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Potvin vs Lidstrom

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Old
11-16-2011, 03:26 PM
  #1
tarheelhockey
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Potvin vs Lidstrom

Thought this would be an interesting spin-off debate from the Top 60 thread.

Lidstrom placed #5 on the list. By all indications, Potvin will comfortably place #6. We didn't really discuss these guys head-to-head during the first round of voting, largely because Lidstrom was being compared to the 3 players immediately ahead of him.

So, is there a good argument to put Potvin at the #5 spot? Is this more of a tie? Is Lidstrom in fact clearly ahead of Potvin? What do you guys think?

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11-16-2011, 04:20 PM
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Fred Taylor
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At their peaks Potvin was a better player. Analyzing they're entire careers it's now very hard to place Potvin above Lidstrom, as much as I loved him as a player.

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11-16-2011, 04:46 PM
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I'm one of the few who puts Potvin ahead of Lidstrom.I just value peak & prime more than the average and I feel Potvin's highest level was considerably higher than any level Lidstrom ever reached.I think he was better offensively , infinitely better at the physical game , was psychologically tougher to face due to his nastiness and physical play and was definitely a better leader.Lidstrom is/was better defensively , but at his best Potvin was a much better all around player than Lidstrom.

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11-16-2011, 05:09 PM
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I don't see how anyone could rank Potvin ahead of Lidstrom. Unless they were simply huge fans of Potvin. Only thing Potvin has over Lidstom is offense but even then, after you factor in the scoring between the two eras its really not that much. Combined with the much better overall career its not even close.

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11-16-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
I don't see how anyone could rank Potvin ahead of Lidstrom. Unless they were simply huge fans of Potvin. Only thing Potvin has over Lidstom is offense but even then, after you factor in the scoring between the two eras its really not that much. Combined with the much better overall career its not even close.
Potvin has better offense , leadership and physical play , which are all important part of a n1 defense's job.

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11-16-2011, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Potvin has better offense , leadership and physical play , which are all important part of a n1 defense's job.

Leadership?

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11-16-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Potvin has better offense...
He wasn't a PPG defenseman until Trottier arrived. Coincidence? Nope. Oh, and having Bossy as a teammate didn't hurt, either. Yeah, being the teammate of two of the Top-30 forwards of all-time might have something to do with Potvin's point totals. Just a tad.

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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
...leadership
Subjective.

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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
...and physical play...
Not required to be an effective defenseman.

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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
...which are all important part of a n1 defense's job.
No they aren't. Logging the most minutes and keeping the other team, particularly their stars, from putting the puck in your net, whetever method that may be, is a No. 1 defenseman's main duties. Everything else is a bonus.

BTW, Lidstrom appears in just about everyone's Top-5 Dmen Of All-Time lists. Can't say that about Potvin. You're alone on this one, buddy.

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11-16-2011, 05:44 PM
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Well Jimmy Develano can't give a definitive answer on who was better, and I think he would be about the best person to ask.

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11-16-2011, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Well Jimmy Develano can't give a definitive answer on who was better, and I think he would be about the best person to ask.
I'm sure that has more to do with him trying to remain neutral on the subject out of respect for the two players he was involved with.

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11-16-2011, 05:55 PM
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Count me among those who believe Potvin was better at his absolute peak, but at this point Lidstrom's career is easy to rank higher all time.

Potvin, like many players starting out when he did, for some reason didn't have great longevity. He was really something else in his prime though. 100 point defenseman who was as physically intimidating as say a guy like Scott Stevens was more recently. Quite a combination.

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11-16-2011, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lolwut View Post
I don't see how anyone could rank Potvin ahead of Lidstrom. Unless they were simply huge fans of Potvin. Only thing Potvin has over Lidstom is offense but even then, after you factor in the scoring between the two eras its really not that much. Combined with the much better overall career its not even close.
Actually if you adjust the stats to compare Potvin has the top 3 with seasons of 86,85,85, 67 and 66 with 35 points in a 31 game injured season.

Lidstrom has seasons of 79,77,76,75 and 69 so yes the difference really isn't as great as suggested by raw stats.

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11-16-2011, 08:04 PM
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Ed Wood
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I'm one of the few who puts Potvin ahead of Lidstrom.I just value peak & prime more than the average and I feel Potvin's highest level was considerably higher than any level Lidstrom ever reached.I think he was better offensively , infinitely better at the physical game , was psychologically tougher to face due to his nastiness and physical play and was definitely a better leader.Lidstrom is/was better defensively , but at his best Potvin was a much better all around player than Lidstrom.
I agree 100% with these comments. Not that it really contributes to this debate but I want to add that Denis Potvin was, by far, the finest Junior hockey player that I have ever seen.


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Old
11-16-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Actually if you adjust the stats to compare Potvin has the top 3 with seasons of 86,85,85, 67 and 66 with 35 points in a 31 game injured season.

