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(Quest For Knowledge Edition) G19. Coyotes @ Capitals. 11/21/11. Verizon Center. 7pm.

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Old
11-22-2011, 05:52 PM
  #526
Harvey Specter
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fellas, changing system/aggressiveness/defensive responsibility is NOT going to fix any of that ****. its all a weak excuse for the real problem: the russians are playing like crap. you can have ovi standing at the half-way line, guarded by 1 dman, and we'll flip the puck to him ASAP...he'll only try the same recycled move and get stoned, fumble the puck or otherwise do nothing remotely threatening to the opposing goalie.

a lot of guys have to play harder, like yesterday. ovechkin needs to play harder (consistently) and BETTER.

i'd fire haagdasz yesterday, but i'd tell the new coach to find a way to up the work ethic and improve consistency first, then look into getting the best out of ovi, sasha, etc., way before i'd start working on zone philosophies and breakouts and the like. that can be worked on in the last 3rd of the year. right now the caps need to show up to work and earn their wages.

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11-22-2011, 06:06 PM
  #527
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This team has needed a serious shake up ever since the Montreal series. This team looks disinterested most of the time. Ovie has become a primadonna. Hopefully it'll change. BB needs to go.

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11-22-2011, 06:06 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post
fellas, changing system/aggressiveness/defensive responsibility is NOT going to fix any of that ****. its all a weak excuse for the real problem: the russians are playing like crap. you can have ovi standing at the half-way line, guarded by 1 dman, and we'll flip the puck to him ASAP...he'll only try the same recycled move and get stoned, fumble the puck or otherwise do nothing remotely threatening to the opposing goalie.

a lot of guys have to play harder, like yesterday. ovechkin needs to play harder (consistently) and BETTER.

i'd fire haagdasz yesterday, but i'd tell the new coach to find a way to up the work ethic and improve consistency first, then look into getting the best out of ovi, sasha, etc., way before i'd start working on zone philosophies and breakouts and the like. that can be worked on in the last 3rd of the year. right now the caps need to show up to work and earn their wages.
Thats not true. Look at the 09-10 highlights. Yes OV was playing better but he also never has chances like that anymore.

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11-22-2011, 06:41 PM
  #529
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The league has figured out our transition scoring game... and lack thereof. We had no half ice game in that year cause we didn't "need" one to be a regular season team, and we were exposed for it.

They are lazy. They are making stupid and risky plays. They are not adapting. They are not working together.

Now I put a lot on BB... actually all of it. But at least the guy is now trying to act like a leader. I just don't think he can pull it off and what you're seeing in the poor attitude is the natural human reaction to that change. Now its the players turn to adapt as well. And if they can't... well that's still on BB.

He built this foundation over many years. And I hope for his sake if he's fired from the caps, that he starts with a more disciplined approach.


Last edited by HSHS: 11-22-2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: clarity
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11-22-2011, 06:43 PM
  #530
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See how much the league has "figured out" when green gets back.

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11-22-2011, 06:45 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
See how much the league has "figured out" when green gets back.
Our transition SCORING game.

IE scoring off the rush. Not exiting the zone.

edit: fixed op

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11-22-2011, 06:47 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by HSHS View Post
The league has figured out our transition scoring game... and lack thereof. We had no half ice game in that year cause we didn't "need" one to be a regular season team, and we were exposed for it.

They are lazy. They are making stupid and risky plays. They are not adapting. They are not working together.

Now I put a lot on BB... actually all of it. But at least the guy is now trying to act like a leader. I just don't think he can pull it off and what you're seeing in the poor attitude is the natural human reaction to that change. Now its the players turn to adapt as well. And if they can't... well that's still on BB.

He built this foundation over many years. And I hope for his sake if he's fired from the caps, that he starts with a more disciplined approach.
I think he will. It's hard to reel your employees in after you let them run things for a long time. BUT, it's a learning experience for the coach too.

