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Old
11-19-2011, 01:48 PM
  #426
DrEasy
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It's pretty logical though: if we'd finished worse, we'd have drafted higher. The Lando vs Ziba debate is tangential. Even if Ziba is the guy we really wanted, we know he wouldn't have gone with the top 5 picks, so we could have traded our high pick for the #6 pick + something else.

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11-19-2011, 01:49 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by DrEasy View Post
It's pretty logical though: if we'd finished worse, we'd have drafted higher. The Lando vs Ziba debate is tangential. Even if Ziba is the guy we really wanted, we know he wouldn't have gone with the top 5 picks, so we could have traded our high pick for the #6 pick + something else.
But to call the trade a "failure" because good goaltending and a bad lottery bounce made our pick slightly worse is exceptionally short-sighted.

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11-19-2011, 01:59 PM
  #428
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I just speak highly of the ones I like...and if I was to bet on which prospect there's no way I'd take Zibanejad over Landeskog. Sure things matter in the draft...it's pretty much why Landeskog went so early

Zibanejad's 6'2 200, while Landeskog is 6 foot 204...Landeskog is ahead in his physical maturity. Look at these players on the ice and one looks bigger than the other, one looks like he has a bigger "frame". Hell, Zibanejad gained 10 points last summer alone....Landeskog stayed the same (or went down if anything, in the last year).

I've seen Landeskog play on 3 separate occassions. Zibanejad skates better than he does, that isn't to say Landeskog is a weak skater. The strength of his skating is his edge work aroun the net. He is fantastic around the net.

Who else do I overrate?

Karlsson? That's a laugh. I said in his rookie year he'll be one of the best offensive Dmen in hockey and his defensive potential would surprise people. Check. Already. I even said he may flirt with a PPG someday in his career....well for a crazy assessment, it's not THAT crazy anymore if you put Karlsson on a team that scores highly 5 on 5.

Rundblad? No wait, I said Rundblad was overrated as the 5th ranked prospect on HF.

Cowen? I maintained he'd be a #2 or #3....so far he looks like he'll be what I thought...a solid top pairing option that fits very well with Karlsson down the road. He's great on the PK 1 year out of junior and showing tons of promise. Hell, I even maintained we'd want him over Paajarvi despite his success last year because he quite clearly was lacking in offensive skills.

My favourite grinder the teams drafted since he first got to Ottawa has been Zack Smith.

I'm also one of the people trying to avoid bringing Lehner up as soon as Anderson struggles for 2-3 games.

Who do I overrate? Don't mistake over-talking prospects vs. overrating. Yes, now you must back yourself up.
Its odd, your statement above makes is sound like you are part of the Sens and play a role in who gets drafted, who gets sent down, which goalie plays, etc.

You aren't exactly going out on a limb with your predictions above. It was said that Karlsson was the steal of draft for a damn good reason, many people knew of his upside.

There is also a good reason why Murray chose Cowen and traded for Rundblad.

Do you really think seeing GL play on three occasions allows you to be a good judge of what he can bring to the table? If so, pro scouts are doing wrong by spending all this money and time watching these kids play over and over again.

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11-19-2011, 02:03 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by hockeyalltheway View Post
But to call the trade a "failure" because good goaltending and a bad lottery bounce made our pick slightly worse is exceptionally short-sighted.
Yeah, I won't argue semantics as I'm not the one who called the trade a "failure". As for the good goaltending aspect of the trade, we need to know if acquiring Anderson in the deal increased the odds of signing him in the off-season, or if maybe it helped getting a discount. Honestly, I don't see much of a discount.

In summary, if you don't make the trade you can still end up with Ziba and Anderson in 2011 if that's what you want, but by finishing last (or closer to last) and trading your top pick for a lower one you end up with something extra.

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11-19-2011, 02:06 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
Its odd, your statement above makes is sound like you are part of the Sens and play a role in who gets drafted, who gets sent down, which goalie plays, etc.

You aren't exactly going out on a limb with your predictions above. It was said that Karlsson was the steal of draft for a damn good reason, many people knew of his upside.

There is also a good reason why Murray chose Cowen and traded for Rundblad.

Do you really think seeing GL play on three occasions allows you to be a good judge of what he can bring to the table? If so, pro scouts are doing wrong by spending all this money and time watching these kids play over and over again.
I was told I overrate players to know end, I was asking where. If you're saying what I've said isn't going out on a limb....then where is all this overrating?

Seeing him in 3 spurts gives enough time to get a general look at his skills. That's 3 games in the NHL, mind you. I had seen him play multiple times last year as well. Skating ability isn't something you have to watch over time, neither is frame. All I've said is the upsides based on skill level and tools are similar...one player is a much more certain bet.