Lidstrom has seasons of 79,77,76,75 and 69 so yes the difference really isn't as great as suggested by raw stats.
And you have to adjust Potvin 6% more downward if you want to account for the changing role in defensemen between eras (assuming I read matnor's data right from the other thread)

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11-16-2011, 09:13 PM
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He wasn't a PPG defenseman until Trottier arrived. Coincidence? Nope. Oh, and having Bossy as a teammate didn't hurt, either. Yeah, being the teammate of two of the Top-30 forwards of all-time might have something to do with Potvin's point totals. Just a tad.
...and neither did having Yzerman, Fedorov, Coffey, Murphy, Shanahan, Hull, Larionov, Fetisov, Datsyuk ect ect ect ect ect ect.

Like, are you seriously bringing up teammates and team strength as a point in Lidstrom's favour over Potvin....you're kidding right?



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And you have to adjust Potvin 6% more downward if you want to account for the changing role in defensemen between eras (assuming I read matnor's data right from the other thread)
Exactly and context as well, Potvin was 11th in league scoring in 75/76, 5th in 77/78 and 7th in 78/79.
Going by last years totals that makes those finishes 76 points, 91 points and 85 point respectively.
Adjusted or raw, Lidstrom has never finished in the top 10 for the league or even close to it and if his adjusted stats puts him in that range, then they are obviously incorrect by fair degree.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I doubt I would be askance if I said Lidstrom has never even finished in the top 20.
Context folks.


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Old
11-16-2011, 10:29 PM
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Potvin at his best is the best defenseman of the post-Orr era.

Now he came along at a time where for some reason that players careers didn't last as long for some reason.

Longevity definitely moves Bourque ahead, Lidstrom is real close at this point.

I prefer Potvin, but can certainly understand an argument for Lidstrom.

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11-17-2011, 01:41 AM
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My favorite player all-time is Potvin. Think Stevens but a much more complete player. A bull on the ice and an extremely physical player. I do think he suffered the same faith as e.g. Forsberg that the style he played ultimately broke him down. With that said I think Lidstrom overtook him last season by a fair margin. Its hard comparing players over eras and Lidstroms hardware and stats are that good.

But if I was a GM and had to choose a franchise d-man (not named Orr) I would pick Potvin


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Old
11-17-2011, 02:13 AM
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...and neither did having Yzerman, Fedorov, Coffey, Murphy, Shanahan, Hull, Larionov, Fetisov, Datsyuk ect ect ect ect ect ect.

Like, are you seriously bringing up teammates and team strength as a point in Lidstrom's favour over Potvin....you're kidding right?
Name just TWO players in that bunch who are considered as great and point-productive as Bossy and Trottier were in the NHL. Just 2. I'll give you the obvious head start: Yzerman (which is a stretch itself since Lidstrom had only two monster seasons of Steve's to benefit from) and..............

Don't even bother reaching for an age 37-40 Hull. The former three-time 70+ goal scorer wan't even sort-of a PPG player while with Red Wing.

Fetisov? A guy who scored more than 29 pts. in a season only twice in a 9-year NHL career, maxing out at 42 pts. on both occasions?

A past-his-prime Coffey who, despite his '95 Norris, was producing at a rate faaaaaaar below what he was doing in Edmonton an Pittsburgh and still nothing in the vicinity of what prime Bossy and Trottier were doing?

Shanahan? A guy who was a PPG player a whopping TWICE in his 9 seasons in Detroit, never topping 87 pts.?

Murphy? Really? Who was 35-40 while in Motown and, like Coffey, was producing at a rate light years below his prime?

Datsyuk, while a very good player, hasn't even matched the greatness of Fedorov, whose own pair of 100+ pt. campaigns pale in comparison to all that Bossy and Trottier achieved?

Got anyone else?

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11-17-2011, 02:44 AM
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I'm not saying Isles were carried by three men, but Wings had arguably more depth.

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11-17-2011, 02:45 AM
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Name just TWO players in that bunch who are considered as great and point-productive as Bossy and Trottier were in the NHL. Just 2. I'll give you the obvious head start: Yzerman (which is a stretch itself since Lidstrom had only two monster seasons of Steve's to benefit from) and..............

Don't even bother reaching for an age 37-40 Hull. The former three-time 70+ goal scorer wan't even sort-of a PPG player while with Red Wing.

Fetisov? A guy who scored more than 29 pts. in a season only twice in a 9-year NHL career, maxing out at 42 pts. on both occasions?

A past-his-prime Coffey who, despite his '95 Norris, was producing at a rate faaaaaaar below what he was doing in Edmonton an Pittsburgh and still nothing in the vicinity of what prime Bossy and Trottier were doing?

Shanahan? A guy who was a PPG player a whopping TWICE in his 9 seasons in Detroit, never topping 87 pts.?

Murphy? Really? Who was 35-40 while in Motown and, like Coffey, was producing at a rate light years below his prime?

Datsyuk, while a very good player, hasn't even matched the greatness of Fedorov, whose own pair of 100+ pt. campaigns pale in comparison to all that Bossy and Trottier achieved?

