HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Dynasties Cornerstones

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-18-2011, 01:49 AM
  #1
BenchBrawl
joueur de hockey
 
BenchBrawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,236
vCash: 50
Dynasties Cornerstones

Name the cornerstone of each dynasties.Only 1 player.

You can also include mini-dynasties.

BenchBrawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 06:02 AM
  #2
MessierThanThou
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Oil Country
Posts: 134
vCash: 500
Islanders: Mike Bossy. Three consecutive 17 goal playoff seasons. Definitely not Clark Gilles, who has to be the absolute worst HOF'er to play in the post-expansion era and only in there because these journalists don't like giving Bossy, Trottier and Potvin the full credit that they deserve.

Oilers: Mark Messier, because he was there for all five.

Red Wings: Nicklas Lidstrom.

MessierThanThou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 06:33 AM
  #3
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,011
vCash: 500
minidynasties of dpe:
Devils - Scott Stevens
Colorado - Patrick Roy

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 06:44 AM
  #4
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,377
vCash: 500
50's Habs: Harvey
50's Wings: Howe
60's Habs: Beliveau
60's Leafs: Not sure
70's Bruins: Orr
70's Flyers: Clarke
70's Habs: Dryden
80's Isles: Potvin
80's Oilers: Gretzky
90's Pens: Mario
90's Wings: Yzerman
00's Wings: Lidstrom
90's/00 Devils: Stevens
90's Avs: Roy
90's Stars: Belfour

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 08:00 AM
  #5
JaymzB
Registered User
 
JaymzB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 2,551
vCash: 500
I think the 60’s Leafs might be the one dynasty since the 40’s where there isn’t really a “cornerstone”. Maybe Bower has the best arguement?

JaymzB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 10:00 AM
  #6
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
I think the 60’s Leafs might be the one dynasty since the 40’s where there isn’t really a “cornerstone”. Maybe Bower has the best arguement?
I would say Carl Brewer or Bower but they had Keon too.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 10:13 AM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
I think the 60’s Leafs might be the one dynasty since the 40’s where there isn’t really a “cornerstone”. Maybe Bower has the best arguement?
I would pick Tim Horton. He was their top defensemen and often the main reason they beat Detroit in the playoffs (because of his ability to match up with Gordie Howe).

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 10:20 AM
  #8
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would pick Tim Horton. He was their top defensemen and often the main reason they beat Detroit in the playoffs (because of his ability to match up with Gordie Howe).
Just by coincidence I was watching my legends of hockey dvd last night and the episode with Tim Horton in particular.

Bower says that Tim made his job much easier because he was such a good defender and had almost superhuman strength.

He made a comment that Tim could probably pick up a 40 gallon drum of oil he was so strong.

Keon said that Tim had weights he lifted at his home that Keon couldn't pick up and could only roll..

Pronovost (I think it was.. might have been Alex Delvecchio I forget) said that when Tim pinned you in a corner he'd just say to you "Don't you go anywhere" and you couldn't hahaha

Something else that Tim Horton.

BraveCanadian is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 10:32 AM
  #9
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
50's Habs: Harvey
50's Wings: Howe
60's Habs: Beliveau
60's Leafs: Not sure
70's Bruins: Orr
70's Flyers: Clarke
70's Habs: Dryden
80's Isles: Potvin
80's Oilers: Gretzky
90's Pens: Mario
90's Wings: Yzerman
00's Wings: Lidstrom
90's/00 Devils: Stevens
90's Avs: Roy
90's Stars: Belfour
i wonder what exactly we mean when we say cornerstone. if we mean best or most important on-ice player, then definitely harvey applies, and probably roy and belfour too. but i think if we mean the guy who everyone in the room looked to as a constant and the guy who would put the team on his back if need be, and also the guy the entire team is built around and that their game revolves around, then that might be plante on the 50s habs, sakic on the 90s avs.

90s wings, i think a good argument can be made that fedorov was the guy.

70s habs, i don't think any argument can be made that lafleur wasn't the guy.

not sure why the 90s stars are on any list of dynasties or mini-dynasties, but in that other definition of cornerstone, i think it would be modano.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 11:04 AM
  #10
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,322
vCash: 500
The literal definition of a cornerstone is the first piece set in place, which in itself is important.

