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After 20 games, I think it's safe to say...

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Old
11-21-2011, 04:02 PM
  #51
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It's not only scoring goals that the bottom line fails to do. They have no identity, no character. Lots of times games can be changed by a great shift from one of your bottom lines. Can anyone think of a momentum changing shift the Kings have gotten from their bottom lines?

But again it's to be expected when you have fringe NHL'ers and failed scoring line players in those roles. Are Dustin Penner or Jarret Stoll ever going to have one of those shifts where they get a standing O from the fans as they exit the ice? Come on.

We need to add real 3rd line players, guys like Penner, Stoll, Parse etc. are destined to be 2nd line players on awful teams, that is their roles in the NHL.

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11-21-2011, 04:03 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Granted it is indeed wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking is not allowed. You must be miserable and make sure everyone not only knows it, but joins in on your anger-driven pity party.

Otherwise you're not a real fan.

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11-21-2011, 04:06 PM
  #53
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I don't know...there is something wrong with all those botton 6.

Lewis is essentially a failed 1st round draft pick who had a decent David Steckel type year last year.

Richardson had a good year last year and was excellent in the playoffs, but is undersized and inconsistent.

Clifford is only 20 and struggling in his sophmore year.

Moreau is 36 years old about to be 37 coming off a major injury.

Trent Hunter had major surgery, was traded and bought out and never played in the faster Western Conference.

Stoll started out as a 3rd line center and then thrust into a 2nd line center role and now back as a 3rd line center and struggling.

Fraser had 2 good games and now flat lined...and again, coming off major/minor surgery.

None of these guys are Travis Moen, Sean Bergenheim or Dave Bolland.

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11-21-2011, 04:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
It's not only scoring goals that the bottom line fails to do. They have no identity, no character. Lots of times games can be changed by a great shift from one of your bottom lines. Can anyone think of a momentum changing shift the Kings have gotten from their bottom lines?
I agree. The only time I've seen the 3rd/4th lines play like i would expect is when Fraser is on the ice. The shift where he scored his goal is pretty much the only memory I have so far this season of the 3rd or 4th line doing anything positive/energetic. I'm sure there have been a few other sporadic cases, but that's the only one I can remember.

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11-21-2011, 04:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
I'm not saying lets bury our heads in the sand and ignore the teams problems but YES, it is a very real possibility that this team can win when it matters most and some people just can't see that.

I think what breeds so much animosity between the skeptics and optimists is that everyone speaks with so much certainty around here. Like they know something you don't.

Again, tides shift many times throughtout the course of a season and the most important thing above ANYTHING ELSE is that your team is peaking going into the playoffs. Everything else is just warm-ups.
That's the difference right there - the ones labeled skeptics or pessimists generally talk about what IS right now. The optimists talk about what could be or should be as though it has already happened or that is somehow definitely going to happen. I can't see the future, but I can interpret the past. Like Sydor25 said, the offensive production has been essentially the same for over 250 games regardless of who was on the squad - why is this suddenly going to switch to a dominating, effective offense?

At point are you willing to question if the Kings are going in the right direction? The midpoint? Trade deadline? Do you wait until the best they can hope for is to sneak into the playoffs in the last few days of the season?

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11-21-2011, 04:13 PM
  #56
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Many thought that Stoll would flourish with less pressure to perform as a 2nd line center and would fit like a glove sliding down to center the 3rd line, but he's actually gotten worse and has become completely ineffective. The man has become a succubus of any offense.

I'd like to know what the hell is going on with him and why is it that guys like Richardson and Lewis are being scratched while Stoll continues to struggle out there. He needs to spend some quality time in the press box and give that 3rd C spot over to Loktionov and see what he can do there.

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11-21-2011, 04:18 PM
  #57
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Stoll is dating an actress...usually the end of every hockey players career...ask Avery, Phaneuf and Daigle.

