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Old
12-01-2011, 12:34 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
Everybody put their helmets on and stand by. This could get entertaining.
Probably won't, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts he doesn't even respond...

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12-01-2011, 12:38 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Why does everyone think that Parise would be able to score with LA? What makes him different from all of the other wingers that have played for Murray?

He's not exactly lighting it up for NJ since his injury.
Every time this comes up, someone asks you,

WHO has produced more being out from Murray, and you NEVER answer the question.

As it stands now, Moulson, and Purcell, and Purcell is dangerously close to being non-relative in Tampa, and Moulson started off with a monster slump this season, apparently Murray's powers to cause slumps jumps state borders, interesting.

Boyle is again a non-factor in NY.

But in L.A, you have Kopitar, Brown, Williams, Smyth, and Richards who have produced in Murray's offensively offensive system,

But yea, it's the system, not the players, no really, it is.

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12-01-2011, 12:58 PM
  #428
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Probably won't, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts he doesn't even respond...
probably cause no one here takes you seriously.
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Every time this comes up, someone asks you,

WHO has produced more being out from Murray, and you NEVER answer the question.

As it stands now, Moulson, and Purcell, and Purcell is dangerously close to being non-relative in Tampa, and Moulson started off with a monster slump this season, apparently Murray's powers to cause slumps jumps state borders, interesting.

Boyle is again a non-factor in NY.

But in L.A, you have Kopitar, Brown, Williams, Smyth, and Richards who have produced in Murray's offensively offensive system,

But yea, it's the system, not the players, no really, it is.
guess i'll entertain you,
Moulson still on pace for 30 goals
Purcell has the same amount of points as Brown and 1 less than gagne.
ponikarvosky has more goals now than he did all of last yera
smyth would be our top leading goal scorer and is on a much higher pace than the 20+ goals he had here.

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12-01-2011, 01:06 PM
  #429
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Just to play devil's advocate, what about Patrick O'Sullivan, Alexander Frolov, and Randy Jones? Wayne Simmonds and Michal Handzus are playing on top offensive squads and on pace for worse numbers this year.

It's a give and take thing that happens to every team. The Red Wings lost Kyle Quincey to us on waivers and I think they're fine. Just the nature of the league.

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12-01-2011, 01:24 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
probably cause no one here takes you seriously.


guess i'll entertain you,
Moulson still on pace for 30 goals
Purcell has the same amount of points as Brown and 1 less than gagne.
ponikarvosky has more goals now than he did all of last yera
smyth would be our top leading goal scorer and is on a much higher pace than the 20+ goals he had here.
And I said Moulson.

So, Purcell is on pace for the same amount of points as Brown, and 1 less than Gagne, playing in a supposedly much better offensive system? Tell me how that says Murray's system doesn't work again, please?

Ponikarovsky is playing more minutes I believe, and more ice time, and isn't relegated to a healthy scratch or 4th line duty, I would have been shocked if he hadn't scored more than 5 goals,

Everyone had pointed this out as well, Smyth always starts strong, and limps in the end,

If he keeps this up at the end of the year, great for him, he was still producing in Murray's system that people are saying is a detriment to offense.

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12-01-2011, 01:43 PM
  #431
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So the Devils get Ryan for a UFA Parise? That's a huge return for a rental don't you think? ....
Yes. I agree. I am a dolt. I should have proposed it with a signed 3-5 year deal.

Frankly, I'd rather have Ryan but I don't think he's going to remain in the West (without a really, really good deal from any team not named "Kings") even IF he is traded. That was the thinking of shipping him with some assets to NJ in the exchange. FWIW, I think Parise would shine on the Kings. Maybe a two year signed and served? Just to give Toffoli some more development....

Anyway, it's idle speculation since none of it's going to happen. Well, maybe we can spend this summer worrying about Parise instead of Kovalchuk and Richards. I can see it now.... "Parise in Paradise?" "Zoolander Zach!"

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12-01-2011, 01:53 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Just to play devil's advocate, what about Patrick O'Sullivan, Alexander Frolov, and Randy Jones? Wayne Simmonds and Michal Handzus are playing on top offensive squads and on pace for worse numbers this year.

It's a give and take thing that happens to every team. The Red Wings lost Kyle Quincey to us on waivers and I think they're fine. Just the nature of the league.
Nah, I'm pretty sure that each and every player who has had a decrease in production can be traced back to Terry Murray's coaching in one way or another. Something like 6 degrees of freedom or like that Kevin Bacon movie game. So and so sucks now, but wait he plays on the same team as so and so, who once played on the same team as so and so who was coached in LA by Terry Murray for one season. There 'ya go.

Conversely every player that has been able to get away from TM's influence has increased their production.

I can't explain Doughty's 2nd season or the current success that Mike Richards is having.

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12-01-2011, 02:06 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
...I can't explain Doughty's 2nd season or the current success that Mike Richards is having.
(nicely stated!)


There's plenty of time for them to become discouraged by the system.

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12-01-2011, 04:00 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Lars H View Post
Eh. My comment was in response to your assertion that improved scoring from Kings' centers relative to Kings' wings was due to Murray's system allowing "centers more freedom." Which is clearly not the case.

