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Markham, Ontario planning to build a 19,000 seat arena
so anyways back to Markham.. i see you and i agree downfall is traffic..imo bigger downfall is base population..add the 2 and thats a bad combo
Traffic is a huge issue, as it would be an absolute nightmare for anyone west of Toronto (Oakville, Hamilton, Kitchener, etc) to try and get there for a 7:00 game on a weekday. You'd pretty much have to take the 407.
Population isn't an issue though. As long as they have reasonable pricing (which will be their major marketing point if they aren't stupid), I don't think they'll have any trouble attracting flocks of young people and families. Keep in mind that York Region has a comparable population to the Metro areas of Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, and is about twice that of Winnipeg. Markham also borders Durham Region, which has 3 or 4 cities over 100,000 people. And that doesn't account for Toronto, which comprises Markham's entire southern border.
Well, according to the developer & owner of Bauer's interview on Mcowns show earlier today, he has no intention of securing an anchor tenant in the form of an NHL team. He figures he can book a minimum of 70-80 concerts & events per annum & do better than break-even. The building will however be more than amenable to hosting hockey, be it the World Junior's or whatever, to wit he plans to bid. Frankly, I dont believe his claims. I mean, c'mon here. Your the President of Bauer Sports with a hockey pedigree, MLSE possibly/maybe (pre or post sale) loosening its grip in permitting an intrusion into its territory?. To get 70-80 'A' list acts youd have to be paying an awful lot of money in appearance fee guarantee's & youd be going up against MLSE/ACC along with Copps and several other smaller venues, some concert specific. A lot of smoke coming out of this one.
Well, according to the developer & owner of Bauer's interview on Mcowns show earlier today, he has no intention of securing an anchor tenant in the form of an NHL team. He figures he can book a minimum of 70-80 concerts & events per annum & do better than break-even. The building will however be more than amenable to hosting hockey, be it the World Junior's or whatever, to wit he plans to bid. Frankly, I dont believe his claims. I mean, c'mon here. Your the President of Bauer Sports with a hockey pedigree, MLSE possibly/maybe (pre or post sale) loosening its grip in permitting an intrusion into its territory?. To get 70-80 'A' list acts youd have to be paying an awful lot of money in appearance fee guarantee's & youd be going up against MLSE/ACC along with Copps and several other smaller venues, some concert specific. A lot of smoke coming out of this one.
heard that too.. he even said he didnt want one.. i call BS, he just knows that making waves when wanting a team gets you zilch.
Well, according to the developer & owner of Bauer's interview on Mcowns show earlier today, he has no intention of securing an anchor tenant in the form of an NHL team. He figures he can book a minimum of 70-80 concerts & events per annum & do better than break-even. The building will however be more than amenable to hosting hockey, be it the World Junior's or whatever, to wit he plans to bid. Frankly, I dont believe his claims. I mean, c'mon here. Your the President of Bauer Sports with a hockey pedigree, MLSE possibly/maybe (pre or post sale) loosening its grip in permitting an intrusion into its territory?. To get 70-80 'A' list acts youd have to be paying an awful lot of money in appearance fee guarantee's & youd be going up against MLSE/ACC along with Copps and several other smaller venues, some concert specific. A lot of smoke coming out of this one.
I believe him. Besides he could probably use the place to shoot some Bauer commercials. Afterall the price of ice rental is unreal around here.
Last edited by Charon of Styx: 11-24-2011 at 06:43 PM.
VIVA is cool, but I hear. Maybe the Yonge like extension to Richmond Hill would help?
Maybe for the arena, but it would make everyone else's life more difficult. The last thing the Yonge Line needs is an expansion. It is operating at above crush capacities during rush hour. Even at 10pm at night, it can be difficult to find a seat.
They just said the entire thing would cost 300 million. it's like you didn't read the news at all.
It's like you actually believe mega-project and mega-event cost estimates. I was a resident of BC back in the 1970's when they were promising "Transpo 86" for $78 million GROSS BUDGET. It finally ended up with a gross budget of $1.5 BILLION and a NET LOSS of $311 million. See the case study for the sordid details.
And oh yeah, let's not forget the Skydome fiasco, now known as Rogers Centre.
A mega-project in Canada can no more come in on budget than a man can have a baby.
They just said the entire thing would cost 300 million. it's like you didn't read the news at all.
I did read the news & I just don't think they can build a new 19.000 seat arena near Toronto for only 300 million whille new arena in Quebec City is going to cost over 400 million .
I did read the news & I just don't think they can build a new 19.000 seat arena near Toronto for only 300 million whille new arena in Quebec City is going to cost over 400 million .
