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Markham, Ontario planning to build a 19,000 seat arena
No you fools! Build it in a location central to Mississauga/Brampton/Oakville! Over a 1.2 M population between those three cities and growing.
And York Region has a population of Over 1 Million and is growing. Plus Markham literally bleeds into Toronto and Thornhill/Richmond Hill which bleeds into Vaughan & Oak Ridges/Aurora/Newmarket.
(By bleeds into I mean that aside from a Sign you can't tell where one city ends and the other begins)
Downsview is a viable option. I completely agree that this location is terrible in my opnion.
Downsview is terrible to drive to and you can only take the Subway if you're coming from the South or in the future if you're Very close from the North.
My congrats when/if this gets built but lol at Markham getting a nhl team.. A base population of 300000 to draw from.. I guess they can get support from other cow pastures such as Stouville Aurora.. The rest of GTA won't drive out there on a weeknight. Have you seen the traffic. You could walk from Toronto to Markham and get there faster than driving..
I guess it does have it's pluses though.. It's fairly close to Oshawa they'll support them.
Signed
Bitter Hamilton Hopeful.
The 407 and the Viva buses both move pretty quickly.
There's also a GO Station right next door to the proposed site.
honestly... how many concerts could they attract? Consider the area around the ACC is undergoing a massive massive residential boom (within 1-2 blocks are a 67, 57, 35, 16 and 12 storey condo tower, a soon to be built 75 storey condo and a proposed twin 70 storey condo tower), I would think ACC would stand to draw more of the concerts.
Asked...
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If this project is green lighted, the expectation is the arena will be economically viable even without a major spots tenant, that concert and show promoter Live Nation and arena management firm Global Spectrum are said to have some interest as well.
I would guess that once you factor in the arena, the cost of a franchise, and the cost of making nice with the Leafs you would be talking about $900M-1B to put a franchise in TO. I really have to wonder how this makes sense when you may very well end up being hockey's version of the LA Clippers.
I think youd be guaranteeing yourself insolvency Fourier. By the time you got finished paying for the land, infrastructure, arena & surrounding developments, the cost of an expansion franchise or purchase of a club with relo fee's and indemnifications youd' be so far up the creek it would take about 3 generations to find your way out & downstream to open water.
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac
The positioning of an arena in Markham would be smart in my opinion. You draw a crowd from Barrie, Markham and all the Toronto suburbs north and north east.
Well why not Barrie then?. Its one of the fastest growing municipalities in Canada and makes more sense than Markham, Vaughan or Woodbine. Mind though Jason, Highway 10 is a treacherous nightmare to be driving on many a winters night. Still, I guess you guys could always just roll across farmers fields in your Leopard Tanks, straightlining over to Kempenfelt Bay.
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Originally Posted by Grudy0
All it could take are a couple of enterprising Canadians upset with the NHL...
Bingo. You take the Habs & Canucks, Rangers, Wings, Chicago, Philly, LA & the other choice locations and exit. See ya. If they arent willing, then you go nuclear, push the button and start-up a competitive league sans salary cap etc etc etc. If the league thinks they can just drop another team in Toronto, wheres next?. Dangerous precedent.
Let's just assume the NHL moved in. Would Marham basically the Islanders to New York's Rangers?
Yup. And the Sens would be the Sabres.
As for the topic, I don't have much knowledge about this. I figured Markham would have their odds stacked against them with the whole territorial thing, and the fact that Quebec City, with its recent surge in the media, is practically the next city in line for a team.
So far I'm not even convinced that Quebec even will get a team, so the thought of a S. Ontario team just seems a little out there.
Who are the Leafs/Marlies' current ECHL affiliate? They could move a team to Markham (for the time being) and make them their new affiliate, which would reduce travel costs and could make the arena a big draw to Leaf fans in the area.
IMO York and the Area has more Money than Hamilton. This would be a better bet so attendance does not drop during a recession. Hamilton is a poor city. and there is 3.5 million around it, but that includes K-W and Oakville/Burlington, the latter are part of the GTA.
One interesting twist here is the jurisdictional issue - whether a Leaf challenge to a hypothetical NHL approval under 36.4(c) would be heard in US or Canadian Courts, under US or Canadian Law, or both (especially if the Leafs are challenging the relocation of a US based team). I would guess that the primary challenge would be under the CCB and Ontario courts.
The CCB's preliminary advisory ruling that the NHL's relocation policy did not violate the Competition Act was based on By-Law 36 being in effect - simple majority rule and no single team veto.
The Leafs might be in a Catch-22 here. If they challenge By-Law 36 as being an invalid de facto amendment to the NHL Constitution (which would have required a unanimous vote), they risk By-Law 36 being invalidated, which could lead to the CCB ruling that the territorial restrictions of Section 4 violate the Competition Act and are thus unenforceable - the net result would be a team would be free to move to Markham with no vote, no veto, no restrictions, and no territorial rights fees (which were one of the considerations in the vote under 36.4).