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11-21-2011, 04:20 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Stoll is dating an actress...usually the end of every hockey players career...ask Avery, Phaneuf and Daigle.
Didn't Charlie Simmer and Bernie Nicholls date Playboy Playmates? I figure that would be more distracting but it never stopped them from scoring (on and off the ice).

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11-21-2011, 04:21 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Many thought that Stoll would flourish with less pressure to perform as a 2nd line center and would fit like a glove sliding down to center the 3rd line, but he's actually gotten worse and has become completely ineffective. The man has become a succubus of any offense.

I'd like to know what the hell is going on with him and why is it that guys like Richardson and Lewis are being scratched while Stoll continues to struggle out there. He needs to spend some quality time in the press box and give that 3rd C spot over to Loktionov and see what he can do there.
My theory is that Stoll gets a bunch of PP time and isn't scratched because he is #8 in the NHL in Faceoff Won %.

That's it - nothing else.

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11-21-2011, 04:22 PM
  #60
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MURRAY: “I think the offensive part of the game, it can happen. They can score some big goals at critical times of the. Going back to Detroit, or back to the playoffs last year, usually your top two lines are going to neutralize each other over the course of a game or a series. That’s where your other players have to step up and take advantage of the opportunity to contribute, big time. And they did that in the playoffs last year. They did a good job. Right now, they’ve been getting some looks, especially Richardson, and haven’t been able to find the back of the net. He has a resume of being able to score, as does Lewis. It’s not there right now. We’ve gone through 20 games, and no goals.
And how are they going to get those goals, coach? By playing in the high scoring areas? Taking the puck to the middle of the ice, where turnovers can happen?

Coach?

Quote:
MURRAY: “That being said, they need to be better in other areas of the ice, though. They’ve got to be better in that dot-to-board game, recovering pucks, harder on the puck and stronger plays whenever they do have it.
Ah, I see, they need to play along the boards to score more goals. Damn, all these scoring teams just don't get it. No reason to spend so much time between the dots.

Quote:
MURRAY: "If the puck is not going into the net, then they have to find a way to make a difference in the game by doing all the other stuff that’s critical to playing the game the right way, playing it hard and determined. There needs to be a little bit of improvement in that area, quite frankly.”
Does anyone see a lack of drive and hustle from Lewis and Richardson? The one thing that I consistently see from Lewis and Richardson is playing hard and determined.

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11-21-2011, 04:23 PM
  #61
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Matt Kemp should have a talk with Jarret Stoll.

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11-21-2011, 04:28 PM
  #62
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Stoll just cemented his place as a UFA so far....Kings won't re-sign him when Loktionov is waiting in the wings for the #3 center position.

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11-21-2011, 04:29 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Many thought that Stoll would flourish with less pressure to perform as a 2nd line center and would fit like a glove sliding down to center the 3rd line, but he's actually gotten worse and has become completely ineffective. The man has become a succubus of any offense.

I'd like to know what the hell is going on with him and why is it that guys like Richardson and Lewis are being scratched while Stoll continues to struggle out there. He needs to spend some quality time in the press box and give that 3rd C spot over to Loktionov and see what he can do there.
I know I have beaten this horse many times...

Just because a guy fails as a closer doesn't mean he is going to be a good 8th inning set-up guy. That is the situation with Stoll. He failed as a second line center so management thought he would be good in a lesser role, but failed to realize it's a lesser but also different type of role.

Jarret Stoll just doesn't bring any of those things to a hockey team that great 3rd liners like Bolland bring. He has a second line players mentality, and that isn't going to work in a 3rd line role. Murray and Lombardi should have known better.

Just be thankful this awful contract is off the books after this season

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11-21-2011, 04:37 PM
  #64
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Stoll, Penner, Fraser, Parse, Moreau, Hunter, Mitchell are all UFA's....I would re-sign Mitchell....everyone else can go.

That's about 15 million right there.

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11-21-2011, 04:43 PM
  #65
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One of these threads already ?

So people ready to jump on the sword after 20 games ?

The Kings started pretty much Like I thought they would.....Slow, Europe really screws teams over.