Carry on.
They have more freedom in the sense that they can skate through the slot more often. They don't have to be glued to the boards to recover pucks and get plays to the points. They still setup too high in the slot, usually above the circles, but Kopitar and Richards have the added benefit of being extremely talented hockey players and can anticipate the plays better than Lewis, Fraser and Stoll (the other centers).

The centers do have to cover more ice since they are the support players in the defensive zone, but that doesn't mean that they have less freedom on attack.

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12-01-2011, 04:15 PM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Nah, I'm pretty sure that each and every player who has had a decrease in production can be traced back to Terry Murray's coaching in one way or another. Something like 6 degrees of freedom or like that Kevin Bacon movie game. So and so sucks now, but wait he plays on the same team as so and so, who once played on the same team as so and so who was coached in LA by Terry Murray for one season. There 'ya go.

Conversely every player that has been able to get away from TM's influence has increased their production.

I can't explain Doughty's 2nd season or the current success that Mike Richards is having.
You really don't think that those 2 players aren't a little bit above the talent level of the bottom six?

That has been the biggest issue with Murray and his system, the bottom six don't get enough scoring chances to capitalize. Richards, Gagne and Kopitar have the talent to score with fewer chances. Williams and Brown have their scoring streaks, but Moreau, Hunter, Stoll, Clifford, Richardson, Lewis, Westgarth, etc. need more chances to get their limited number of goals. More chances are needed to get that extra goal per game the Kings need to win consistently. There is a reason that Murray says the NHL is a race to "3". He knows where they need to be, but doesn't seem to be able to get there.

I've never said that every player’s problems and success are all because of Murray, but when the roster has been almost completely re-shuffled in 4 years and there is zero improvement (actually a slight decrease). Then you have to start looking at other areas to improve. So far, Murray hasn't been willing to change.

Most coaches have a 3-4 year shelf life; it's not something new in the NHL. Do you really want 2 more years of fighting for the 8th seed and limited playoff success? 25th in offense equals exactly that.

It's not just X's and O's, but since we aren't in the locker room, we don't know how Murray is at getting the team motivated to play their best every night. I don't think he does much because he loves to say that he doesn't motivate players because they are professionals, but I don't believe him.


What are you seeing in Murray that tells you the Kings will become a top 10 offense before the season ends? We know they will win enough to get in the playoffs, unless they are hit with massive injuires, but will they really be contenders?

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Old
12-01-2011, 04:49 PM
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Just to play devil's advocate, what about Patrick O'Sullivan, Alexander Frolov, and Randy Jones? Wayne Simmonds and Michal Handzus are playing on top offensive squads and on pace for worse numbers this year.

It's a give and take thing that happens to every team. The Red Wings lost Kyle Quincey to us on waivers and I think they're fine. Just the nature of the league.
Well you are making a good point here.

But i think all of us Murray critics are not talking about the bottom 6.
It doesn't matter a 3rd or 4th line player jumps or decreases by 2 goals per season.
The job of a top 6 winger is simply to score goals.
If this habbit constantly decreases by whoever is brought in here,
you have to look at the coach and the system.

The 2nd thing is, there is no such thing like winning without risk.
I don't know a single NHl team who is doing the little things wrong.
To point out we did the little things right is like a slap into the fans face.

The Stanley cup winning teams had always one thing in comon.
The ability to control a game. To shift increase speed agressive play and scoring chances if needed.

The Kings just react to the opponents and this is leading nowhere.
Maybe this is a mayor point that should be discussed

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12-01-2011, 06:20 PM
  #437
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I don't know a single NHl team who is doing the little things wrong. To point out we did the little things right is like a slap into the fans face.
It's kind of a glass half full / half empty argument... from where I watch, most NHL teams don't do the little things correctly or consistently and that's why they do great in soft regular season games but not so great in the tough games. The elite NHL teams do all those things game in, game out, it doesn't matter whether it's regular season, preseason, postseason, finals, or Winter Classic, it doesn't matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
The Stanley cup winning teams had always one thing in common. The ability to control a game. To shift increase speed aggressive play and scoring chances if needed. The Kings just react to the opponents and this is leading nowhere. Maybe this is a major point that should be discussed
Now, THIS, I agree with. Elite teams control tempo, looks, and attacks. They play within their systems and the adjust on the fly to confuse the opponent or to force the opponent into their game. Absolutely. And the Kings definitely need to learn this and to make it instinctual and habitual.

But that's not about Murray and the system or Lombardi and his kind of players. It is all about the players buying in and playing all out within the system..... working it in the way you describe. Like an elite team.

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12-01-2011, 07:53 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
(nicely stated!)


There's plenty of time for them to become discouraged by the system.
Murray is in the process of crushing Richards' soul as we type.

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12-02-2011, 09:29 AM
  #439
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Yes. I agree. I am a dolt. I should have proposed it with a signed 3-5 year deal.

Frankly, I'd rather have Ryan but I don't think he's going to remain in the West (without a really, really good deal from any team not named "Kings") even IF he is traded. That was the thinking of shipping him with some assets to NJ in the exchange. FWIW, I think Parise would shine on the Kings. Maybe a two year signed and served? Just to give Toffoli some more development....

