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Nick Foligno Embracing Fresh Start, Should He Be in Long Term Plans?

View Poll Results: Should Nick Foligno be a part of the long term plans for Ottawa?
Yes 62 63.92%
No 10 10.31%
Unsure 25 25.77%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-24-2011, 09:37 AM
  #51
Kid Canesten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSF View Post
Ottawa is rebuilding not sure if you got the memo or not. This is when you should be taking risks on unproven young guys to try and fill a need ie 2nd line center role.

If our team was as good as Pittsburghs or Boston we probably wouldnt be talking about Turris..but we arent. I guess trading Yashin got 2nd overall (potential) and Chara (potential) was a bad move in your books

Sometimes they pan out and sometimes you a hit a home run. you wont know unless you try which is what rebuilding teams do
absolutely, i was just responding to the previous poster who was asking what's with all the love turris is receiving. i would love for the senators to trade for turris as long as we dont overpay.

reading over my response, it does seem like im not content with the idea with trading for high risk, high reward prospects, but that is not the case at all.

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11-24-2011, 02:18 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
I wasn't suggesting they ALL would make it, just that the Sens have alternative top six material and some will make it. So unless Nick breaks out offensively,he will be in tough for a top six position in the near future. So Murray needs to decide if he is worth more now than he might be as a third or fourth liner in two years.

He's a 35 point per 82 game, gritty, hard working, two-way player ---> as long as he is that, he's never going to be any less than a 3rd line player on this or any team in the entire league.

If Foligno is on our 4th line in the coming seasons, we're celebrating a Stanley Cup victory.

I don't understand the comments I see on a regular basis about him being a 4th liner through his career or occasional mention of possibly becoming a 1st liner. He's been a similar player for the past 3 years in Ottawa, based on talent and league averages. That player is a #6-7, 2nd/3rd line tweener. He's doesn't look like he's going to evolve much from that range; I personally couldn't see him becoming a best 2nd liner or the worst 3rd liner on the average team... so even if you want to get wild N crazy with his potential career range; at this point you should only be debating within #5-8. The further away you get from that is moving closer towards absurdity.

Foligno's range = 1,2,3...4,5,6...7,8,9...10,11,12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
You can make any argument you would like for Nick, but players like Da Costa, Silfverberg, Zibby, Hoffman, even Filatov should he stay, all have huge upside compare to Nick at this point in time.
"Huge upside"? ... Zibanejad is the only prospect in the organization with a good chance of being above 50 points for much of his career. The rest? We'd be lucky to end up with 1-3 success stories of 2nd liners who crack 50+ once or twice in their careers. And some of those prospects are smaller, softer, 1-way players... so would they actually be guaranteed to be better than Foligno if they maxed out their potential?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Murray said recently in an interview, the best line has been Condra, Smith and Daugavins. These guys are all younger than Foligno, new to the NHL, and doing a great job. Why drop them to the fourth line for Foligno or even Neil for that matter.
Because Condra and Daugavins are 4th liners right now?

Condra is a year older than Foligno. Smith is 6 months younger and Daugavins is 7 months younger. Foligno is still a better player and is higher on the depth chart than all 3 of them. He will probably remain above them on NHL depth charts for his entire career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
While I don't believe all the prospects are ready, there is a full line of kids in Zibby, da Costa and Silfverberg, that were very close this year, the Sens have to make room.
No, prospects have to make you want to make room... by actually making the team and outperforming veteran players.

Even then, there are probably only 3 players virtually guaranteed to be here over Foligno two years from now (Spezza, Michalek, Zibanejad). Everybody else you see on the roster is closer to the bubble than Foligno and none of the other prospects have proven enough to be held up a "virtual guarantees".

Quote:
Originally Posted by brisbane sens fan View Post
then Foligno would be bumped out, because like you said he would hold more value in trade than to the team.
Long before Foligno would ever be bumped out:
1- Konokpa wouldn't be re-signed.
2- Winchester wouldn't be re-signed.
3- Daugavins would be moved.
4- DaCosta would be moved.
5- Condra would be moved.
6- Alfie would retire.
7- Butler would be moved.
8- Neil would be moved or retire.
9- Greening would be moved.
10- Z.Smith would be moved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by In Anderson We Trust View Post
I'd say sign him to a 2 year deal (maybe 3 if the price is right) and then if he doesn't turn into the consistent 20+ goal scorer he can be then let him leave or trade him to make room for the young guys.