Our Director of Player Development also spoke of "huge upside"...they don't toss praise around like that often and I can only imagine "huge upside" is something around a PPG and solid all around the ice. Can't believe I have to reinforce this point, but by no means does upside = certainty.

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11-19-2011, 02:09 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
Its odd, your statement above makes is sound like you are part of the Sens and play a role in who gets drafted, who gets sent down, which goalie plays, etc.

You aren't exactly going out on a limb with your predictions above. It was said that Karlsson was the steal of draft for a damn good reason, many people knew of his upside.

There is also a good reason why Murray chose Cowen and traded for Rundblad.

Do you really think seeing GL play on three occasions allows you to be a good judge of what he can bring to the table? If so, pro scouts are doing wrong by spending all this money and time watching these kids play over and over again.
I think that was kind of his point, he was trying to show that he does not overrate players, maybe over talk them, but not overate.

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11-19-2011, 02:11 PM
  #432
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The Pens are kind of the exception, considering no team is lucky enough to have 2 of the top 5 players in the world on the same team, and Staal who wouldn't be a 3C on any other team, except maybe Vancouver.

What makes Lando such a valuable asset is that he plays so well in all aspects of the game, that he'd could carry his centre rather than feed off of him like a typical scoring winger. Much like Iginla does for Calgary, only not as talented offensivley.

As I said earlier, a 2C is more important than a 1st line winger, but I'd have taken Lando over MZ.
Yes? For Sens not for Colorado yes (Stastny, Duchene).

Great... you will have Landeskog--Spezza--xxx line and than? The second? Do you think Regin or Da Costa are so good as the second line centers in PO teams? Where is the certain you can draft a good center later when you have a good center now. Plus again... he is a Sweden and you have good experiences with Sweden plus full of his natives (Alfredsson, Karlsson, Rundblad, Lehner, Silfverberg, Petersson).

What you need for success:

1. a goalman.... Lehner
2. defense... Karlsson, Cowen, Rundblad
3. centers.... Spezza, Zibanejad

Murray was in Detroit, he was in Anaheim when they had in the final of SC, he coached Sens in final of SC... he knows what team needs. He knew why he get Anderson when we could draft higher... what is another bad things according many of us.

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11-19-2011, 02:17 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
Do you really think seeing GL play on three occasions allows you to be a good judge of what he can bring to the table? If so, pro scouts are doing wrong by spending all this money and time watching these kids play over and over again.
I've read this line so many times. This is a website dedicated to talking about hockey prospects (although it has grown into more). Nobody will have seen these guys as much as a professional scout, but if that becomes the prerequisite for posting about players, this forum will cease to exist.

If you're not happy with people commenting on players with limited viewings (or in many cases no viewings), this isn't the place for you.

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11-19-2011, 02:18 PM
  #434
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Yeah, I won't argue semantics as I'm not the one who called the trade a "failure". As for the good goaltending aspect of the trade, we need to know if acquiring Anderson in the deal increased the odds of signing him in the off-season, or if maybe it helped getting a discount. Honestly, I don't see much of a discount.

In summary, if you don't make the trade you can still end up with Ziba and Anderson in 2011 if that's what you want, but by finishing last (or closer to last) and trading your top pick for a lower one you end up with something extra.
You assume that our hot play to finish the year was purely the difference in goaltending, and that all other things would have been the same.

While I certainly think Anderson contributed to the strong finish, so did a lot of the call ups, and the very strong play of Spezza.

The team started the season a lot stronger that a last place team, fairly close to 500 hockey after 20 games if I recall, so it's not surprising that we moved up a bit.

I think we were really only in a position to finish last because we went through the stretch with out a number of our top players, we really were more of a 10-12th in the east quality team.

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11-19-2011, 02:19 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by N Bahn Ahden View Post
I've read this line so many times. This is a website dedicated to talking about hockey prospects (although it has grown into more). Nobody will have seen these guys as much as a professional scout, but if that becomes the prerequisite for posting about players, this forum will cease to exist.

If you're not happy with people commenting on players with limited viewings (or in many cases no viewings), this isn't the place for you.
Craig Button's seen most top 60 players 2-3 times so far this season for the draft.

3 viewings is 3 more than most people on here judge players with.

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11-19-2011, 02:21 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Craig Button's seen most top 60 players 2-3 times so far this season for the draft.

3 viewings is 3 more than most people on here judge players with.
You realize I'm defending you right?

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11-19-2011, 02:23 PM
  #437
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You realize I'm defending you right?
You aren't being argued with every time you are quoted. Should have made that clear myself.

