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Old
12-02-2011, 12:43 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Meatwagon View Post
Ask caps fans how they feel about Alzner......I remember them saying that they wouldn't trade him for Petro straight up. Now I think they have some serious homer glasses and if GMGM didnt take that offer he should be fired on the spot and punched in his junk.

Now Army would NEVER trade petro, but I just want to show how high they are on Alzner.
Don't forget about the great Carlson. Petro was very disrespected on this site over the summer, especially by the teams in the East.

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12-02-2011, 04:34 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Don't forget about the great Carlson. Petro was very disrespected on this site over the summer, especially by the teams in the East.
On one hand, you could say it's disrespect, but it's almost certainly just a lack of exposure. Almost every time the discussion came up, the response was, "Yea, Pietrangelo is a good young player who is going to get even better, but c'mon, he's not even on Doughty or Myers level, yet. Norris finalist. Calder winner. It'll be a few years before he's in the discussion. Besides, he clearly doesn't play against top lines like [insert young defenseman]."

That's the mantra. But that reads like someone who has a hard-on for appearing knowledgeable, reasonable, and right, when they've probably seen Pietrangelo play once, maybe twice since the WJC's. It's all about appearances. As long as you sound like you're being wise, you can pull off contrasting just about any young player with any other in a blatantly uninformed way. But all you really need to take away is that they clearly don't know what they're talking about. Maybe it's disappointing and a bit disrespectful to pretend otherwise, but I've come to expect that.

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12-02-2011, 08:41 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by h22prelude93 View Post
Ryan may not be a superstar yet by some people's standards, but one thing he definitely is, is a pure proven goal scorer. He's been among top 10 goal scorers in the league the past two seasons, and will only continue to improve. We need a guy like that. A guy that consistently put the puck in the net. And the simple truth is that it's not very often that guys with that kind of ability become available in this league. You really have to strike while the iron is hot.
you make good points here but lets not forget about perron and vlad. i know perron will be a bit shaky coming back and we dont get the tank til next year (hopefully) but they have huge potential to be big for us for years to come. i think with our depth at forward, we need to be a bit more stingy with our defense. cole WILL be a great paring for petro for a long time to come if he keeps his learning curve up. the way i see it is petro, shat, polak and cole will be our top four and i would be very comfortable with that. i dont know if jackman will stay but huskins and russell make for a good 5/6.

im not saying that i wouldn't love to see ryan in a bluenote but i just dont see him as a superstar. ya, he has proven he can score, but that was also with perry and getzlav. i would imagine perron could do the same thing ryan does on a line like that.

because im positive petro and shat are not going anywhere, he becomes our most desirable d man and i just dont see why we trade him now

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12-03-2011, 09:32 AM
  #179
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So now that our goalie tandem is in full swing and Elliot has solidified himself (hopefully they can resign him) where does that leave Bishop and Allen?

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12-03-2011, 10:40 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by h22prelude93 View Post
Ryan may not be a superstar yet by some people's standards, but one thing he definitely is, is a pure proven goal scorer. He's been among top 10 goal scorers in the league the past two seasons, and will only continue to improve. We need a guy like that. A guy that consistently put the puck in the net. And the simple truth is that it's not very often that guys with that kind of ability become available in this league. You really have to strike while the iron is hot.
A bit late now that he appears to be off the market, but I still don't think it would have been wise to pay the probable asking price for Ryan.

Since the start of 09/10 his PPG numbers are very similar to those of Chris Stewart. I'm not saying that Stewart is just as good as Ryan, but there isn't much there. Yes, Chris Stewart is streaky, but all true "goalscorers" in 30-35 goal a season range are; if they weren't they would be scoring 50. Stewart does take it to a bit of an extreme though For the record, their 82 game point pace since 09/10 is...

Chris Stewart: 30-34-64
Bobby Ryan: 33-31-64

We can dance around reasons, whether it is line mates or overall play, but for 2 players the same age with over 2 years as a sample size that can't be overlooked.

Either way, with Perron coming back and Tarasenko coming over next season, this isn't the time to be trading one of our main centres+ for a winger.


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Originally Posted by Blues88 View Post
So now that our goalie tandem is in full swing and Elliot has solidified himself (hopefully they can resign him) where does that leave Bishop and Allen?
Are they available? I think Bishop has always been available as part of a bigger trade. But ultimately we have no reason to trade them alone as goalies have such little value. It does somewhat leave Bishop as the odd man out, but I don't think it changes anything for Jake Allen at this stage.