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11-22-2011, 06:50 PM
  #533
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Thats not true. Look at the 09-10 highlights. Yes OV was playing better but he also never has chances like that anymore.
Has nothing to do with any system and everything to do with Ovy.


Stop trying to make everyone believe that he and Semin are underperforming because they're playing better D.....you and I both know that's just another crap excuse to place blame elsewhere instead of both of them manning up and taking a long hard look in the mirror.

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11-22-2011, 06:52 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
I think he will. It's hard to reel your employees in after you let them run things for a long time. BUT, it's a learning experience for the coach too.
Agreed. I was shocked this offseason to hear GMGM and BB's changes. But I didn't give them good odds of pulling it off cause of what you say. But knowing BB was still the coach, all I could do it hope he could do it. So that's why I'm not shocked by what we see now. Its why I'm not all up in FIRE BB arms... cause it was expected from me.

I don't care about the regular season. It's long. This is a new process. There are going to be issues. Either we go through the bumps and come out stronger or we don't, we get a better draft pick, BB is gone, and we start over next season fresh. To me its a win/win. If it works, its what I wanted to see. If it doesn't, well, he's done.

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11-22-2011, 07:03 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCup2012 View Post
Has nothing to do with any system and everything to do with Ovy.


Stop trying to make everyone believe that he and Semin are underperforming because they're playing better D.....you and I both know that's just another crap excuse to place blame elsewhere instead of both of them manning up and taking a long hard look in the mirror.
If they're playing better D then why are they letting up about 3 goals per game. And I'm not trying to make excuses. I said

1. I think they should go back to the offensive system
2. If they don't then people shouldn't call out OV and Semin. They're not going to score 50 goals in a defensive system. They're just not going to...

And anyway, it's not even a defensive system. It's just not playing as much offense. Theyre giving up just as many goals as they used to but scoring much less. They never take chances, but still are atrocious in their D zone. This whole glorified defensive system was an act by BB to save his ass. He has no clue what he's doing. He's a horrible tactical coach.

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11-22-2011, 07:22 PM
  #536
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He's had these guys come deeper in their zone. And we're forechecking only 2 at most, providing high side support from a forward as the opponents try to break into neutral zone. Plus the D guys aren't pinching as much to keep the puck in the offensive zone, relying on farside D to come to the middle of the ice and the weakside winger to cover the vacating opposite Dman.

Not really much tactics in his change. The "Defensive" change was mostly a mindset... backcheck. Support each other. Dump/change/chase. Try to be smarter.

There are issues that prevent our forwards getting the puck that don't have to do with a system "change". Its personnel and lack of a focus on the breakout. Its morons like sarge not knowing how to win a board battle on a dump.

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11-22-2011, 07:30 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by WcRoenick97 View Post
This team has needed a serious shake up ever since the Montreal series. This team looks disinterested most of the time. Ovie has become a primadonna. Hopefully it'll change. BB needs to go.

Perfectly said. Boudreau doesn't make adjustments effectively. The Caps players are good and possibly great--but we'll never know how good or great they can be until we have a coach that knows how to implement a game plan, on the fly, in the playoffs, against other great teams.

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11-22-2011, 07:32 PM
  #538
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Exactly. It's sad that we had 121 points, 4gpg and dominated the league when our players just played. Then we got a "system", and got swept in the second round. And then this year it looks like we have neither and we look like crap

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11-22-2011, 07:51 PM
  #539
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Lets just accept it. People named Tomas play better in Florida then they do in DC.

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11-22-2011, 09:50 PM
  #540
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Except I don't fault Ovie. He's in a tough spot. IMO he doesn't believe in the coach anymore but he wants to "do the right thing" by playing hard and not complaining. He's being a professional. But his heart isn't in it. Backstrom has been playing well--he, too, will start to light it up if the Caps replace Boudreau with a coach who has a good plan and adjusts as needed.