Not really worried at all, But then again I was realistic with my expectations. I knew even with Gagne and Richards added. The Kings were not going to steam roll teams.


It's going to be a fight tooth and nail, just like last year.

The really red flag so far is that Bottom six being awful. I mean if you told me last year that; the players we have in the bottom Six were going to be this bad. I would have thought you were crazy.

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11-21-2011, 04:45 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
No problem with sharing thoughts. But expect them to get argued. Especially one that is as premature as yours.
I don't understand how my thoughts could possibly be premature....the boys have played 20 games, and have performed significantly below expectations. The stats prove it. If anyone here believes this years team is an ELITE team, I want some of what you are smoking.

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11-21-2011, 04:46 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Stoll, Penner, Fraser, Parse, Moreau, Hunter, Mitchell are all UFA's....I would re-sign Mitchell....everyone else can go.

That's about 15 million right there.
Agreed. Maybe bring Fraser back as a 4th line energy guy/ 13th forward.

But we need to overhaul the bottom lines, especially the 3rd line, come up with some kind of identity. Are we going to go with more speed and skill with Loktionov? Are we going to add a defensive stopper to open up more offense for Richards? Are we going to get tougher?

I am ok with any of those options, anything is better than watching Penner and Stoll try and play as 3rd liners, it's depressing. Almost 8 million for 1 goal and uninspired effort.

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11-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Axl Rhoadz View Post
I don't understand how my thoughts could possibly be premature....the boys have played 20 games, and have performed significantly below expectations. The stats prove it. If anyone here believes this years team is an ELITE team, I want some of what you are smoking.
That right there is people's problem. No one should have come into this year thinking the Kings were going to be elite.

We really only added One guy that is a Game changer(Richards). Gagne is good, but he is not the straw that stirs the Drink. The Kings do need more players like him. But we only added ONE of him.

This is the First year the Kings have a legit Top six. I mean .......How many years have the Redwings had a legit Top six ......Like 15 ????

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11-21-2011, 04:50 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
I know I have beaten this horse many times...

Just because a guy fails as a closer doesn't mean he is going to be a good 8th inning set-up guy. That is the situation with Stoll. He failed as a second line center so management thought he would be good in a lesser role, but failed to realize it's a lesser but also different type of role.

Jarret Stoll just doesn't bring any of those things to a hockey team that great 3rd liners like Bolland bring. He has a second line players mentality, and that isn't going to work in a 3rd line role. Murray and Lombardi should have known better.

Just be thankful this awful contract is off the books after this season
Put Bolland in the Kings system and he would probably struggle to score. Bolland plays in an offensive system that has generated 21 more goals than the Kings and Bolland only has 2 more points than Stoll. Bolland is also a -5, while Stoll is even. Stoll has more hits than Bolland, 1.75 per game to 1. Stoll is 56.1% in face-offs and Bolland is 48.1%. Shouldn’t a third line center hit, win face-offs and play even or better? Just because Murray says he wants goals from the bottom six doesn’t mean that he lets them play that way. He wants them to play along the boards and score as if they are attacking the middle of the ice.

Until we see Bolland play for LA and Stoll play for Chicago, it is impossible to say how they would perform in a new system. Until Murray is fired, Stoll is playing exactly as he is asked. Just telling a player to score more goals isn’t coaching. A fundamental shift needs to occur in the system if we want the Kings offense to improve. Changing the personnel hasn’t worked.

BTW, Simmonds plays with the top offense in the NHL and has 8 points and is a -2. He has 2 even strength goals, just 1 more than Stoll.

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11-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
That right there is people's problem. No one should have come into this year thinking the Kings were going to be elite.

We really only added One guy that is a Game changer(Richards). Gagne is good, but he is not the straw that stirs the Drink. The Kings do need more players like him. But we only added ONE of him.
Who are the game changers on Phoenix or Nashville?

Right now I would take an average offense, Murray hasn't been able to do it over 250 games. Why would that change with another "game changer" added?