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12-03-2011, 12:33 PM
  #181
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Are they available? I think Bishop has always been available as part of a bigger trade. But ultimately we have no reason to trade them alone as goalies have such little value. It does somewhat leave Bishop as the odd man out, but I don't think it changes anything for Jake Allen at this stage.
That's what I'm driving at.

It seems like the best option would be resigning Elliot to another one or two year deal and parting with Bishop + a top 6 forward in order to get a guy that can distribute the puck. I'm pretty horrible at assessing trade value or even thinking in these terms, but in my estimation we have a lot of guys who, in theory, are capable finishers but not too many guys who can set up and make plays.

*********
People seem to be pining for a proven goal scorer as evidenced by the calls for looking at Bobby Ryan. I see things differently. I see a team that is full of guys who, at least in spurts, have the ability to be capable finishers. What I don't see is very many legitimate playmakers. Looking at the active roster, Oshie and Sobotka, I would argue, are the best at setting up plays and passing the puck among the forwards. Perron's return helps in that department as he can feed the puck but I think the team feels the absence of Andy Mac in this area the most. I don't mean to be disrespectful when i say that at this point in time, both of these guys are questions marks (Perron being back on track at least).

I like the idea of Bobby Ryan, but I like the idea of Chris Stewart too. The thing I think people gloss over is that Ryan had a pretty capable center in Getzlaf (and for a time, Koivu) who could feed him pucks. Now that's not to say I haven't seen Ryan take over games, but I've seem Stewart do something similar. Anyone who's seen Stewart play AGAINST the Blues knows what he is truly capable of bringing. Put Ryan on this team and you'd see a honey moon period like we saw out of Stewart last season. He'd get goals, hell, Bobby Ryan might produce more than Stewart here, but I doubt he scores as much as he did in Anaheim. That's the absence of creating for yourself as opposed to having a Getzlaf or a Statsny feeding you the biscuit.

Who's really movable at this point?

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12-03-2011, 02:34 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
On one hand, you could say it's disrespect, but it's almost certainly just a lack of exposure. Almost every time the discussion came up, the response was, "Yea, Pietrangelo is a good young player who is going to get even better, but c'mon, he's not even on Doughty or Myers level, yet. Norris finalist. Calder winner. It'll be a few years before he's in the discussion. Besides, he clearly doesn't play against top lines like [insert young defenseman]."

That's the mantra. But that reads like someone who has a hard-on for appearing knowledgeable, reasonable, and right, when they've probably seen Pietrangelo play once, maybe twice since the WJC's. It's all about appearances. As long as you sound like you're being wise, you can pull off contrasting just about any young player with any other in a blatantly uninformed way. But all you really need to take away is that they clearly don't know what they're talking about. Maybe it's disappointing and a bit disrespectful to pretend otherwise, but I've come to expect that.

Great post! I've noticed this kind of behavior as well, especially on the polls forum. It's what I like to call 'social bull****', I see it all the time(about a myriad of subjects) at parties and other social gatherings. My theory is that it is one of the first things young people learn that is somewhat effective at enhancing their intellectual appearance, and they carry that on into adulthood(adults are just as guilty of it, if not more).

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12-04-2011, 03:15 PM
  #183
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How long before something happens to upgrade the offense? We can't win games consistently by scoring 2 goals a game. Whether it's a scorer or a playmaker to get our "scorers" going, we need something.

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12-04-2011, 04:17 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
How long before something happens to upgrade the offense? We can't win games consistently by scoring 2 goals a game. Whether it's a scorer or a playmaker to get our "scorers" going, we need something.
I dunno we got this Perron guy, seems like he could help us get some points.

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12-04-2011, 04:30 PM
  #185
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I dunno we got this Perron guy, seems like he could help us get some points.
Perron isn't going to magically make us good enough offensively. If we are able to get McDonald back too, then I would agree, but with the team we have right now including Perron, it still isn't good enough or consistent enough offensively. Perron is as talented as they come, but also as inconsistent as they come. Remember back when he played, he would go on stretches where he could score on anyone and then stretches where he couldn't buy a goal. It's great to have him back, but the offense still needs more.