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11-22-2011, 10:11 PM
  #541
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Except I don't fault Ovie. He's in a tough spot. IMO he doesn't believe in the coach anymore but he wants to "do the right thing" by playing hard and not complaining. He's being a professional. But his heart isn't in it. Backstrom has been playing well--he, too, will start to light it up if the Caps replace Boudreau with a coach who has a good plan and adjusts as needed.
True. Ovechkin just looks kind of fake out there. He doesn't have that excitement or persona that made him, him. When you used to watch him play, you could tell this was "his team". You just don't see that anymore.

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11-22-2011, 10:14 PM
  #542
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Annndd how many cups did we win then?

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11-23-2011, 12:04 AM
  #543
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True. Ovechkin just looks kind of fake out there. He doesn't have that excitement or persona that made him, him. When you used to watch him play, you could tell this was "his team". You just don't see that anymore.
I do miss that old Ovechkin. Not necessarily the goals, but his positive attitude and always smiling approach. I still think he will catch on scoring wise. I really hope he catches fire and makes his critics eat it, especially McGuire. Fischler used to say lots of bad things about him too, but he was right about one thing. You take away Ovechkin, you take away the Capitals. He may not be lighting it up, but he is still hitting. If he stops hittng then I'm going to be concerned.

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11-23-2011, 03:58 AM
  #544
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speaking of PP, what happened to that thing they were doing at beginning of year, when they would set up in the zone, puck would come out to a guy at point, he would drift toward center while another guy would overlap behind him to other side? am i making that up? did we have something like that? at least there was some movement.
You're not making it up. I believe it happened more than once, but I know it happened on a PP goal that was set up by Green, Wideman crossed behind him, and I think they set up Backstrom for a goal. However, I could just as easily remember either Green or Wideman scoring on it, so I'm inclined to say it happened more than I'm specifically recalling.

Beyond the specifics of the power play, though, this comment goes to something I've been thinking in the larger sense. Those first 7 games, the Caps did a whole lot of things right. The "meat and potatoes" Chimera-Laich-Ward line was amazing. Dennis Wideman had a decent PPG streak. Mike Green was a boss. Boudreau sat a couple guys here or there who came back out to have huge games--and sometimes several, in the case of MoJo.

What has happened since then? Green was injured. In the wake of that, every single little thing that could possibly be shuffled was. The first time 25-21-42 was broken up, I could hardly believe my eyes. I know I read a quote from Bruce that they weren't performing well, but that was weakly supported by their play in the most generous scenario.

There was also, as other posters have mentioned, the great effort in Edmonton that was absolutely killed by poor luck/bad penalties and its resultant confidence dashing. There was the absurd cavalcade of Semin penalties (both deserved and reputation-based). There was the continued lackluster-with-occasional-glimmers-of-past-glory play of Ovechkin. There were stupid mistakes and hot goalies and bag skates and endless controversies and personality clashes. There was never a single game with cohesive lines, never a single game with consistent D pairs.

Through those first 7 games, we were considered to have one of the deepest blue lines in the league and a coach with the luxury to roll 4 lines with impunity.

So, take away Mike Green, and all of a sudden, the coach can't coach, all the D is incompetent, with the exception of Karl Alzner, and not a single forward is good for anything, except Nicklas Backstrom?

Or, maybe, take away Mike Green, and the coach tries out absolutely everything in the coaching bag of tricks to explore what his team has got, how they adapt, how they respond to various accountability measures, how they step up, who does what, when, where, and how?

I'm not saying that this is what happened. I'm just saying, is it possible, that, with a great start on the entire league, and the opportunity for some serious testing presenting itself (Green's injury), that BB and GMGM might have decided to throw absolutely everything at the wall to see what stuck?

It is, after all, November. I'd sure as hell rather see them test every possible permutation and iteration of this team out now, rather than have something unexpected fall apart later in the year or in the playoffs. Especially if the prevailing opinion from the top of the organization down to the lowliest fan is that the regular season doesn't matter anyway.

