I don't think Dallas is at all scared of Russians. I'm betting they just utilize their best amateur scouts elsewhere.
Except people in the know say otherwise. It is a questionable tactic but given the nature of a number of young Russians over the last few years I can't say that I blame them.
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan
Two things, first there's no guarantee they'll add to payroll. Would you dump more money into a losing product, one that's aging poorly for several players or would you try to trade said players, get younger and maybe add a FA or two if possible. Throwing money at a problem doesn't always result in a better product. See Toronto for an example.
Second, I'm not ready to throw them under the bus just yet but Morrow has had long stretches of time being a black hole offensively for the past three years. That he's hurt yet again shows that he's not aging well for this league and dumping him now (@the deadline) is far better than hoping he turns it around. I don't want him tossed for scraps but Morrow at the deadline adds a decent center/winger prospect and a pick.
I know people don't want to hear the word rebuild. But they need to look at the composite of this roster and realize Dvorak, Fiddler, Nystrom, and Pardy will not solve our offensive woes, abysmal work ethic at times, poor positioning, and a failure to properly defend that is becoming the hallmark of this franchise rather than the defensive stalwarts they were in the 1990s.
This team isn't anywhere close to the Dallas of 2008 and if it's not the coach, the GM, the fans, it must be the players. Modano, Turco, and Avery are gone. So who's left to blame?
Where was all this talk when the team was in the middle of a four game winning streak?
Of course Dvorak, Fiddler and Nystrom aren't going to solve any offensive woes; for chrissakes they weren't brought here to do that! They were brought here to first and foremost add to a collective defensive conscience, one that left the team when Crawford was hired.
Our best players are under 27 (Benn, Eriksson) and contrary to popular belief around here not all of our prospects are absolute ****. One of Glennie, Reilly Smith, Chiasson are more than likely going to be solid, if not spectacular, contributors. Others are capable of being role players on good teams.
And on the subject of money...I don't want to see this team become a cap ceiling team by opening night 2012. What I as a paying fan want to see is some kind of show of good faith from ownership that money can, and will, be added when the right player(s) comes along. I don't want an offseason like the one Florida just had. I don't even want one like Buffalo just had. I just want a six month period that shows that this organization is committed to winning as many games as possible without thought to personal feelings of player personnel. If Morrow doesn't get his **** together he should be gone and the Benn as captain era should begin. If Ribs doesn't get the magic back in his hands he should be gone. Now is no time to show favortism to anybody, now should be a time when tough decisions should be made. I'm not asking Gaglardi to pump tons of money into this thing needlessly, I'm just asking that we don't have to be a cap floor team with a GM forced to make move after move while being handcuffed by a bull**** budget that virtually no other team has to deal with.
Morrow on the other hand, something is up with him. Maybe he's just hit a turning point in his career and will always look this bad, but he's been ineffective and a lousy captain on the ice. I miss WCF playoff run Morrow, that guy was inspiring to watch and he made a difference.
In Morrow's defense, he did try to fight Jovanoski when poo hit the fan I believe in the 2nd period and Javanoski wouldn't go. Both ended up getting matching cross checking penalties. Morrow is just getting older. I said it at the game, he is the most un-fluid skater on the team IMO. He looks like a robot on skates. I don't foresee him going anywhere in terms of a trade this year mainly because he's one of the few remaining icons from the past on this team. If he doesn't start making his presence known a little more though, I could possibly see him being dealt in the offseason.
I'm still wondering if he hasn't fully recovered from that knee injury from a few years back. Those types of injuries can derail a career.
This team isn't anywhere close to the Dallas of 2008 and if it's not the coach, the GM, the fans, it must be the players. Modano, Turco, and Avery are gone. So who's left to blame?
Except people in the know say otherwise. It is a questionable tactic but given the nature of a number of young Russians over the last few years I can't say that I blame them.
I really find it difficult to believe that anyone in the Stars organization would have admitted to the public of having an anti-Russian bias. Heika's speculation doesn't really do anything for me in the way of confirmation.