The ACC cost $265M when it was built (which wikipedia lists as around $342M in 2011 terms).
I don't know much (ok, anything) about development, but I feel like it would be cheaper to build in Markham than right downtown. So idunno, it can be done I suppose. Either way, it's a far, far cry from the 1.5 billion that someone mentioned earlier.
If this so called 19.000 seat arena near Toronto is only going cost 300 million I doubt it is for an NHL. team it sound like it is going to be more like a convention centre or amphitheatre & not a hockey arena . Because a state of the art 19.000 seat NHL. arena in the Toronto area will cost a heck of lot more 300 million & more like 450 - 500 million .
If this so called 19.000 seat arena near Toronto is only going cost 300 million I doubt it is for an NHL. team it sound like it is going to be more like a convention centre or amphitheatre & not a hockey arena . Because a state of the art 19.000 seat NHL. arena in the Toronto area will cost a heck of lot more 300 million & more like 450 - 500 million .
They built the ACC for much less than you're quoting, even accounting for inflation and whatnot.
BTW, if I may add, Ken Campbell of The Hockey News just published an article stating he thinks a) this arena will get built and b) Toronto will get a second team via relocation or expansion.
Last edited by Fugu: 11-24-2011 at 09:30 PM.
Reason: ...
The ACC cost $265M when it was built (which wikipedia lists as around $342M in 2011 terms).
I don't know much (ok, anything) about development, but I feel like it would be cheaper to build in Markham than right downtown. So idunno, it can be done I suppose. Either way, it's a far, far cry from the 1.5 billion that someone mentioned earlier.
1 - 1.5 billion is the total cost of a TO2 team when you factor in all the costs of an arena , The Team , A big pay off to MLSE. & other red tape to cu through .
1 - 1.5 billion is the total cost of a TO2 team when you factor in all the costs of an arena , The Team , A big pay off to MLSE. & other red tape to cu through .
In that case, I'm wondering if this entire thread would not be "off topic" in this section? BTW, if I may add, Ken Campbell of The Hockey News just published an article stating he thinks a) this arena will get built and b) Toronto will get a second team via relocation or expansion.
Dose he really think MLSE. will let this happen with out making who ever buys the team to pay through the nose to have it play in Toronto . That is why it won't happen it is going to be more trouble than it is worth besides if they won't let Hamilton have team i doubt MLSE. will allow team play right on there own door step with out a big pay off .
Graem Rouston on the fan 590. Sorry guys as I suspected he is going to focus on Concerts and doesn't expect to have a full time tenant. Also McCowan asked him why design it like an arena instead of a full out concert venue and he said he wouldn't mind having events like World Jrs play in there etc.
Continue the mindless chatter about Toronto getting another team.. Markham is closer to Toronto than Hamilton so I don't know why many of you think this can happen when the Leafs and the NHL have shunned Hamilton.
Dose he really think MLSE. will let this happen with out making who ever buys the team to pay through the nose to have it play in Toronto . That is why it won't happen it is going to be more trouble than it is worth besides if they won't let Hamilton have team i doubt MLSE. will allow team play right on there own door step with out a big pay off .
I'm not sure. In the article he quotes Daly stating that MLSE has no veto rights to a 2nd team in the area. That's the NHL's position.
Arena - 400 million
The team - 350 million min.
MLSE. - 150 million
Sabres - 20 millon because tou know they will cry fowl & want hush money too
Other costs such as legal - 100 million
TO2 team cost = 900 million - 1 billion
Hamilton
Copps - 150 million
The team - 250 - 300 million
MLSE. - 50 million
Sabres - 30 million
Other costs - 50 million
Graem Rouston on the fan 590. Sorry guys as I suspected he is going to focus on Concerts and doesn't expect to have a full time tenant. Also McCowan asked him why design it like an arena instead of a full out concert venue and he said he wouldn't mind having events like World Jrs play in there etc.
Continue the mindless chatter about Toronto getting another team.. Markham is closer to Toronto than Hamilton so I don't know why many of you think this can happen when the Leafs and the NHL have shunned Hamilton.
Best guess? Move the marlies to markham.
People have learned from Balsillie's lack of success and TNSE's success. A few years ago a very active poster at the time who thought Winnipeg would have no chance obtaining or operating an NHL team mentioned that TNSE would be shouting from the roof tops if they wanted a team. I said, no, they would actually be doing the opposite.