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12-04-2011, 11:55 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Perron isn't going to magically make us good enough offensively. If we are able to get McDonald back too, then I would agree, but with the team we have right now including Perron, it still isn't good enough or consistent enough offensively. Perron is as talented as they come, but also as inconsistent as they come. Remember back when he played, he would go on stretches where he could score on anyone and then stretches where he couldn't buy a goal. It's great to have him back, but the offense still needs more.
Although I agree, what would we do? If we need to get more offense then we would have to trade one of our stars like pietrangelo to do it, so the best option we have is to just wait and see what hitch has planned in my opinion

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12-05-2011, 12:29 AM
  #187
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Although I agree, what would we do? If we need to get more offense then we would have to trade one of our stars like pietrangelo to do it, so the best option we have is to just wait and see what hitch has planned in my opinion
We would not have to trade Pietrangelo to get someone to help our offense. We have plenty of prospects to get a deal done. Rentals such as Ruutu and Prospal are options. Hejduk and Doan could be long shots, but they are pending free agents and could be available. Hemsky could be available if he is healthy. Any of those would help our offense and wouldn't cost an extreme amount.

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12-05-2011, 12:31 AM
  #188
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Almost every fan thinks their team "needs more offense". Vancouver has a top 5 offense in the league and their fans are constantly complaining about their scoring. If not scoring, then scoring depth. If not scoring depth, then toughness. If not toughness, then defense...well, you get the idea. It's always something. Nobody ever thinks their team is "good enough."

The Blues have plenty of scoring talent on this team. Including Oshie (whose career numbers average 20 goals per 82 games), there are 10 guys who've had 20 goals or more in the NHL on this team...5 of whom have hit 28 or more goals in a season. McDonald's injured, and Arnott/Langenbrunner are on the downsides of their career, but even then there's more than enough scoring talent there for a top 10 offense in this league.

There's no denying that they need to play to the level that they're capable of, but I don't see how anyone can objectively look at this team and think that they're only good for "2 goals a game" for the rest of this season. I think there's a good bit more string to play out before the Blues consider a major shakeup among the forwards.

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12-05-2011, 12:44 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
We would not have to trade Pietrangelo to get someone to help our offense. We have plenty of prospects to get a deal done. Rentals such as Ruutu and Prospal are options. Hejduk and Doan could be long shots, but they are pending free agents and could be available. Hemsky could be available if he is healthy. Any of those would help our offense and wouldn't cost an extreme amount.
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
Almost every fan thinks their team "needs more offense". Vancouver has a top 5 offense in the league and their fans are constantly complaining about their scoring. If not scoring, then scoring depth. If not scoring depth, then toughness. If not toughness, then defense...well, you get the idea. It's always something. Nobody ever thinks their team is "good enough."

The Blues have plenty of scoring talent on this team. Including Oshie (whose career numbers average 20 goals per 82 games), there are 10 guys who've had 20 goals or more in the NHL on this team...5 of whom have hit 28 or more goals in a season. McDonald's injured, and Arnott/Langenbrunner are on the downsides of their career, but even then there's more than enough scoring talent there for a top 10 offense in this league.

There's no denying that they need to play to the level that they're capable of, but I don't see how anyone can objectively look at this team and think that they're only good for "2 goals a game" for the rest of this season. I think there's a good bit more string to play out before the Blues consider a major shakeup among the forwards.
I wouldn't consider the players that I mentioned to be a major shakeup, especially considering all of them would only take a combination of picks and prospects.

Once Berglund and Stewart start playing to what they are capable of and we get a somewhat effective powerplay, we will be fine, but how do we know those things will happen. How many games in do we stop saying that Berglund and Stewart will break out and start saying that they are having one of those years where they are just in a slump all season.

I'm not saying that we need to get a 1st line guy, but if McDonald doesn't return we need to add someone. We don't have a dominant offensive line, so we need 3 balanced scoring lines and we are not even close to having that. As good as the SOB line has been, they are not of the caliber that can carry us offensively.

Perron should spark the 2nd line, but Perron has been inconsistent in his career, so that line won't be able to carry us offensively either.

Stewart on the 3rd line will help and if McDonald comes back, he will be able to get that line going and we will have 3 balanced scoring lines, but that might not happen.