Got anyone else?
Have you tried to consider the fact that in 1976 and 1977, Potvin outscored Trottier? Or the year before he was a runner up for the norris and neither of those two were in the league.

Lidstrom was in the league during 2 of yzerman's big years and both of federov's monster seasons, yet he was nowhere near them offensively.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg had big years in 08, they outscored lids by a big chunk.

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11-17-2011, 02:51 AM
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I'm not saying Isles were carried by three men, but Wings had arguably more depth.
The Islanders were deeper than given credit for, it's just that the three-headed monster of Bossy-Trottier-Potvin was so amazing that everyone else looked like **** by comparison.

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Old
11-17-2011, 03:19 AM
  #21
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Thanks to his physical play I put Potvin ahead of Bourque never mind Lidstrom certainly at peak....As the saying goes if I had one game to win................

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11-17-2011, 04:13 AM
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Lidstrom's peak is criminally underrated. Nick is rapidly approaching 42, not nearly as spry/mobile as he was 10 years ago, and still a focal point of the "who is the best defenseman in the league?" debate. Everyone likes to attribute this to "oh the competition is meh" whereas it really should open some eyes up to how mind-bogglingly good Lidstrom was for most of his career. In '02 Bowman referred to him as as near as perfect as you can get (or something to that effect, I'm not going to bother looking that quote up again).

Potvin may have been more visually impressive, but that doesn't make him more effective. Sure Nick wasn't a bruiser but I looked up a bunch of quotes from the likes of Crosby, Nash, Kane, Iginla where they all say that playing against a defenseman like Lidstrom is more frustrating than playing against a bruiser and that they'd rather have a guy engage physically than just take the puck away and make you chase the transition game.

Potvin wins the style points competition in a landslide. I'll give him that.



Here's hoping that massive error went unnoticed for 7 hours...


Last edited by norrisnick: 11-17-2011 at 11:51 AM.
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Old
11-17-2011, 05:22 AM
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Name just TWO players in that bunch who are considered as great and point-productive as Bossy and Trottier were in the NHL. Just 2. I'll give you the obvious head start: Yzerman (which is a stretch itself since Lidstrom had only two monster seasons of Steve's to benefit from) and..............

Don't even bother reaching for an age 37-40 Hull. The former three-time 70+ goal scorer wan't even sort-of a PPG player while with Red Wing.

Fetisov? A guy who scored more than 29 pts. in a season only twice in a 9-year NHL career, maxing out at 42 pts. on both occasions?

A past-his-prime Coffey who, despite his '95 Norris, was producing at a rate faaaaaaar below what he was doing in Edmonton an Pittsburgh and still nothing in the vicinity of what prime Bossy and Trottier were doing?

Shanahan? A guy who was a PPG player a whopping TWICE in his 9 seasons in Detroit, never topping 87 pts.?

Murphy? Really? Who was 35-40 while in Motown and, like Coffey, was producing at a rate light years below his prime?

Datsyuk, while a very good player, hasn't even matched the greatness of Fedorov, whose own pair of 100+ pt. campaigns pale in comparison to all that Bossy and Trottier achieved?

Got anyone else?
Just stop dude, it's a ridiculous argument to ever use teammates and team strength to propel Lidstrom above anyone period!
You can try and break down each individual player all you want but the FACT remains that at any given time, Lidstrom had anywhere from 4-10 of these players on his team at the same time and D partners....it's not even remotely close.

I mentioned this kind of crap in the other thread, how more than a few Lidstrom supporters will attack other greats because of their teams on Lidstrom's behalf but mention his teams and it's all outrage and excuses.



Reap what you sow and the pot calling the kettle black all over again.

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11-17-2011, 09:26 AM
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He wasn't a PPG defenseman until Trottier arrived. Coincidence? Nope. Oh, and having Bossy as a teammate didn't hurt, either. Yeah, being the teammate of two of the Top-30 forwards of all-time might have something to do with Potvin's point totals. Just a tad.



Subjective.



Not required to be an effective defenseman.



No they aren't. Logging the most minutes and keeping the other team, particularly their stars, from putting the puck in your net, whetever method that may be, is a No. 1 defenseman's main duties. Everything else is a bonus.

BTW, Lidstrom appears in just about everyone's Top-5 Dmen Of All-Time lists. Can't say that about Potvin. You're alone on this one, buddy.
Actually, no he's not.

To me Potvin was clearly the better player.

Lidstrom had the better career.

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11-17-2011, 09:31 AM
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Have you tried to consider the fact that in 1976 and 1977, Potvin outscored Trottier? Or the year before he was a runner up for the norris and neither of those two were in the league.

Lidstrom was in the league during 2 of yzerman's big years and both of federov's monster seasons, yet he was nowhere near them offensively.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg had big years in 08, they outscored lids by a big chunk.
Consider Potvin came into the NHL right out of junior, rare for a defenseman. Then consider he led his team in scoring for the next 4 seasons while aslo being the teams top defender.

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