You don't build a 19 - 20K sports/hockey arena for concerts alone. Sure, they probably think a 2nd arena in Toronto is viable even without a team. That's likely the case, but I wouldn't take those public comments too seriously. It's obviously a sensitive issue.
Arena - 400 million
The team - 350 million min.
MLSE. - 150 million
Sabres - 20 millon because tou know they will cry fowl & want hush money too
Other costs such as legal - 100 million
TO2 team cost = 900 million - 1 billion
Hamilton
Copps - 150 million
The team - 250 - 300 million
MLSE. - 50 million
Sabres - 30 million
Other costs - 50 million
Hamilton - 550 - 600 million
Well, if they build the arena on the east side of Toronto, Hamilton is still viable. Maybe 2 new franchises could split the payment to MLSE, if any.
I'm not sure. In the article he quotes Daly stating that MLSE has no veto rights to a 2nd team in the area. That's the NHL's position.
They say that MLSE. has no veto & to lesser exteint the Sabres but we have been getting screwed around this issue for the past 25 years so I would put much stock in what daly says . It will make me sick to my stomach if Toronto gets 2nd team after all the crap the NHL. , MLSE. , Sabres put the city of Hamilton through over the past 25 years .
Arena - 400 million
The team - 350 million min.
MLSE. - 150 million
Sabres - 20 millon because tou know they will cry fowl & want hush money too
Other costs such as legal - 100 million
TO2 team cost = 900 million - 1 billion
Hamilton
Copps - 150 million
The team - 250 - 300 million
MLSE. - 50 million
Sabres - 30 million
Other costs - 50 million
Hamilton - 550 - 600 million
Copps would need to be replaced, renovation wouldn't be enough. I'm pretty sure NHL high ups have flat out said that in the past. It's not suitable, and barring massive investment, could not be brought up to modern NHL standards. It would be much easier to build a new arena. Copps would only figure in as a temporary venue if an ownership group got hold of a team before they could actually build the arena. Say an arena project with financing conditioned on getting an NHL team.
Team costs would be about the same, since you're still advertizing in the same media market, playing under the same cap, heating and cooling similar venues, so on and so forth. And legal costs wouldn't be nearly that high, and would probably be provided by in house council, so included in the team budget if there was really that much work. You're on the order of 1 million over a year with those, not 100 million. Also, that's another cost that wouldn't be markedly different in Hamilton.
As for the leafs and sabres compensation, I doubt they would be as dissimilar in Hamilton and Toronto as you think. Well, Buffalo might be, but the payment to the leafs would probably be pretty similar.
I doubt there is going to be 2nd NHL. team in Toronto because the NHL. has no intrest in putting a 2nd NHL. team in Toronto . The NHL. dose want to put a 2nd NHL. team in southern ontario but not in the GTA. but in southwestern ontario because that is where the NHL. & any prospective owner can the best bang for there bucks & after all Hamilton is the best place to invest in in ontario & 3rd best nationally .
Copps would need to be replaced, renovation wouldn't be enough. I'm pretty sure NHL high ups have flat out said that in the past. It's not suitable, and barring massive investment, could not be brought up to modern NHL standards. It would be much easier to build a new arena. Copps would only figure in as a temporary venue if an ownership group got hold of a team before they could actually build the arena. Say an arena project with financing conditioned on getting an NHL team.
Team costs would be about the same, since you're still advertizing in the same media market, playing under the same cap, heating and cooling similar venues, so on and so forth. And legal costs wouldn't be nearly that high, and would probably be provided by in house council, so included in the team budget if there was really that much work. You're on the order of 1 million over a year with those, not 100 million. Also, that's another cost that wouldn't be markedly different in Hamilton.
As for the leafs and sabres compensation, I doubt they would be as dissimilar in Hamilton and Toronto as you think. Well, Buffalo might be, but the payment to the leafs would probably be pretty similar.
Copps Colliseum was built with future renovations in mind such as the foot print of copps is more than double the size of the avg. arena , The roof of Copps can be lifted to add boxes & addtional seating ect. . The est. cost of renovating Copps is about 100 - 150 million dollars which would extend the life of the arena for about 40 -50 years .
Copps Colliseum was built with future renovations in mind such as the foot print of copps is more than double the size of the avg. arena , The roof of Copps can be lifted to add boxes & addtional seating ect. . The est. cost of renovating Copps is about 100 - 150 million dollars which would extend the life of the arena for about 40 -50 years .
Actually, during Saint Jimmy's attack on Phoenix we seen figures at 50 mil to get to the old girl up to NHL standards, whatever that means, the 150 mil was to give it a facelift.
Can't wait to see the arena and area design plans for Markham..