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11-19-2011, 02:46 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
You assume that our hot play to finish the year was purely the difference in goaltending, and that all other things would have been the same.

While I certainly think Anderson contributed to the strong finish, so did a lot of the call ups, and the very strong play of Spezza.

The team started the season a lot stronger that a last place team, fairly close to 500 hockey after 20 games if I recall, so it's not surprising that we moved up a bit.

I think we were really only in a position to finish last because we went through the stretch with out a number of our top players, we really were more of a 10-12th in the east quality team.
I totally agree. For example, Fisher was totally lifeless last year (due to injury), and trading him probably also improved our team.

But if you do make the simplifying assumption that getting Anderson was the sole reason for the team's improvement (not saying that you should, but just thinking hypothetically), then I think I demonstrated that we would have been better off not making that trade, since we could have still ended up with Anderson and Ziba in 2011, along with something extra, like maybe a second round pick.

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11-19-2011, 02:49 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Yes? For Sens not for Colorado yes (Stastny, Duchene).

Great... you will have Landeskog--Spezza--xxx line and than? The second? Do you think Regin or Da Costa are so good as the second line centers in PO teams? Where is the certain you can draft a good center later when you have a good center now. Plus again... he is a Sweden and you have good experiences with Sweden plus full of his natives (Alfredsson, Karlsson, Rundblad, Lehner, Silfverberg, Petersson).

What you need for success:

1. a goalman.... Lehner
2. defense... Karlsson, Cowen, Rundblad
3. centers.... Spezza, Zibanejad

Murray was in Detroit, he was in Anaheim when they had in the final of SC, he coached Sens in final of SC... he knows what team needs. He knew why he get Anderson when we could draft higher... what is another bad things according many of us.
Well I'm of the belief that you draft the BPA, especially when that player fills a position of need. I'm not disagreeing with you because as I said earlier, a 2C is more important to a team. However, Lando's the better prospect and I believe BM and company would've taken him over MZ if they were presented with the opportunity as well.

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11-19-2011, 03:04 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by DrEasy View Post
I totally agree. For example, Fisher was totally lifeless last year (due to injury), and trading him probably also improved our team.

But if you do make the simplifying assumption that getting Anderson was the sole reason for the team's improvement (not saying that you should, but just thinking hypothetically), then I think I demonstrated that we would have been better off not making that trade, since we could have still ended up with Anderson and Ziba in 2011, along with something extra, like maybe a second round pick.
I think if you really want to go that route, the easiest comparable is to say we traded for advance rights to negotiate. The closest comparable in value then what was given for Bryzgalov; Matt Clackson, a third-round draft pick in 2012 and a conditional draft pick.

When comparing what it cost for advance negotiation rights for him, what we potentially gave up for Anderson (Potentially a higher draft pick, and Brian Elliot, who was not going to be resigned) then the trade being a failure really depends on how much you deem it affected our draft position. If it didn't, the trade was clearly a win, If it alone moved us from 2nd to 6th, then its clearly a loss.

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11-19-2011, 03:16 PM
  #441
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Well I'm of the belief that you draft the BPA, especially when that player fills a position of need. I'm not disagreeing with you because as I said earlier, a 2C is more important to a team. However, Lando's the better prospect and I believe BM and company would've taken him over MZ if they were presented with the opportunity as well.
I understand that you agree with idea but not players. But IMO Landeskog will be very good but not so great to prefer him over Zibanejad (Strome, Couturier) when the team needs a center. Over centers later... yes.

Btw who is BPA and BM?

T

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11-19-2011, 03:17 PM
  #442
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Filatov is a ****ing bum. I remember when Frankie Lessard took a run at him during training camp and everyone here was crying and whining about how Lessard was nothing but a but a big useless goon, and that he was not even worthy of god forbid throwing a hit on a player like Filatov, and blablabla. Everyone had Filatov pencilled on the 1st line, etc., and kept stroking his ****.

What a joke.

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11-19-2011, 03:18 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
I think if you really want to go that route, the easiest comparable is to say we traded for advance rights to negotiate. The closest comparable in value then what was given for Bryzgalov; Matt Clackson, a third-round draft pick in 2012 and a conditional draft pick.

When comparing what it cost for advance negotiation rights for him, what we potentially gave up for Anderson (Potentially a higher draft pick, and Brian Elliot, who was not going to be resigned) then the trade being a failure really depends on how much you deem it affected our draft position. If it didn't, the trade was clearly a win, If it alone moved us from 2nd to 6th, then its clearly a loss.
You refined my arguments perfectly.