In other words, the Leafs could save money by taking whatever compesation Bettman and Mr Bratty decide.
IMO York and the Area has more Money than Hamilton. This would be a better bet so attendance does not drop during a recession. Hamilton is a poor city. .
gonna need a link showing that, esp the poor part.
imagine you are the new owners of MLSE.. dropped 1.8 bill. than you have 2 cities looking to add teams in your territory.. youd almost steal MLSE after its all said and done..
What about the average cost of living though? I mean, it all has to be relative to something, sure Hamilton might not make as much money, but is their cost of living lower? And at that point, does it all begin to even out?
What about the average cost of living though? I mean, it all has to be relative to something, sure Hamilton might not make as much money, but is their cost of living lower? And at that point, does it all begin to even out?
Yeah average costing of living in Hamilton is lower, but not as many people work in Hamilton as Toronto(Downtown.)
imagine you are the new owners of MLSE.. dropped 1.8 bill. than you have 2 cities looking to add teams in your territory.. youd almost steal MLSE after its all said and done..
Sure. You could theoretically acquire the Leafs & the ACC for the price of a ham sandwich. Welcome a team to Hamilton, maybe another to Markham. $100M+ each along with the arena management, buildings naming rights sales, concessions and parking at both facilities, for the next 20-30yrs. Broadcast rights?. Just sign those over please & thank you. Sell off the Raptors, Marlies & the Ricoh; TFC. Keep the Jewel in the Crown with the Leafs, the ACC & the developments down by the waterfront. You will also sign non-competition clauses, and your ticket prices have to be set within 10% of those paid by our patrons at the ACC. On & on.
"Extortion is a messy business Gentlemen. Go away & think it over. Im busy". Ernst Stavro Blofeld
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Originally Posted by tp71
What about the average cost of living though? I mean, it all has to be relative to something, sure Hamilton might not make as much money, but is their cost of living lower? And at that point, does it all begin to even out?
Theres a ton of off-shore money in Markham, primarily from Hong Kong. Land & housing prices in that burb, like Vancouver, are artificially inflated as a result. Comparisons are quite useless & ultimately meaningless.
Plus youve already got a building. This is not an argument anyone anywhere else in the GTA can win...
Oh, and Paris dronald. Dont forget Paris. I have roots back there.
I'd say there is way more money in Markham than there is in Hamilton. Seems like almost everybody that lives in Unionville, is a CEO or has their own Biz. Seems like most of Hamilton is blue collar and has plenty of boarded up storefronts.
Plus youve already got a building. This is not an argument anyone anywhere else in the GTA can win...
Oh, and Paris dronald. Dont forget Paris. I have roots back there.
In other words, the Leafs could save money by taking whatever compesation Bettman and Mr Bratty decide.
Maybe. But here's where things get worse...
Let's go back to the bankruptcy case that Mr Balsillie started in Phoenix. The judge in that bankruptcy case basically gave the NHL the right to charge a relocation fee, which is present in By-Law 36 (more on that later). Therefore, according to the NHL's Constitution, By-Laws and current case law, the NHL could actually sell the Coyotes to Mr Balsille for $200 million and then charge another $200 million to relocate to Hamilton as long as a majority of the NHL teams approve the move. Technically, that would leave the Leafs with NOTHING.
That is why there are other mechanisms in the Constitution and By-Laws to prevent this exact scenario. Section 4.3 of the NHL Constitution itself gives its members a home territory, defined as 50 miles around the city limits where the franchise plays, and that no other team may be granted a home territory within a current members home territory without said member's consent.
So, the short of it is that if the NHL allows the sale under the guise of By-Law 36, the Leafs may try to upend it. For example, everyone is talking about the majority vote, but there is another section of 36 that needs attention:
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By-Law 36.6
Any such consent by the Member Clubs may be made subject to reasonable and appropriate conditions, including payment to the League of a transfer fee to reflect the goodwill developed by the League in the new location, and/or payment of an indemnification fee (or fees) to reflect the goodwill developed by a neighboring member (or members) in the new location.
It still appears to me that the Leafs get to dictate their indemnification fee, even with By-Law 36, with the caveat that the indemnification fee must be "reasonable and appropriate". Combined with Section 4 of the NHL Constitution, I'm beginning to think the Leafs are fairly bulletproof in their demands unless a court overturns both By-Law 36 and Section 4 of the NHL Constitution. If that happens, it's open season.
By-Law 36.4(c).
One interesting twist here is the jurisdictional issue - whether a Leaf challenge to a hypothetical NHL approval under 36.4(c) would be heard in US or Canadian Courts, under US or Canadian Law, or both (especially if the Leafs are challenging the relocation of a US based team). I would guess that the primary challenge would be under the CCB and Ontario courts.