Whether it is a center or a winger, I think we need 1 more player to give us 3 balanced scoring lines. We don't need a stud that will cost us Schwartz, but someone who can at least get 40-50 points and is talented offensively. We can not bank on McDonald returning.

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12-05-2011, 01:36 AM
  #190
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I guess people are just on the fence of the idea that none of the 23-28 year olds on the team are capable of elevating their game but a middle of the pack forward will elevate the team. It's way to hard to scapegoat anyone with a dead last powerplay and anything short of an elite forward to carry it. The thing about Perron being on the team has more to do with options than his personal production. He can play either side, he lets Hitchcock experiment with the lines and can distribute the hot or not players more evenly to avoid pairing up slumping players or holding someone back because they're creating chances for someone who can't seem to finish. It went into effect immediately when Perron came back, Stewart has had points in 3 games and finally scored a goal. Berglund got rewarded for creating a scoring chance that I looked at and immediately thought, I wish Stewart had the patience to shoot high like that.

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12-05-2011, 02:28 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I wouldn't consider the players that I mentioned to be a major shakeup, especially considering all of them would only take a combination of picks and prospects.

Once Berglund and Stewart start playing to what they are capable of and we get a somewhat effective powerplay, we will be fine, but how do we know those things will happen. How many games in do we stop saying that Berglund and Stewart will break out and start saying that they are having one of those years where they are just in a slump all season.

I'm not saying that we need to get a 1st line guy, but if McDonald doesn't return we need to add someone. We don't have a dominant offensive line, so we need 3 balanced scoring lines and we are not even close to having that. As good as the SOB line has been, they are not of the caliber that can carry us offensively.

Perron should spark the 2nd line, but Perron has been inconsistent in his career, so that line won't be able to carry us offensively either.

Stewart on the 3rd line will help and if McDonald comes back, he will be able to get that line going and we will have 3 balanced scoring lines, but that might not happen.

Whether it is a center or a winger, I think we need 1 more player to give us 3 balanced scoring lines. We don't need a stud that will cost us Schwartz, but someone who can at least get 40-50 points and is talented offensively. We can not bank on McDonald returning.
Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression that was directed at you specifically. It was more just my general thoughts on how fans are always thinking that their team is "one player away" from solving whatever they perceive to be the problem with their team at the moment.

The harsh reality is that a single player rarely makes the sort of difference that those fans anticipate. Bringing in Ryan (for example) wouldn't have "fixed" our PP or offense by itself anymore than bringing in Kovalchuk would have suddenly given the Devils a 90 offensive player or bringing in Mike Richards would have suddenly given LA a top 5 offense and made them Cup contenders. Or for that matter, the Pens offense tanking because of extended absences from Crosby and Malkin.

The Blues have exactly what they need...they just need those players to play better. That mostly involves consistently playing well as a team from a system/effort standpoint. Everything else flows from that. Strong system play and puck support leads to puck possession. Puck possession leads to momentum ("playing downhill", if you will). Momentum leads to confidence. Confidence leads to putting the puck in the other team's net while keeping it out of your own. It sounds overly simplistic, but that's the essence of consistently doing well in this game.

Right now the Blues have all the confidence in the world in their 5 on 5 play, and are among the league leaders in 5 on 5 play as a result, but absolutely no confidence in their PP. Bringing in an outsider isn't going to "fix" that...it's something that's going to have to be worked out the hard way.

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12-05-2011, 02:43 AM
  #192
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Sorry, didn't mean to give the impression that was directed at you specifically. It was more just my general thoughts on how fans are always thinking that their team is "one player away" from solving whatever they perceive to be the problem with their team at the moment.

The harsh reality is that a single player rarely makes the sort of difference that those fans anticipate. Bringing in Ryan (for example) wouldn't have "fixed" our PP or offense by itself anymore than bringing in Kovalchuk would have suddenly given the Devils a 90 offensive player or bringing in Mike Richards would have suddenly given LA a top 5 offense and made them Cup contenders. Or for that matter, the Pens offense tanking because of extended absences from Crosby and Malkin.

The Blues have exactly what they need...they just need those players to play better. That mostly involves consistently playing well as a team from a system/effort standpoint. Everything else flows from that. Strong system play and puck support leads to puck possession. Puck possession leads to momentum ("playing downhill", if you will). Momentum leads to confidence. Confidence leads to putting the puck in the other team's net while keeping it out of your own. It sounds overly simplistic, but that's the essence of consistently doing well in this game.

