down the list as well quite a bit and Savard had his 20-40-60 season with pretty good D that year.
No, probably not. But the presence or absence of other players doesn't make White any better or worse. He was the same player.

Quote:
Even if your peak value of White is correct, there is still no denying his late entry into the NHL (and no special circumstances to give his extra credit like Brewer for instance) and not making an all-star team makes his being on the top 60 list pretty suspicious over a guy like Zubov for instance (or take your pick over a dozen other guys).
there was simply no way for him to get to the NHL at the time. The hockey establishment in the O6 era was not a perfectly functioning meritocracy. And it is probably very likely that he wasn't an all-star caliber player the whole time, had he been in the NHL. But he was an NHL-caliber player, at least, at a time when there was only room for 30 defensemen. If he was an NHL defenseman from age 20 and averaged 65 games a year then we're looking at a guy with 1100 games, and maybe 450 points, and still three 2nd team all-stars while being known as the league's best defensive defenseman at his best. It wouldn't look strange to you, or anyone, if he was on the list with that resume. So if you agree with that, then it sounds like nothing more than his low NHL GP total is being held against him here.

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08-19-2012, 03:13 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It is both; I am referring to three separate incidents and I wouldn't be honest if I was saying he was 1st every time.



we're talking about the difference between a coaches poll where they almost unanimously voted him the best defensive defenseman in the NHL in 1974, and where a small minority of people each threw him and Magnuson a couple of votes. World of difference.

Magnuson was a popular player but not a great one.



No, probably not. But the presence or absence of other players doesn't make White any better or worse. He was the same player.



there was simply no way for him to get to the NHL at the time. The hockey establishment in the O6 era was not a perfectly functioning meritocracy. And it is probably very likely that he wasn't an all-star caliber player the whole time, had he been in the NHL. But he was an NHL-caliber player, at least, at a time when there was only room for 30 defensemen. If he was an NHL defenseman from age 20 and averaged 65 games a year then we're looking at a guy with 1100 games, and maybe 450 points, and still three 2nd team all-stars while being known as the league's best defensive defenseman at his best. It wouldn't look strange to you, or anyone, if he was on the list with that resume. So if you agree with that, then it sounds like nothing more than his low NHL GP total is being held against him here.
He wasn't in the NHL and wasn't ever voted the best Dman in the league he was in (AHL).

But even if we play the "if game", what if Valeri Vasiliev (25th in our top 60), Jan Suchý (49), František Pospíšil (59) got the chance to play in the NHL and Brewer stayed and Savard didn't suffer that leg injury, maybe White doesn't make the top 100 list even if he plays in the NHL before expansion.

It can go more than 1 direction there and the biggest point is that White might have been capable of playing in the NHL before he got the chance but nothing (that has been brought forward) really distinguishes him from a dozen other guys in this regard over the same time period.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 08-19-2012 at 03:18 AM.
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08-19-2012, 03:54 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
...there is still no denying his late entry into the NHL (and no special circumstances to give his extra credit like Brewer for instance)...
There most definitely is. He played for Eddie Shore in Springfield who had a reputation for keeping his players stuck there regardless of how good they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier's Greatest Hockey Legends
Bill was traded to the Springfield Indians of the AHL, a team that was owned by the legendary Eddie Shore. Little did White know what impact Shore would have on his hockey career. The good news was that Bill developed into one of AHL's best defensemen under Shore's tutelage, a NHL caliber defender at that. The bad news was that he got stuck with Shore and Springfield for five years.

Shore was every hockey players nightmare and Bill's situation wasn't any different. Although Bill was clearly good enough for the NHL, Shore denied him the opportunity to play in the NHL. Several teams showed their interest in Bill but quickly changed their minds when Shore told them what he wanted in return.

During the 1966-67 seasons some of the Springfield players revolted and threatened to strike if the conditions wouldn't improve. This was a start of a new regime where the players paved the way for themselves to call a few shots of their own. The following summer the wealthy Jack Kent Cooke bought the entire Springfield team with the intent to move the team to Los Angeles where the best players would form the base for the expansion Los Angeles Kings. These events proved to be the break for Bill that he had waited for a long time.
http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.co...ill-white.html

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08-19-2012, 04:16 AM
  #186
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White might have been capable of playing in the NHL before he got the chance but nothing (that has been brought forward) really distinguishes him from a dozen other guys in this regard over the same time period.
Yes. his performance upon getting into the NHL. Obviously.