Patrick Roy, as an example of someone brought up in the thread, is almost the polar opposite of that.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the term doesn't really apply to the 1955-1979 Canadiens, because they just had this endless fountain of superstars that just kept coming.

On the other hand:

40s Leafs - Broda, with Apps also being an acceptable answer.
50s Red Wings - Ted Lindsay
60s Leafs - George Armstrong
70s Flyers - Bobby Clarke (not much of a choice really)
80s Islanders - Denis Potvin
80s Oilers - Gretzky (was already on the team in the WHA)
90s Penguins - Mario (duh)
90s Devils - Martin Brodeur
90s Avalanche - Joe Sakic
90s Red Wings - Steve Yserman

Johnny Engine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 11:50 AM
  #11
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would pick Tim Horton. He was their top defensemen and often the main reason they beat Detroit in the playoffs (because of his ability to match up with Gordie Howe).
Can't believe I forgot about Horton...

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 02:40 PM
  #12
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,696
vCash: 500
1940s Leafs - Broda for sure
1950s Wings - Howe
1950s Habs - Beliveau
1960s Leafs - Horton
1960s Habs - Beliveau (the only player who was the premier player on two dynasties)
1970s Bruins - Orr
1970s Flyers - Parent (sorry Clarke, but two Conn Smythes tell the tale)
1970s Habs - Lafleur (make a case that he wasn't)
1980s Isles - Potvin (always a hot debate between the three big ones and even Smith is a tier below)
1980s Oilers - Gretzky (did so much in the 4 Cups that he didn't need to be in the 5th)
1990s Pens - Lemieux
1990s/2000s Devils - Stevens (maybe some like Brodeur, but Stevens for sure for me)
1990s/2000s Avs - Sakic (Roy is very close, but Sakic was amazing in 1996 and could have won the Smythe again in 2001)
1990s Wings - Yzerman

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 03:50 PM
  #13
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Can't believe I forgot about Horton...
I can. When I recently opened a new topic and posted a link to an interesting retrospective on Horton plus a few of my own comments about him, not a single person on this board commented on it. I think he is underestimated and underappreciated, particularly given his longevity as a fine defenceman. He had all-star team selections 15 years apart. He was a rock on the Leafs blueline and it looked like he'd last forever.

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 04:22 PM
  #14
Peter9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
Limiting this to the dynasty teams:

1940s Leafs - Kennedy (a character player who went from a fine performer to a superstar at playoff time--without him, no dynasty for the Leafs.
1950s Wings - Kelly (a great performer and character player who took charge and played an all-round game)
1950s Canadiens - Harvey (the linchpin, he controlled the game and unselfishly made the team click on all cylinders)
1960s Leafs - Horton (solid, solid, solid, like the Rock of Gibraltar, exemplifying the team he played for)
1960s Canadiens - Beliveau (had emerged as the unquestioned team leader and always at the top of his game during the playoffs if not carrying an injury)
1970s Canadiens - Lafleur (the straw that stirred the drink, just great in the clutch)
1980s Islanders - Potvin (another all-around performer who excelled and inspired)
1980s Oilers - Gretzky (could be counted on to create enough goals--or score them himself--to win)

I recognize that some other choices are more than arguable.

Peter9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 05:08 PM
  #15
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
1970s Flyers - Parent (sorry Clarke, but two Conn Smythes tell the tale)
1970s Habs - Lafleur (make a case that he wasn't)
Three Hart Trophies, two over Orr in his prime in full seasons, trumps the 2 Smythes. The Broad Street Bullies were Bobby Clarke. Clarke was the leader and the Heart of the team. Parent especially, but Barber, MacLeish and Leach were great in the playoffs but Clarke was the cornerstone.. almost by definition of the term of that team.

The 70's Habs could be Lafleur. But I say the Dynasty runs deeper than just the 4 in a row. In 7 full seasons and 8 playoffs Dryden wins 6 Cups. He leaves for a season or retires and the team can not get it done in the playoffs. The most talented player, the most dynamic player was Lafleur. Even though Dryden could not have been in a better possible position with the team in front of him then any goalie in history, he is still the cornerstone, the anchor of that great 70's Habs team. I'll say the term cornerstone describes Dryden on the Habs accurately. Just like it did for Harvey in the 50's. It wasn't Geoffrion or Beliveau or Richard that was the anchor, the leader, the guy that dictated everything, it wasn't even Plante. It was Harvey. After Harvey and before Dryden it was clearly Beliveau.