Obviously, even if this crackpot theory of mine has any validity (and it is riddled with problems and holes, for all the very good support I can see for it), it is dangerous. Who's to say that some of the moves don't cause real structural damage? Who's to say that it doesn't worsen things that might already have been a problem? Who's to say you can get it back on track at will? Who's to say that even if it worked in November, things that tested successfully in the fall wouldn't flame out in the spring?

Even if it isn't true, and they really are as lost as they have seemed through many of the past 12 games, it's a comforting thought. Because BB isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. And neither are Sasha, Ovi, Green, or any of the other ridiculous trade/fire calls I've seen in the past week and a half from this ridiculously spoiled and privileged fanbase. (Yes, it sucks to be repeatedly bounced from the playoffs in the first and second round, and makes it hard for us to crow, but we are still blessed with --mostly--an amazing amount of entertainment for our hockey investment.)

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11-23-2011, 05:51 AM
  #545
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I agree with alice - great post. I speculated something similar earlier in the year, what's the point of a cakewalk to first with a static lineup. When he has to adjust to a tactical coach in game 2 of the playoffs, we would be dead in the water yet again, and make changes on a hope and a prayer. Why wait until Green gets injured in April to test splitting up Alzner and Carlson. Really?

Again I agree with Alice in that we still have holes, but what we are seeing with his mega shuffling while it ain't broke, and the result - the team struggling, is just him preparing for adversity.

I like the move, but not over addressing more pressing issues with the team. Sort out the system, and then shuffle the interchangeable parts. He has to sort out Ovi, get him integrated into a team wide breakout and entry scheme. We are far too sloppy in all zones to expect a cup this year. Maybe its "our turn" this year, but I hate seeing Ovi's dominant years slowly passing him by as we wait our turn. We need our coach to grab the bull by the horns, and make it our turn.

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11-23-2011, 09:06 AM
  #546
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Or, maybe, take away Mike Green, and the coach tries out absolutely everything in the coaching bag of tricks to explore what his team has got, how they adapt, how they respond to various accountability measures, how they step up, who does what, when, where, and how?
That seems to be in part what this regular season is about: psychological warfare to instill a greater amount of mental toughness. Whether it's the scratch rotation or lineup placement, they're trying. At times it just seems like they're overcompensating to an extent. It may be too little too late in getting some of these dogs to hunt differently when this should have been the approach all along. But they were doing this sort of stuff prior to Green's injury even and their first losing streak. One of problems may be that it is just November and the players don't share the day-to-day urgency at this point.
Quote:
Who's to say that some of the moves don't cause real structural damage? Who's to say that it doesn't worsen things that might already have been a problem? Who's to say you can get it back on track at will? Who's to say that even if it worked in November, things that tested successfully in the fall wouldn't flame out in the spring?
Problem is I don't really see any experimentation from a systematic perspective, which Green's injury should have provided them at least in the way of tightening up or smoothing out their breakouts. They've struggled not by trying new things so much as not being sharp/smart at what they normally do and some of the D not stepping up in enhanced roles.

Aside from Boudreau being more about discipline and whatnot, I haven't seen much new aside from some of those early looks on the PP. They still lack the sort of disciplined, organized structure that a well-oiled team needs to have, in part because their effort level varies so greatly. Ultimately it's on the coach to have them executing at that level and it still goes back to scheming, preparing and practicing at a high level.


Last edited by Langway: 11-23-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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11-23-2011, 10:06 AM
  #547
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See how much the league has "figured out" when green gets back.
I guess my concern with this is its a problem if everything hinges on a player that cant seem to stay healthy enough to either be on the ice, or healthy enough to be productive while on the ice come playoffs

Counting on Green for success in the spring is fine if he is a proven playoff performer who is closer to an iron man than fragile.....but he isnt

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11-23-2011, 05:33 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Aliceanna View Post
You're not making it up. I believe it happened more than once, but I know it happened on a PP goal that was set up by Green, Wideman crossed behind him, and I think they set up Backstrom for a goal. However, I could just as easily remember either Green or Wideman scoring on it, so I'm inclined to say it happened more than I'm specifically recalling.