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08-19-2012, 08:03 AM
  #187
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Eddie Shore

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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
There most definitely is. He played for Eddie Shore in Springfield who had a reputation for keeping his players stuck there regardless of how good they were.


http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.co...ill-white.html
Far from accurate reputation, evidenced by Bob McCord who was traded to Boston:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...mccorbo01.html

and Ted Harris, traded to Montreal:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...harrite01.html

while teammates of Bill White. Obviously Boston and Montreal thought McCord and Harris were better.

Also Bill White was acquired from the Toronto by Eddie Shore for Kent Douglas who got his NHL chance:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...whitebi01.html

Note that Bill White was part of a large group of players that were traded for Kent Douglas, so he was not highly regarded by Toronto.
Also notice the improvement in White's performance playing for Eddie Shore after playing for Toronto farm clubs.

Accept that Bill White took a long time to develop as did other contemporary defensemenmen and forwards whether they were playing for Eddie Shore or elsewhere.

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08-19-2012, 02:04 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
There most definitely is. He played for Eddie Shore in Springfield who had a reputation for keeping his players stuck there regardless of how good they were.
We know that he was in the AHL, but that's hardly any proof of how good he was.


http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.co...ill-white.html[/QUOTE]

Joe Pelletier does great work but his biographies tend to look like they were written by each players mother and there is seldom constructive criticism in them. I'd venture to say that while he called White one of the best AHL Dmen he would say the same thing about other Dmen in the AHL in their biographies at the same time.

And we do know that he never won the best Dman award in the AHL and what C1958 has presented, it hardly paints a picture of a guy like the 3 Dmen from Europe who didn't play in the NHL at the time, not to mention Swedish legend Svedberg.

Quite simply White isn't a top 60 Dman of all time IMO. He is in the mix for top 100 with about 50 other guys.

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08-19-2012, 02:54 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan
And we do know that he never won the best Dman award in the AHL and what C1958 has presented, it hardly paints a picture of a guy like the 3 Dmen from Europe who didn't play in the NHL at the time, not to mention Swedish legend Svedberg.
During the top 60 defenseman project, you repeatedly panned the non-NHL Euros during the discussion phase and repeatedly voted them out of your top 10. Did your opinion on them change since then?

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08-19-2012, 05:23 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Far from accurate reputation, evidenced by Bob McCord who was traded to Boston:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...mccorbo01.html

and Ted Harris, traded to Montreal:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...harrite01.html

while teammates of Bill White. Obviously Boston and Montreal thought McCord and Harris were better.

Also Bill White was acquired from the Toronto by Eddie Shore for Kent Douglas who got his NHL chance:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...whitebi01.html

Note that Bill White was part of a large group of players that were traded for Kent Douglas, so he was not highly regarded by Toronto.
Also notice the improvement in White's performance playing for Eddie Shore after playing for Toronto farm clubs.

Accept that Bill White took a long time to develop as did other contemporary defensemenmen and forwards whether they were playing for Eddie Shore or elsewhere.
McCord was traded for 4 players. Douglas was traded for 5 players.

This shows how much Shore wanted in return for his players.

The only thing White's not being traded from Springfield shows is that nobody wanted to pay the 3-5 players price Shore was likely asking.

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08-19-2012, 06:12 PM
  #191
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Eddie Shore II

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McCord was traded for 4 players. Douglas was traded for 5 players.

This shows how much Shore wanted in return for his players.

The only thing White's not being traded from Springfield shows is that nobody wanted to pay the 3-5 players price Shore was likely asking.
Plenty of 3/4/5 : 1 trades in hockey history. Max Bentley went to the Leafs for 5 players. Cy Thomas was not a factor just changed the ratio. Today signing an elite RFA brings a similar draft pick package.

That Shore wanted players as opposed to dollars is a tribute to his business acumen.