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11-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #71
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Sorry, I thought that's what a message board is all about...sharing/posting comments about a particular interest. Maybe we can get the whole thing shut down until April? Great idea...
Well when you announce the team is a failure in November, then we might as well. What is left to discuss? You've already explained to us what this team is and where they aren't going. With all the foresight around here, it is a wonder some of you even watch the games. I guess maybe to prove to yourselves how right you are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
I'm not saying lets bury our heads in the sand and ignore the teams problems but YES, it is a very real possibility that this team can win when it matters most and some people just can't see that.

I think what breeds so much animosity between the skeptics and optimists is that everyone speaks with so much certainty around here. Like they know something you don't.

Again, tides shift many times throughtout the course of a season and the most important thing above ANYTHING ELSE is that your team is peaking going into the playoffs. Everything else is just warm-ups.
I agree on all points and it is amazing to me how smart some of the people on here think they are.

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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
That's the difference right there - the ones labeled skeptics or pessimists generally talk about what IS right now. The optimists talk about what could be or should be as though it has already happened or that is somehow definitely going to happen. I can't see the future, but I can interpret the past. Like Sydor25 said, the offensive production has been essentially the same for over 250 games regardless of who was on the squad - why is this suddenly going to switch to a dominating, effective offense?

At point are you willing to question if the Kings are going in the right direction? The midpoint? Trade deadline? Do you wait until the best they can hope for is to sneak into the playoffs in the last few days of the season?
I think the Kings are going in the right direction when I look at the personnel assembled. You have a #1 and #2 center, #1 and #2 dman and a #1 goalie. Would you 1) like to dispute that statement and 2) assuming you agree, when is the last time the Kings had those caliber of players in those positions?

I don't think the OP or anyone here is breaking any new ground. This has been talked ad naseum for 3 years now. The Kings suck at scoring goals 5 on 5 and that isn't really much different from the Crawford or Andy Murray eras. That being said I do think they have the ability to advance in the playoffs this year with the group they have assembled in spite of their coach. And if you guys don't think that is possible, in all seriousness, why are you watching?

One other thing I always see you asking for is accountability. Who exactly are you looking to be held accountable and by whom?

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11-21-2011, 04:54 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Who are the game changers on Phoenix or Nashville?

Right now I would take an average offense, Murray hasn't been able to do it over 250 games. Why would that change with another "game changer" added?
I get it bro Murray is the Devil. But like it or not Stuck with him. And John Stevens is your next coach. Which actually might be worse.

Yes PHX and NSH are awesome Regular seasons Teams. Remind me how many Cups those teams have. Or playoff series wins. Right now PHX has the biggest Playoff series win drought in the league(if I am correct).

Yes tippet and Trotz are awesome. Sign me up.

Now make an Argument for Pitt (Blysma). I am on board with you bro. Cause that man can freakin Coach. But keep throwing Tippet out there with his THREE 50 win teams that ALL WENT OUT IN THE FIRST ROUND.
And his FIVE OUT OF SEVEN First round exists. So he gets more of nothing during the Reg season Big deal. He sure as SH$#% can't do it during the playoff''s When the games freakin matter.

I am all on board with getting rid of Murray. But guess what, Dean has to go as WELL. Cause he will HIRE Terry LITE.


Last edited by damacles1156: 11-21-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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11-21-2011, 05:03 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I don't think the OP or anyone here is breaking any new ground. This has been talked ad naseum for 3 years now. The Kings suck at scoring goals 5 on 5 and that isn't really much different from the Crawford or Andy Murray eras. That being said I do think they have the ability to advance in the playoffs this year with the group they have assembled in spite of their coach. And if you guys don't think that is possible, in all seriousness, why are you watching?
Would you say that the rosters that Crawford and Andy Murray were given are equal to the one Terry Murray has been given? Just because Lombardi has failed with both of his coaching choices doesn't mean the Kings (AEG) should just live with the mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
One other thing I always see you asking for is accountability. Who exactly are you looking to be held accountable and by whom?
At first I was hoping that Lombardi would hold Murray accountable for the horrible offense. He went out and traded part of his re-build for a #1 center that would play behind his ELITE #1 center, but it looks as if Lombardi is just fine with the system and play of his team. I don't see him replacing Murray any time soon and will probably ship more of the re-build out for another player to fail in Murray's offense around Christmas or the deadline.