The Russian bias is more of an HF invention. However, if you're talking about Russian prospects that come to North America in their teens to play CHL hockey such as Kulikov, then the Stars, and many other teams in the league, are justifiably hesitant to spend high draft picks on them.
I really find it difficult to believe that anyone in the Stars organization would have admitted to the public of having an anti-Russian bias. Heika's speculation doesn't really do anything for me in the way of confirmation.
The Russian bias is more of an HF invention. However, if you're talking about Russian prospects that come to North America in their teens to play CHL hockey such as Kulikov, then the Stars, and many other teams in the league, are justifiably hesitant to spend high draft picks on them.
It wasn't Heika it was Gare Joyce who reported that about Kulikov; the quote is a couple pages back.
In any case, I disagree that any Russian bias is some kind of HF meme. It's talked about openly in hockey circles by all parties involved, HF just happens to be the place we discuss it. The KHL is much more enticing to Russian players than say the SEL is to Swedish players and SM-Liiga to Finns, etc. Russian players can get paid very well to play hockey at a high level in their homeland while being able to speak their native tongue while doing so. When one of, if not the best, player in the KHL is a twenty-something former NHL'er I have a real hard time with the idea that there isn't a legitimate threat of Russian players heading back home if they're not happy with how their development is going here.
It's an HF creation perpetuated by the media. HF has a surprising amount of influence over the hockey media, and I'm betting many writers lurk HF and other message boards for material. Some even post.
Regardless, Joyce's quote doesn't agree with you quite the way you think it does. Kulikov being Russian was a factor not because of the KHL, but because he was a Russian prospect playing in the CHL, like Radulov, Filatov, and just about every high end Russian prospect to flee to the KHL. The CHL is a bad place to go for Russians for their development. I'm surprised more people aren't skeptical about Yakupov; Grigorenko to me is a much smarter first overall pick.
The MHL/KHL system ruins a lot of decent prospects by rushing them too early, but the prospects that actually do thrive in the KHL as 16-18 year olds are very likely to also thrive in the NHL. It's horrible for the Russian national team but great for NHL scouts.
If you haven't noticed the "Russian factor" is kind of a pet peeve for me.
It's an HF creation perpetuated by the media. HF has a surprising amount of influence over the hockey media, and I'm betting many writers lurk HF and other message boards for material. Some even post.
If that's what you're going with then you're free to think that. I tend to think it has a little something to do with personal and professional conversations between journalists and management teams/scouts, as well as the Radulovs of the world. Canadian players in his situation wouldn't have had the same "out" Radulov did.
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear
Regardless, Joyce's quote doesn't agree with you quite the way you think it does. Kulikov being Russian was a factor not because of the KHL, but because he was a Russian prospect playing in the CHL, like Radulov, Filatov, and just about every high end Russian prospect to flee to the KHL. The CHL is a bad place to go for Russians for their development. I'm surprised more people aren't skeptical about Yakupov; Grigorenko to me is a much smarter first overall pick.
Actually, his quote does agree with me. I'm fairly certain that exact quote was taken from a thread where he said that in response to a specific question from me. What he reported from the Stars was directly related to Vishnevskiy's threats to go back to the KHL; if you recall, the Lehtonen trade was only a few months before the Glenni/Kulikov draft. As it related to the Stars, the "Russian factor" had nothing to do with Kulikov apprenticing in the CHL rather than in mother Russia - zilch.
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear
If you haven't noticed the "Russian factor" is kind of a pet peeve for me.
I know this means nothing.
Last summer Gare Joyce posted a 2011 draft prospects article on ESPN and there was a quote from Tim Bernhardt about Adam Larsson.
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35
Actually, his quote does agree with me. I'm fairly certain that exact quote was taken from a thread where he said that in response to a specific question from me. What he reported from the Stars was directly related to Vishnevskiy's threats to go back to the KHL; if you recall, the Lehtonen trade was only a few months before the Glenni/Kulikov draft. As it related to the Stars, the "Russian factor" had nothing to do with Kulikov apprenticing in the CHL rather than in mother Russia - zilch. .