Right now the Blues have all the confidence in the world in their 5 on 5 play, and are among the league leaders in 5 on 5 play as a result, but absolutely no confidence in their PP. Bringing in an outsider isn't going to "fix" that...it's something that's going to have to be worked out the hard way.
Yeah you are right, the misconception that a single player is going to "fix" our problems is false. The only players that can do that are Crosby, Malkin, and other players of that elite caliber. I think we should add someone to the roster, but if we get Berglund and Stewart going, it will have the same effect. Stewart's goal was great and hopefully that is a sign of things to come and hopefully being on the 3rd line will light a fire under him. Perron is just what Berglund needed as well.

We will have other games where we will get out worked and out played, which is why a team with no dominate offensive player needs 3 balanced scoring lines, so when 1 has an off night, we still have the other 2.

We need to not get too high with our winning streaks and not too low after losses.

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12-05-2011, 08:21 AM
  #193
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I wouldn't consider the players that I mentioned to be a major shakeup, especially considering all of them would only take a combination of picks and prospects.
Not one of those players does anything to help our offense. The players we already have are better than they are.


Quote:
Once Berglund and Stewart start playing to what they are capable of and we get a somewhat effective powerplay, we will be fine, but how do we know those things will happen.
Because Berglund and Stewart are already starting to break out offensively. It started 3 games ago with the D'Agostini goal.

The PP still needs to turn around, but that will happen as Stewart, Berglund and Perron get confidence.

Quote:
How many games in do we stop saying that Berglund and Stewart will break out and start saying that they are having one of those years where they are just in a slump all season.

As I said; they're already breaking out of it.
The question we have to answer now is whether getting Berglund and Stewart going is enough or if we need an upgrade on one of those players.

Quote:
I'm not saying that we need to get a 1st line guy, but if McDonald doesn't return we need to add someone.
Without McDonald we have 9 players that have proven themselves capable of producing upwards of 40 points(Backes, Steen, Stewart, Berglund, Oshie, Perron, D'Agostini, Langenbrunner, Arnott) plus Sobotka who produces at a 50 point pace every time he is given top 6 caliber linemates.

A 40-50 point guy does NOTHING to improve our offense. All that does is add another body to the mix that probably won't do any better on the PP than what we already have. The only way to "improve" our offense is to get somebody that adds to our top-end skill(meaning at least a 60-70 point player).

Quote:
We don't have a dominant offensive line, so we need 3 balanced scoring lines and we are not even close to having that. As good as the SOB line has been, they are not of the caliber that can carry us offensively.

Our lines are already fairly balanced, especially on the defensive side of things. If we want our offense to improve then we need one of those lines to prove they are a step above the others and take over the offensive burden of this team. That won't happen with another 40-50 point guy.

Quote:
Perron should spark the 2nd line, but Perron has been inconsistent in his career, so that line won't be able to carry us offensively either.

Fair point, but if Perron can't do it then no 40-50 point guy is going to do it either. Perron has proven that he is more than just a 50 point guy when healthy.

Quote:
Stewart on the 3rd line will help and if McDonald comes back, he will be able to get that line going and we will have 3 balanced scoring lines, but that might not happen.
As I said, we already have 3 balanced scoring lines.
Getting McDonald back adds a near PPG(60+ points) guy to the lineup, and that is a LOT different than your "3 balanced lines" argument. A guy like that is an offensive catalyst that other teams have to key on, and whether he produces or not it does give a team the kind of mis-matches that a more high-profile guy(like a Crosby/AO/Malkin/Datsyuk) creates.

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Whether it is a center or a winger, I think we need 1 more player to give us 3 balanced scoring lines. We don't need a stud that will cost us Schwartz, but someone who can at least get 40-50 points and is talented offensively. We can not bank on McDonald returning.
1) You're right that we can't count on McDonald returning.
But you are 100% incorrect is calling or equating McDonald to a 40-50 point guy. McDonald is a 60+ point producer when healthy and is one of the top 3 most skilled players on this team. If your argument is that we can't count on McDonald and we need to get a player of his caliber to replace him; then you need to be targeting a 60+ point player, not a 40-50 point player. The level of difference between the two calibers is simply too massive to write off.