Anyway, it's idle speculation since none of it's going to happen. Well, maybe we can spend this summer worrying about Parise instead of Kovalchuk and Richards. I can see it now.... "Parise in Paradise?" "Zoolander Zach!"
I think Parise would be the best fit of any major free agent ever linked to LA during the DL years, but I can't see him signing for just two years. Most of the time, big names like that sign 5 or more year deals.

Not that I'd be opposed to that.

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12-02-2011, 10:40 AM
  #440
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Well you are making a good point here.

But i think all of us Murray critics are not talking about the bottom 6.
It doesn't matter a 3rd or 4th line player jumps or decreases by 2 goals per season.
The job of a top 6 winger is simply to score goals.
And to do that, it's not as simple, they have to create turnovers, create mismatches, and create opportunities, goals simmply do not happen in a vacuum.

If this habbit constantly decreases by whoever is brought in here,
you have to look at the coach and the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
The 2nd thing is, there is no such thing like winning without risk.
I don't know a single NHl team who is doing the little things wrong.
To point out we did the little things right is like a slap into the fans face.
You know when Boston was 2-10 in October, they weren't doing the little things right, when Detroit was 3-10 in October, or whatever they were, they weren't doing the little things right, you absolutely point out to a team when they are doing the little things right, as by doing the little things right, it does lead to wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
The Stanley cup winning teams had always one thing in comon.
The ability to control a game. To shift increase speed agressive play and scoring chances if needed.

The Kings just react to the opponents and this is leading nowhere.
Maybe this is a mayor point that should be discussed
And you are absolutely right at this point, but the past few games, the Kings are dictating the play.

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12-02-2011, 12:02 PM
  #441
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Oh man just like Kovy and Richards. I wish Parise would sign an extension or get traded already just so people will quit speculating.

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12-04-2011, 04:51 PM
  #442
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How has Kovy's stock gone down so much so quickly? He was one of the best if not the best at his position not too long ago. Now, he's become somewhat of a defensive liability. He leads the team in +/- with a minus 11 (Parise isn't too far behind with a minus 10). I still think the guy can score more than what he's shown in NJ.

I feel for the Devils' fans with Kovy's long term contract and Parise's pending FA status.

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12-04-2011, 05:49 PM
  #443
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How has Kovy's stock gone down so much so quickly? He was one of the best if not the best at his position not too long ago. Now, he's become somewhat of a defensive liability. He leads the team in +/- with a minus 11 (Parise isn't too far behind with a minus 10). I still think the guy can score more than what he's shown in NJ.

I feel for the Devils' fans with Kovy's long term contract and Parise's pending FA status.
People have always said it about Kovalchuk. Ovechkin included. He is incredibly 1 dimensional.

I remember the quote from Ovechkin saying that Kovy was notorious for standing in the slot and waiting for one timers, and cherry picking the opposing blue line or the red line when his team is in the defensive zone. The new NHL isn't played at one end of the ice. Kovalchuk plays only one side of the puck basically.

The Sedins are the same way. Fortunately for them they score enough goals and are on a team with a good enough defense/goaltending that it doesn't show in +/-

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12-04-2011, 09:35 PM
  #444
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Dux: JJ, Penner & 1st
Kings: Ryan and DSP

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12-04-2011, 09:46 PM
  #445
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Call me crazy, but I'd rather have Jack Johnson.

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12-04-2011, 09:46 PM
  #446
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Dux: JJ, Penner & 1st
Kings: Ryan and DSP
i'd rather keep JJ and the 1st honestly.

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12-04-2011, 09:47 PM
  #447
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Great minds Ziggy.... haha

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12-04-2011, 09:56 PM
  #448
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We're seriously lacking a top line winger and Ryan would fulfill our need there. Adding DSP would fill the void left by Simmer.

Yeah, I don't want to part with JJ either but to get a guy like Ryan...

Besides, adding 2 RWs in Ryan and DSP, would free up Brownie to move back to LW.

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12-04-2011, 10:12 PM
  #449
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>>I feel for the Devils' fans with Kovy's long term contract and Parise's pending FA status

I don't. Many of them were gloating at the time they got him.

Warning pattin myself on the back: The whole time, I was saying you cant put all your eggs in one basket in today's NHL. So we shouldnt go after Kovy. Noone is worth destroying your cap situation and that includes leaving room to make moves

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12-04-2011, 10:16 PM
  #450
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We're seriously lacking a top line winger and Ryan would fulfill our need there. Adding DSP would fill the void left by Simmer.

Yeah, I don't want to part with JJ either but to get a guy like Ryan...

Besides, adding 2 RWs in Ryan and DSP, would free up Brownie to move back to LW.
It wouldn't even be the best offer the Ducks receive, they may not even Value Jack like we do. The Ducks need an Elite Shut down guy, they have plenty of puck movers.

It's a Stretch that they would trade him to a West team. But No GM in their right mind would trade a Player of Ryan's caliber; to a Division opponent (so he can murder them for years to come).

That's insane.


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