Now I hope AEG holds Lombardi accountable if there is another first round exit, especially if Murray is still the coach. Lombardi might have to go before he can ship out more prospects for no improvement. It might be time for a new era of Kings management. I believe the pieces are in place for someone to take it to the next level. Will that be Lombardi and/or Murray? 20 games in and the answer is no.

I'm losing faith in the current management, but I will always be a Los Angeles Kings fan. No matter whom the owner, GM or coach is. I will always have something to say about the Kings, whether they are winning or not. No reason to stop being a fan of the team if I disagree with the direction of management or the players.

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11-21-2011, 05:05 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Would you say that the rosters that Crawford and Andy Murray were given are equal to the one Terry Murray has been given? Just because Lombardi has failed with both of his coaching choices doesn't mean the Kings (AEG) should just live with the mistakes.



At first I was hoping that Lombardi would hold Murray accountable for the horrible offense. He went out and traded part of his re-build for a #1 center that would play behind his ELITE #1 center, but it looks as if Lombardi is just fine with the system and play of his team. I don't see him replacing Murray any time soon and will probably ship more of the re-build out for another player to fail in Murray's offense around Christmas or the deadline.

Now I hope AEG holds Lombardi accountable if there is another first round exit, especially if Murray is still the coach. Lombardi might have to go before he can ship out more prospects for no improvement. It might be time for a new era of Kings management. I believe the pieces are in place for someone to take it to the next level. Will that be Lombardi and/or Murray? 20 games in and the answer is no.

I'm losing faith in the current management, but I will always be a Los Angeles Kings fan. No matter whom the owner, GM or coach is. I will always have something to say about the Kings, whether they are winning or not. No reason to stop being a fan of the team if I disagree with the direction of management or the players.
FINALLY You are starting to get it.

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11-21-2011, 05:11 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Yes PHX and NSH are awesome Regular seasons Teams. Remind me how many Cups those teams have. Or playoff series wins. Right now PHX has the biggest Playoff series win drought in the league(if I am correct).

Yes tippet and Trotz are awesome. Sign me up.

Now make an Argument for Pitt (Blysma). I am on board with you bro. Cause that man can freakin Coach. But keep throwing Tippet out there with his THREE 50 win teams that ALL WENT OUT IN THE FIRST ROUND.
And his FIVE OUT OF SEVEN First round exists. So he gets more of nothing during the Reg season Big deal. He sure as SH$#% can't do it during the playoff''s When the games freakin matter.

I am all on board with getting rid of Murray. But guess what, Dean has to go as WELL. Cause he will HIRE Terry LITE.
Your argument was that the Kings don't have enough game changers to compete and score. Yet Nashville and Phoenix have consistently done more with less. Tippett came in a fixed Gretzky's mess in ONE season. Where is Terry's success in the playoffs post lockout? How many rounds has he won? How many times have his teams finished in the top 4 of the conference since the lockout?

You never even answered my question, who are the game changers on Nashville and Phoenix? I've maintained that offense is needed to win the Cup, with evidence to back it up, but it isn't a guarantee of a Stanley Cup, just improves your odds. You said that the Kings needed more game changers to win and I don't think that is the problem. The Kings have all of the game changers that they need already on the roster, they just aren't allowed to use their natural ability.

Give Tippett and Trotz a team owner that is willing to spend to the cap and they will probably have better playoff success than they have shown, at least they are putting their teams in a better position than Terry Murray.

Yes, their overall success and failure is similar, but Trotz and Tippett get more out of their rosters than Murray has shown. Nashville and Phoenix are consistently picked to miss the payoffs and they keep making it. The Kings have been picked by some hockey "experts" to win the Pacific the past couple of season and haven't come close.

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