2) It won't cost us Schwartz to get a 60+ point player; period.
Prospects of Schwartz's caliber are never involved in a trade for a Star player unless they are considered NHL ready and are being valued as a roster player(as Brayden Schenn was in the Richards deal this past summer). Schwartz is not nearly close enough to NHL readiness to be valued in that way, and as such there is practically zero chance that he is included in such a deal.

The package that is most likely to be offered is Berglund, D'Agostini and some collection of draft picks depending on how good of a player we are receiving. As absurd as it may sound, that is the package that most "Star" forwards are dealt for.

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12-05-2011, 08:33 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
We will have other games where we will get out worked and out played, which is why a team with no dominate offensive player needs 3 balanced scoring lines, so when 1 has an off night, we still have the other 2.
That is a fine theory, except that isn't how it works in the real world. In the real world all of your lines will feed off one another. If one of your lines is having an off-night, most likely all of them will. In a balanced offense, if one of your lines is getting outworked then the opponent will be able to shift his defensive match-ups to counter any of your other lines that happens to be doing well.


The only way for a "balanced" approach to propel a team to the top of the standings is if the work ethic is there on all of your lines 100% of the time. Short of that; you need a "Star" forward that can put up points on any night at any given moment, even if the work ethic doesn't appear to be there, to draw the defensive mismatches that you're counting on for production from your lower lines.

If this team isn't going to get a Star forward, then it simply cannot allow itself to be outworked. It doesn't matter how "balanced" the lines are, if the work ethic is below par there is simply no way the team is going to win a bunch of games with a "balanced" approach.

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12-05-2011, 11:20 AM
  #195
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Not one of those players does anything to help our offense. The players we already have are better than they are.




Because Berglund and Stewart are already starting to break out offensively. It started 3 games ago with the D'Agostini goal.

The PP still needs to turn around, but that will happen as Stewart, Berglund and Perron get confidence.




As I said; they're already breaking out of it.
The question we have to answer now is whether getting Berglund and Stewart going is enough or if we need an upgrade on one of those players.



Without McDonald we have 9 players that have proven themselves capable of producing upwards of 40 points(Backes, Steen, Stewart, Berglund, Oshie, Perron, D'Agostini, Langenbrunner, Arnott) plus Sobotka who produces at a 50 point pace every time he is given top 6 caliber linemates.

A 40-50 point guy does NOTHING to improve our offense. All that does is add another body to the mix that probably won't do any better on the PP than what we already have. The only way to "improve" our offense is to get somebody that adds to our top-end skill(meaning at least a 60-70 point player).




Our lines are already fairly balanced, especially on the defensive side of things. If we want our offense to improve then we need one of those lines to prove they are a step above the others and take over the offensive burden of this team. That won't happen with another 40-50 point guy.




Fair point, but if Perron can't do it then no 40-50 point guy is going to do it either. Perron has proven that he is more than just a 50 point guy when healthy.



As I said, we already have 3 balanced scoring lines.
Getting McDonald back adds a near PPG(60+ points) guy to the lineup, and that is a LOT different than your "3 balanced lines" argument. A guy like that is an offensive catalyst that other teams have to key on, and whether he produces or not it does give a team the kind of mis-matches that a more high-profile guy(like a Crosby/AO/Malkin/Datsyuk) creates.



1) You're right that we can't count on McDonald returning.
But you are 100% incorrect is calling or equating McDonald to a 40-50 point guy. McDonald is a 60+ point producer when healthy and is one of the top 3 most skilled players on this team. If your argument is that we can't count on McDonald and we need to get a player of his caliber to replace him; then you need to be targeting a 60+ point player, not a 40-50 point player. The level of difference between the two calibers is simply too massive to write off.

2) It won't cost us Schwartz to get a 60+ point player; period.
Prospects of Schwartz's caliber are never involved in a trade for a Star player unless they are considered NHL ready and are being valued as a roster player(as Brayden Schenn was in the Richards deal this past summer). Schwartz is not nearly close enough to NHL readiness to be valued in that way, and as such there is practically zero chance that he is included in such a deal.