The CCB's preliminary advisory ruling that the NHL's relocation policy did not violate the Competition Act was based on By-Law 36 being in effect - simple majority rule and no single team veto....The Leafs might be in a Catch-22 here. If they challenge By-Law 36 as being an invalid de facto amendment to the NHL Constitution (which would have required a unanimous vote), they risk By-Law 36 being invalidated, which could lead to the CCB ruling that the territorial restrictions of Section 4 violate the Competition Act and are thus unenforceable - the net result would be a team would be free to move to Markham with no vote, no veto, no restrictions, and no territorial rights fees (which were one of the considerations in the vote under 36.4).
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Originally Posted by Grudy0
Maybe. But here's where things get worse... Let's go back to the bankruptcy case that Mr Balsillie started in Phoenix. The judge in that bankruptcy case basically gave the NHL the right to charge a relocation fee, which is present in By-Law 36 (more on that later). Therefore, according to the NHL's Constitution, By-Laws and current case law, the NHL could actually sell the Coyotes to Mr Balsille for $200 million and then charge another $200 million to relocate to Hamilton as long as a majority of the NHL teams approve the move. Technically, that would leave the Leafs with NOTHING.
That is why there are other mechanisms in the Constitution and By-Laws to prevent this exact scenario. Section 4.3 of the NHL Constitution itself gives its members a home territory, defined as 50 miles around the city limits where the franchise plays, and that no other team may be granted a home territory within a current members home territory without said member's consent.
So, the short of it is that if the NHL allows the sale under the guise of By-Law 36, the Leafs may try to upend it. For example, everyone is talking about the majority vote, but there is another section of 36 that needs attention:It still appears to me that the Leafs get to dictate their indemnification fee, even with By-Law 36, with the caveat that the indemnification fee must be "reasonable and appropriate". Combined with Section 4 of the NHL Constitution, I'm beginning to think the Leafs are fairly bulletproof in their demands unless a court overturns both By-Law 36 and Section 4 of the NHL Constitution. If that happens, it's open season.
It would make for an extremely interesting & likely highly acrimonious case. Remember, when the CCB initially investigated the complaints it was cursory and slipshod at best. During the Moyes BK in Arizona, Balsillies' camp released a copy of a letter which pre-dated the CCB investigation and to wit they were completely unaware from MLSE Council to the NHL disputing the By-Law and demanding the league fully up-hold & comply with the Constitutional clauses pursuant to territorial rights.
kdb poses an interesting question with respect to jurisdiction. I believe the challenge would have to be heard in Ontario's Courts, with possible appeal one way or the other up to the Supremes', though I suppose there could well be a simultaneous track filed in the US particularly if its a US based team that wants to move into the GTA & or SO; along with the concerns Buffalo would likely have though in Markhams case theyd be pretty much ameliorated. Regardless, I cant help but agree with you that MLSE does indeed seem to have a "bullet proof" case in this regard, and the fact of the matter is, Im also completely against a Toronto2 franchise to begin with so in my case its a case of licking the whiskers, as in bring it on. I dare ya, or how dare the league depending upon ones perspective?. It sets a nasty precedent and its a battle that could well erupt in a nuclear implosion of the 30 team league.
There will always be unforseen cicumstances, who knows maybe Tanenbaum gives up his 21% in the Leafs for 50% of a new team in the GTA. I used 50% as an example but feel free to plug in whatever number seems fair. Maybe MLSE goes for the deal in that case.
Maybe the Leafs get sold to a new owner and maybe the new owner overextends himself or falls on hard times in other business ventures. All of a sudden a quick $50 million looks huge.
The fact that Markham would have a new building ready to go can only be viewed as a plus. Afterall with an arena, an owner and great market, three of 4 hurdles are cleared.
Well, its a shell. The sightlines are absolutely tremendous, and really, 26yrs later it still hasnt been completed. Retro-fitting Copps' & finishing the job would run you anywhere from $150-$200M if you really went to town on it, still far less than the costs of land, infrastructure, building etc that a monolith in Markham or Mississauga would run ya. Youve got an airport, hotels, all the amenities built in right there in the Hammer. Acoustically, its one of the best buildings in North America. Its the least of all evils with respect to MLSE & the ACC, and Im sure as shootin not buying any guff about the Sabres' being cremated should a team land in Hamilton. Hogswollop Sir. Utter Hogswollop.
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Originally Posted by Hockeyhopeful
Maybe the Leafs get sold to a new owner and maybe the new owner overextends himself or falls on hard times in other business ventures. All of a sudden a quick $50 million looks huge.
Sure. Thats a record setting number of "maybe's" there HH. Maybe they dont get a team. Maybe they build a $300M+ state of the art 19,000 seat arena that sits empty & dark, used occasionally by film production companies to shoot post apocalyptic back drops. Maybe an ECHL or AHL team takes up residency, drawing 2500-5000 fans a game. Maybe the Chinese Baptist Church winds up buying it for pennies on the dollar. Supermarket/House of Worship. Good luck trying to read the labels. In any aisle. Maybe....