Yes, that's where the quote was from, but I didn't save a link to the thread. The quote I know was a month or a couple months before the 2010 draft.
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear
I am very disappointed by Stars management then, if you are right.
While, I don't agree with the Stars logic on Russian players, but when a couple years earlier you draft a Russian player out of the CHL. Then you're having problems with them, it's hard not to be concerned about it potentially happening again. I'm not sure how early or often when Vishnevskiy made threats to go back to Russia.
Maybe things would've been different if it was a longer time frame when this happened. As for what GLU mentioned about the weird call ups, I believe there might have been two? In Vishnevskiy's first AHL season, which would've been before the 2009 draft, if he did make a threat about the KHL that early in the season, that would've probably had a even bigger impact on a potential Russian player even if they were playing in the CHL in the same year.
If the Stars drafted a few Russians out of the CHL and had problems with them, doesn't it seem logical to be skeptical towards drafting Russians out of the CHL, rather than drafting Russians in general? That's my problem. Russians drafted from the KHL/MHL have a very high success rate in the NHL, and it would be just plain moronic to avoid prospects from that region when the fundamental problem with Russian prospects only arises when they go to the CHL.
Just for the record, I was very skeptical of Kulikov in the 2009 draft. I was hoping the Stars would select Pääjärvi.
If the Stars drafted a few Russians out of the CHL and had problems with them, doesn't it seem logical to be skeptical towards drafting Russians out of the CHL, rather than drafting Russians in general? That's my problem. Russians drafted from the KHL/MHL have a very high success rate in the NHL, and it would be just plain moronic to avoid prospects from that region when the fundamental problem with Russian prospects only arises when they go to the CHL.
Just for the record, I was very skeptical of Kulikov in the 2009 draft. I was hoping the Stars would select Pääjärvi.
The Stars also had issues with Khomitski and he didn't play in the CHL. I think the last Russian player the Stars drafted was Korostin in 2007. It is a trend that seems to have spread throughout the league. The numbers of Russians drafted each year has dropped significantly since 2000. In the past three drafts only five Russians have been taken in the first round (and 3 of the 5 were drafted out of the CHL). Right or wrong there does to be some skepticism in drafting Russians.
The Stars also had issues with Khomitski and he didn't play in the CHL. I think the last Russian player the Stars drafted was Korostin in 2007. It is a trend that seems to have spread throughout the league. The numbers of Russians drafted each year has dropped significantly since 2000. In the past three drafts only five Russians have been taken in the first round (and 3 of the 5 were drafted out of the CHL). Right or wrong there does to be some skepticism in drafting Russians.
And that is the point entirely. Look at how many Russian players are being drafted and look at Russia. It's not that the player pool has decreased in quality that much over the years; we have to look at this objectively and in a league-wide context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear
Russians drafted from the KHL/MHL have a very high success rate in the NHL, and it would be just plain moronic to avoid prospects from that region when the fundamental problem with Russian prospects only arises when they go to the CHL.
What about Russian players coming to the CHL makes them more likely to be a threat to bolt for the KHL than Russian players who come up through the KHL itself? Where is the logic here? I'm not debating you at this point I'm asking a rational question?
The CHL doesn't make them more likely to bolt to the KHL, just less likely to become impactful NHL players, and that will make them more likely to go to the KHL.
Russian players almost never go to the KHL when there is a spot in the NHL for them.
The CHL doesn't make them more likely to bolt to the KHL, just less likely to become impactful NHL players, and that will make them more likely to go to the KHL.
Russian players almost never go to the KHL when there is a spot in the NHL for them.
But you pointed out Radulov as an example of this earlier, that he came up through the CHL and now is back in Russia. Thing is, he was quite obviously a successful player in the NHL which doesn't do much for your theory. I'm not saying there is no basis for it, just that it doesn't seem to hold up on all meaningful counts.
It seems to me more Russians in general are coming over at an earlier age to play in Canadian juniors. Who's to say those same players would've made the NHL in a previous era staying in Russia to finish their development? They simply might not be good enough. It's the same story with Czechs and other countries whose internal systems are failing to prepare their young players.