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11-19-2011, 03:18 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I understand that you agree with idea but not players. But IMO Landeskog will be very good but not so great to prefer him over Zibanejad (Strome, Couturier) when the team needs a center. Over centers later... yes.

Btw who is BPA and BM?

T
BPA= Best player available
BM= Bryan Murray

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11-19-2011, 03:20 PM
  #445
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But to call the trade a "failure" because good goaltending and a bad lottery bounce made our pick slightly worse is exceptionally short-sighted.
a) it is in no way short sighted. Our long term interest was to rebuild and Anderson just provides some stability in nets for a time period where we arent expected to compete.

b) if you think 2nd to 6th is slightly worse, you have never paid attention to the NHL draft. Which players would you rather have.

2011 Gabriel Landeskog LW
2010 Tyler Seguin C
2009 Victor Hedman D
2008 Drew Doughty D
2007 James VanRiemsdyk
2006 Jordan Staal C
2005 Bobby Ryan RW
2004 Evgeny Malkin C
2003 Eric Staal C
2002 Kari Lehtonen G
2001 Jason Spezza C
2000 Dany Heatley

or....

2011 Mika Zibanejad C
2010 Brett Connolly RW
2009 Oliver Ekman Larsson D
2008 Nikita Filatov LW
2007 Sam Gagner RW
2006 Derick Brassard C
2005 Gilbert Brule C
2004 Al Montoya G
2003 Milan Michalek LW/RW
2002 Scott Upshall LW/RW
2001 Mikko Koivu
2000 Scott Hartnell

Its pretty easy to tell which players went 6th overall and which went 2nd overall.

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11-19-2011, 03:22 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
a) it is in no way short sighted. Our long term interest was to rebuild and Anderson just provides some stability in nets for a time period where we arent expected to compete.

b) if you think 2nd to 6th is slightly worse, you have never paid attention to the NHL draft. Which players would you rather have.

2011 Gabriel Landeskog LW
2010 Tyler Seguin C
2009 Victor Hedman D
2008 Drew Doughty D
2007 James VanRiemsdyk
2006 Jordan Staal C
2005 Bobby Ryan RW
2004 Evgeny Malkin C
2003 Eric Staal C
2002 Kari Lehtonen G
2001 Jason Spezza C
2000 Dany Heatley

or....

2011 Mika Zibanejad C
2010 Brett Connolly RW
2009 Oliver Ekman Larsson D
2008 Nikita Filatov LW
2007 Sam Gagner RW
2006 Derick Brassard C
2005 Gilbert Brule C
2004 Al Montoya G
2003 Milan Michalek LW/RW
2002 Scott Upshall LW/RW
2001 Mikko Koivu
2000 Scott Hartnell
1991 Peter Forsberg

Its pretty easy to tell which players went 6th overall and which went 2nd overall.
owned

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11-19-2011, 03:27 PM
  #447
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owned
Maybe in 1991.

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11-19-2011, 03:34 PM
  #448
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There was no guarantee we'd have placed 2nd last had we stayed with Elliott. Spezza coming back from injury alone was a big boost for a team that vaulted to the bottom of the league as soon as he went absent.

Losing the lottery was also a "chance" every team is subject to. So we actually finished 5th. The point still stands...just keeps us away from comparing 2nd overalls to 6th overalls where three of them were picked by Columbus.

Any GM that went through this thought process to justify not making the Elliott for Anderson swap shouldn't have a job. It's all too simple in hindsight.


Last edited by Minister of Offence: 11-19-2011 at 03:42 PM.
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11-19-2011, 03:38 PM
  #449
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Filatov is a ****ing bum. I remember when Frankie Lessard took a run at him during training camp and everyone here was crying and whining about how Lessard was nothing but a but a big useless goon, and that he was not even worthy of god forbid throwing a hit on a player like Filatov, and blablabla. Everyone had Filatov pencilled on the 1st line, etc., and kept stroking his ****.

What a joke.
I don't care if it was Filatov, Alfredsson, or Corey Cowick. Lessard IS a thug, and the hit was unnecessary, dangerous, and showed a clear lack of brains on Lessard's part. You don't pull off goon tactics and injure players on your own team. Period.

Francis Lessard can GTFO of our organization, for all I care. Waste of a contract.

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11-19-2011, 03:47 PM
  #450
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I don't care if it was Filatov, Alfredsson, or Corey Cowick. Lessard IS a thug, and the hit was unnecessary, dangerous, and showed a clear lack of brains on Lessard's part. You don't pull off goon tactics and injure players on your own team. Period.

Francis Lessard can GTFO of our organization, for all I care. Waste of a contract.
can you report him for me?

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