Habs Cornerstones (some careers overlap)

Rocket
Harvey
Beliveau
Dryden
Roy

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 05:10 PM
  #16
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Limiting this to the dynasty teams:

1940s Leafs - Kennedy (a character player who went from a fine performer to a superstar at playoff time--without him, no dynasty for the Leafs.
1950s Wings - Kelly (a great performer and character player who took charge and played an all-round game)
1950s Canadiens - Harvey (the linchpin, he controlled the game and unselfishly made the team click on all cylinders)
1960s Leafs - Horton (solid, solid, solid, like the Rock of Gibraltar, exemplifying the team he played for)
1960s Canadiens - Beliveau (had emerged as the unquestioned team leader and always at the top of his game during the playoffs if not carrying an injury)
1970s Canadiens - Lafleur (the straw that stirred the drink, just great in the clutch)
1980s Islanders - Potvin (another all-around performer who excelled and inspired)
1980s Oilers - Gretzky (could be counted on to create enough goals--or score them himself--to win)

I recognize that some other choices are more than arguable.
50's wings is Howe. the only argument could be Sawchuk but it would be a poor argument for him over Howe.

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 05:11 PM
  #17
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
50's wings is Howe. the only argument could be Sawchuk but it would be a poor argument for him over Howe.
I have definitely read articles from the 1950s by writers who thought Kelly was the most important player on the Red Wings.

I suppose I should try to dig some of them up for this round of the Top Defensemen project, right?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 05:20 PM
  #18
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have definitely read articles from the 1950s by writers who thought Kelly was the most important player on the Red Wings.

I suppose I should try to dig some of them up for this round of the Top Defensemen project, right?
I guess I base my argument for Harvey being the 50's Habs cornerstone from first hand accounts I have read. It seems impossible to me that the 7 first place teams in a row and multiple Cups when Howe was at his absolute peak. Gretzky/Mario type of dominance of the scoring race at the time.

I have heard great things about Kelly, about how he was the best before the Norris voting. It was him and Harvey for a long time.

It just seems improbable to me that Howe would not be the cornerstone of the Wings dynasty. He grew into the roll with Abel and Lindsay on his line as superstars in the late 40's then exploded when the Wings did with absurd leads in scoring every season. Gretzkyesque dominance that he could not continue... but was just among the very best for the next dozen years after that huge run with Beliveau and Hull and Bathgate.

I'll defer to your sources, I have heard amazing things about Kelly... I guess I would ignore them in comparision to Howe on those Wings teams as it seems impossible Howe was not the cornerstone. But then again he was not the Captain....

Sens Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 05:48 PM
  #19
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,145
vCash: 500
The rise to fame and glory of these clubs coincided with the arrival of these stars, crucial assets to each organization in their bids to be the world's best team of their era.

PRE-NHL: Frank McGee for the Ottawa Silver Seven.

NON-NHL: Vladislav Tretiak for Team USSR.

EARLY NHL: Cy Denneny for the Ottawa Senators.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-18-2011, 08:18 PM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
I guess I base my argument for Harvey being the 50's Habs cornerstone from first hand accounts I have read. It seems impossible to me that the 7 first place teams in a row and multiple Cups when Howe was at his absolute peak. Gretzky/Mario type of dominance of the scoring race at the time.

I have heard great things about Kelly, about how he was the best before the Norris voting. It was him and Harvey for a long time.

It just seems improbable to me that Howe would not be the cornerstone of the Wings dynasty. He grew into the roll with Abel and Lindsay on his line as superstars in the late 40's then exploded when the Wings did with absurd leads in scoring every season. Gretzkyesque dominance that he could not continue... but was just among the very best for the next dozen years after that huge run with Beliveau and Hull and Bathgate.

I'll defer to your sources, I have heard amazing things about Kelly... I guess I would ignore them in comparision to Howe on those Wings teams as it seems impossible Howe was not the cornerstone. But then again he was not the Captain....
Oh yes, there is certainly a case for Howe. The case against HOwe is that they didn't seem to need him in 1950.

My main point is that I think there is a much stronger case for Kelly than Sawchuk.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.