Beyond the specifics of the power play, though, this comment goes to something I've been thinking in the larger sense. Those first 7 games, the Caps did a whole lot of things right. The "meat and potatoes" Chimera-Laich-Ward line was amazing. Dennis Wideman had a decent PPG streak. Mike Green was a boss. Boudreau sat a couple guys here or there who came back out to have huge games--and sometimes several, in the case of MoJo.

What has happened since then? Green was injured. In the wake of that, every single little thing that could possibly be shuffled was. The first time 25-21-42 was broken up, I could hardly believe my eyes. I know I read a quote from Bruce that they weren't performing well, but that was weakly supported by their play in the most generous scenario.

There was also, as other posters have mentioned, the great effort in Edmonton that was absolutely killed by poor luck/bad penalties and its resultant confidence dashing. There was the absurd cavalcade of Semin penalties (both deserved and reputation-based). There was the continued lackluster-with-occasional-glimmers-of-past-glory play of Ovechkin. There were stupid mistakes and hot goalies and bag skates and endless controversies and personality clashes. There was never a single game with cohesive lines, never a single game with consistent D pairs.

Through those first 7 games, we were considered to have one of the deepest blue lines in the league and a coach with the luxury to roll 4 lines with impunity.

So, take away Mike Green, and all of a sudden, the coach can't coach, all the D is incompetent, with the exception of Karl Alzner, and not a single forward is good for anything, except Nicklas Backstrom?

Or, maybe, take away Mike Green, and the coach tries out absolutely everything in the coaching bag of tricks to explore what his team has got, how they adapt, how they respond to various accountability measures, how they step up, who does what, when, where, and how?

I'm not saying that this is what happened. I'm just saying, is it possible, that, with a great start on the entire league, and the opportunity for some serious testing presenting itself (Green's injury), that BB and GMGM might have decided to throw absolutely everything at the wall to see what stuck?

It is, after all, November. I'd sure as hell rather see them test every possible permutation and iteration of this team out now, rather than have something unexpected fall apart later in the year or in the playoffs. Especially if the prevailing opinion from the top of the organization down to the lowliest fan is that the regular season doesn't matter anyway.

Obviously, even if this crackpot theory of mine has any validity (and it is riddled with problems and holes, for all the very good support I can see for it), it is dangerous. Who's to say that some of the moves don't cause real structural damage? Who's to say that it doesn't worsen things that might already have been a problem? Who's to say you can get it back on track at will? Who's to say that even if it worked in November, things that tested successfully in the fall wouldn't flame out in the spring?

Even if it isn't true, and they really are as lost as they have seemed through many of the past 12 games, it's a comforting thought. Because BB isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. And neither are Sasha, Ovi, Green, or any of the other ridiculous trade/fire calls I've seen in the past week and a half from this ridiculously spoiled and privileged fanbase. (Yes, it sucks to be repeatedly bounced from the playoffs in the first and second round, and makes it hard for us to crow, but we are still blessed with --mostly--an amazing amount of entertainment for our hockey investment.)
I believe this too, I rather find the issues with lines etc in Oct, Nov, and Dec. However the new NHL doesn't allow for too much time with so many different teams fighting for playoff spots. Personally, I would like to see the Chimera-Laich-Ward line stay together all year without anymore tinkering. They have proven they have chemistry and effective. I do agree and I'm guilty of it with criticism of the Caps and the coach, but when it boils down to it, you don't know what you have until its gone. I don't think my criticism of BB will change though and anger for GMGM doesn't go unnoticed. GMGM knew years ago we needed defense and he vaguely addressed those issues and continues to do so.

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