The package that is most likely to be offered is Berglund, D'Agostini and some collection of draft picks depending on how good of a player we are receiving. As absurd as it may sound, that is the package that most "Star" forwards are dealt for.
1) So Doan, Hejduk, Hemsky, Prospal, or Ruutu wouldn't be offensive upgrades over Langenbrunner, Arnott, Sobotka, or D'Agostini? Come on take the homer glasses off.

2) You can't say Berglund and Stewart are breaking out until they over a longer span. Fernando Torres got a few goals for Chelsea, but he is still in his massive slump, it takes a lot longer than a couple games. Remember Marleau in 07-08.

The powerplay is far from being fixed.

3) I need to see them do it longer before I say they have broken out and are back. Besides the goal, Stewart had a bad game against Chicago.

4) Sobotka, Langenbrunner, and Arnott are not 40 point players. Sobotka might get to 40, but he won't get anything more than that. If you read what I said, I said we need someone to give us 3 balanced scoring lines, someone to play on the 3rd line, which are typically 40-50 point players. That would give us 3 balanced scoring lines. Trading for top talent isn't very realistic.

5) We have good defensive lines, but they are not anywhere close to being offensively balanced with they way they are playing. We the SOB line, I will give the 2nd some time with Perron on it, so all we need is a more productive 3rd line, which is why we only need a 40-50 point player for that 3rd line, someone like Ruutu who would be around 50ish points.

6) When has Perron proven he is more than a 50 point player? He has the potential, but he hasn't proven it.

7) Don't compare McDonald to players like Datsyuk, Crosby, Malkin, etc. McDonald is very good, but not anywhere close to being in that elite class. We currently do not have 3 scoring lines that are producing, meaning we don't have balance.

8) I never said anything about replacing McDonald, all I said is we need to add someone to give us 3 balanced scoring lines. That does not mean a star player to carry the load. 3 balanced scoring lines means you don't have anyone that can carry the load on their own. A Ruutu on the 3rd line would be great and is the type of move that I am talking about. Someone who can get 50 points and play the style that we play. He is a top 6 player, unlike Sobotka and would make the 3rd line more consistent and productive.

We can dream about the star player trade all we want, but it most likely isn't going to happen. You are completely missing the point of 3 balanced scoring lines. Balanced scoring lines is basically having 3 2nd lines. All 3 lines can be productive, but they aren't strong enough to carry the load like other true #1 lines. We don't need anyone to fix the offense, we need another threat to help the offense.

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12-05-2011, 11:29 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
That is a fine theory, except that isn't how it works in the real world. In the real world all of your lines will feed off one another. If one of your lines is having an off-night, most likely all of them will. In a balanced offense, if one of your lines is getting outworked then the opponent will be able to shift his defensive match-ups to counter any of your other lines that happens to be doing well.


The only way for a "balanced" approach to propel a team to the top of the standings is if the work ethic is there on all of your lines 100% of the time. Short of that; you need a "Star" forward that can put up points on any night at any given moment, even if the work ethic doesn't appear to be there, to draw the defensive mismatches that you're counting on for production from your lower lines.

If this team isn't going to get a Star forward, then it simply cannot allow itself to be outworked. It doesn't matter how "balanced" the lines are, if the work ethic is below par there is simply no way the team is going to win a bunch of games with a "balanced" approach.
Lines feed off each other? How do you explain how the SOB line performed while Berglund, Stewart, and D'Agostini were completely useless offensively?

A balanced top 9 doesn't need a star player. Team's with star players don't need balance on the top 9. Look at the Penguins they have a few big name players and a bunch of other players that talent wise aren't anywhere close to them. Their star players carry the load. Now look at our team, we don't have any star players, so for us to consistently win, we need at least 2 lines performing and producing each night, with the only exception being if our goalies steal the game.

Another benefit of balanced scoring lines is that we now have Stewart on the 3rd and he will be facing the 3rd defensive pairings, yet we have no star player which you say we have to have to create mismatches with the lower lines. You create mismatches by having 3 lines that can consistently produce or are at least a threat to produce. Arnott and Langenbrunner have been invisible offensively. I love Sobotka as an all-round player, but Blues fans have really been overrating him lately. He gives 110% on the ice and I am not criticizing him, but Blues fans have been overrating his talent level, he is not a 50 point player like you say.