Cleveland sold John Ferguson to the Canadiens. Granted, over the years the Canadiens had made plenty of players available to Cleveland.

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08-19-2012, 06:28 PM
  #192
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During the top 60 defenseman project, you repeatedly panned the non-NHL Euros during the discussion phase and repeatedly voted them out of your top 10. Did your opinion on them change since then?
No they didn't, there are question marks there that I ahven't been able to resolve, but if as a group we considered them to be worthy of that ranking and they had played in the NHL at that time and were indeed that good it would affect Bill White's ranking would it not?

I mean it's possible that there were a lot of good Dmen around in the late 60's and early 70's but the NHL was watered down and expanding and even more so in the early 70's with the WHA.

It could also be that we are judging some players too easily as well.

Personally, both the guys playing in Europe and guys like Bill White get 100% of the doubt from soem guys IMO, when in fact something really has to give to make it a fair comp to later players (I'll through out Zubov) who actually did play in a fully integrated league and then didn't do as well "against their peers" because the actual peer group included everyone.

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10-01-2012, 12:47 AM
  #193
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Wow, I thought Harvey was around 6'01".
Nah. I think 5'11 was a stretch. Ran into him a couple of times in some Montreal taverns years ago. I seemed quite a bit taller. I' m a tad over 6'. Salming, on the other hand, seemed to be quite a bit bigger than me, but he's only listed at 6'1". I would've thought 6'3". He looked pretty big on the ice, too.

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11-06-2012, 08:51 PM
  #194
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Morgan Reillys not on the list? But seriously, pretty good list.

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11-13-2012, 05:54 AM
  #195
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Fetisov is ranked a bit too low and lidstrom a bit too high. That list looks fairly credible, though. Just as an addendum, I doubt the avg fan realizes just how great doug harvey was at the peak of his career. He was very dominant in a subtle way and was better than lidstrom by a fair bit. The man could literally defuse an opposition attack all by himself (just ask G. Howe).

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11-13-2012, 06:23 AM
  #196
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Fetisov is ranked a bit too low
Watch out, you're in danger of being confused with a russian homer or one of their european acolytes.

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11-13-2012, 07:43 AM
  #197
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Vyacheslpv Fetisov

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Originally Posted by sayitaintsocomrade View Post
Fetisov is ranked a bit too low and lidstrom a bit too high. That list looks fairly credible, though. Just as an addendum, I doubt the avg fan realizes just how great doug harvey was at the peak of his career. He was very dominant in a subtle way and was better than lidstrom by a fair bit. The man could literally defuse an opposition attack all by himself (just ask G. Howe).
Pre car accident that claimed his younger brother, up with Ray Bourque.

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11-13-2012, 08:04 AM
  #198
lazerbullet
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Originally Posted by sayitaintsocomrade View Post
Fetisov is ranked a bit too low and lidstrom a bit too high. That list looks fairly credible, though. Just as an addendum, I doubt the avg fan realizes just how great doug harvey was at the peak of his career. He was very dominant in a subtle way and was better than lidstrom by a fair bit. The man could literally defuse an opposition attack all by himself (just ask G. Howe).
Sounds like... Lidstrom.

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11-14-2012, 03:37 PM
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Sounds like... Lidstrom.
Yup, it's always funny when people slight Lidstrom and then praise Harvey at the same time. They sound like they were extremely similar and had extremely similar career paths, only Lidstrom played in a much more advanced and fully integrated league.

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11-14-2012, 03:51 PM
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Yup, it's always funny when people slight Lidstrom and then praise Harvey at the same time. They sound like they were extremely similar and had extremely similar career paths, only Lidstrom played in a much more advanced and fully integrated league.
You realise that playing in a "much more advanced" league makes defense easier to play, not harder right?
Harvey stood out defensively without the advanced systems or getting any where near the kind of consistent defensive help that Lidstrom had.
This is the same reason why I consider Langway's play and accomplishments defensively to be more impressive than Lidstrom's.
Harvey and Lid's offense is pretty similar but the biggest difference between them was Harvey's puck possession skills and how he, like Bourque, controlled the entire ice not just 60'-90' like Lidstrom.

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