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12-05-2011, 05:02 PM
  #197
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A balanced top 9 doesn't need a star player. Team's with star players don't need balance on the top 9. Look at the Penguins they have a few big name players and a bunch of other players that talent wise aren't anywhere close to them. Their star players carry the load.
You're underrating Pittsburgh's scoring depth rather considerably. They averaged a shade under 3 goals a game last year (2.9 G/GP) in spite of only getting 146 total games played from Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Neal (three of their top 5 scorers this year, plus Crosby). Those four only accounted for 22% of Pittsburgh's total points last year, and 25% of their team's goals. (As a comparison, their defense accounted for 27% of the team's total points. Letang and Goligoski had more PP points than Crosby, Malkin, and Staal combined.)

There's certainly a talent gap there between the stars and the rest of the roster, but Pittsburgh scores a lot because they play a tremendous team game, they have skill throughout the roster, and they have a strong and deep defense that plays well both ways from top to bottom.

Pittsburgh's offense is even better this year (although not as much as you might think...3.15 G/GP), obviously, because their talented stars have mostly healthy...but it's a misconception that Pittsburgh's stars carry the load. They score plenty even when their big guns are out, because of the reasons I mentioned above. All the top offenses have scoring balance (as in legitimate scoring threats, not necessarily equal talent) throughout their top 9...and sometimes even deeper than that.

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12-05-2011, 06:10 PM
  #198
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You're underrating Pittsburgh's scoring depth rather considerably. They averaged a shade under 3 goals a game last year (2.9 G/GP) in spite of only getting 146 total games played from Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Neal (three of their top 5 scorers this year, plus Crosby). Those four only accounted for 22% of Pittsburgh's total points last year, and 25% of their team's goals. (As a comparison, their defense accounted for 27% of the team's total points. Letang and Goligoski had more PP points than Crosby, Malkin, and Staal combined.)

There's certainly a talent gap there between the stars and the rest of the roster, but Pittsburgh scores a lot because they play a tremendous team game, they have skill throughout the roster, and they have a strong and deep defense that plays well both ways from top to bottom.

Pittsburgh's offense is even better this year (although not as much as you might think...3.15 G/GP), obviously, because their talented stars have mostly healthy...but it's a misconception that Pittsburgh's stars carry the load. They score plenty even when their big guns are out, because of the reasons I mentioned above. All the top offenses have scoring balance (as in legitimate scoring threats, not necessarily equal talent) throughout their top 9...and sometimes even deeper than that.
Yes because their star players make the players around them better. I'm not saying the other players are scrubs, but Crosby and Malkin make them better, which is something that we don't have.

We can either have the pipe dream of having some star player coming here and who knows maybe Tarasenko will be that player or we can have as many scoring threats as possible. We aren't going to be able to continually outwork our opponents, especially in the playoffs when we are playing top teams in a 7 game series.

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12-05-2011, 07:15 PM
  #199
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I think the discussion about Pittsburgh is a bit of a distraction here. Its not a great example, because this team did exceptionally well even when both of their main stars were out for extended periods. Folks seem to underestimate the rest of the line-up. They have crafted a good team, and the guys know how to win.

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12-05-2011, 07:26 PM
  #200
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Yes because their star players make the players around them better. I'm not saying the other players are scrubs, but Crosby and Malkin make them better, which is something that we don't have.
This seems like a trendy thing to say, but even Crosby and Malkin don't magically make other players "better." You could put Mayers on their wing and he's not going to suddenly become a 20 goal/50 point player...the talent simply isn't there.

Kunitz was a 25 goal/60 point player well before he ever made it to the Pens. Dupuis a 20 goal/50 point guy. Neither has seen huge jumps in sustained production now that they've been playing almost exclusively alongside of Crosby or Malkin for years. A huge portion of the Pens offense last year had nothing to do with Crosby or Malkin at all. The stats back that up, as did watching a bunch of Pens games where Crosby or Malkin (or both) were out. They are far from the stars and "meh" team that you're making them out to be. You're overall point is fair, but IMO the Pens are not a good example of the point you're trying to make.

Beyond that, I agree that it's unrealistic to expect the Blues to bring in a big name. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for otherwise. Bringing in another 40-50 point guy (which is about the most realistic return we could expect) to bump a 30-40 point guy down a line isn't going to accomplish hardly anything at all...especially if they're giving any of that back by being worse on defense (or a worse system player) than the guy that's being bumped down.

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