How about this crazy suggestion?

If in 2 years, we have 3 full lines of players better than he is; at that point and only at that point, would Foligno ever become expendable.

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Old
11-25-2011, 12:33 PM
  #53
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I agree with Trent on Foligno, he will be here for the next few yrs or longer. What I don't agree with is that I think Z. Smith & Greening are a little higher on the depth chart since I think they can both do a little more. Smith is tougher, better on the PK, is very good at faceoffs & if he can continue to produce offensively seems to be just as good offensively. Greening can play on any line, is bigger, tougher, faster & again needs to produce consistently to match Foligno offensively. All three can play LW or C.

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11-25-2011, 01:49 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post


Long before Foligno would ever be bumped out:
1- Konokpa wouldn't be re-signed.
2- Winchester wouldn't be re-signed.
3- Daugavins would be moved.
4- DaCosta would be moved.
5- Condra would be moved.
6- Alfie would retire.
7- Butler would be moved.
8- Neil would be moved or retire.
9- Greening would be moved.
10- Z.Smith would be moved.
Neil would retire, but if the organization had to trade between the two for similar return today, it would be Foligno leaving and quite easily.

Greening is more effective than Foligno in any line he plays. I see no justification other than your continued dislike for Greening for some reason.

Zack Smith brings more to the team than Foligno, even if he is to score less points, especially with his physical tools and continuous improvement in 2-way plays. He is leading the PK in and around the perimeter. If the guy was a little smarter than a goat, we would be seeing a prime Shane Corson light.

Last year, Foligno looked lost under CC. This year, I am happier with his performance. The guy has the necessary talent to mold himself into a two-way player. If he does, instead of being focused on being an offensive catalyst (by the org and/or in his mind), Ottawa can have a good-to-great 3rd liner.

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11-25-2011, 01:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by armani View Post
Neil would retire, but if the organization had to trade between the two for similar return today, it would be Foligno leaving and quite easily.

Greening is more effective than Foligno in any line he plays. I see no justification other than your continued dislike for Greening for some reason.

Zack Smith brings more to the team than Foligno, even if he is to score less points, especially with his physical tools and continuous improvement in 2-way plays. He is leading the PK in and around the perimeter. If the guy was a little smarter than a goat, we would be seeing a prime Shane Corson light.

Last year, Foligno looked lost. This year, I am happier with his performance. The guy has the necessary talent to mold himself into a two-way player. If he does, instead of being focused on being an offensive catalyst (by the org and/or in his mind), Ottawa can have a good-to-great 3rd liner.
Agreed.

Foligno's a fine NHLer but he isn't one of the teams top priorities. Or atleast shouldn't be.

Would take Smith going forward over Foligno no question.

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11-25-2011, 01:55 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
Neil would retire, but if the organization had to trade between the two for similar return today, it would be Foligno leaving and quite easily.

Greening is more effective than Foligno in any line he plays. I see no justification other than your continued dislike for Greening for some reason.

Zack Smith brings more to the team than Foligno, even if he is to score less points, especially with his physical tools and continuous improvement in 2-way plays. He is leading the PK in and around the perimeter. If the guy was a little smarter than a goat, we would be seeing a prime Shane Corson light.
Last year, Foligno looked lost under CC. This year, I am happier with his performance. The guy has the necessary talent to mold himself into a two-way player. If he does, instead of being focused on being an offensive catalyst (by the org and/or in his mind), Ottawa can have a good-to-great 3rd liner.
Great comparision,what he lacks in smarts he makes up a lttle in just pure reckless abandon

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Old
11-25-2011, 03:23 PM
  #57
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11-26-2011, 07:55 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
Greening is more effective than Foligno in any line he plays. I see no justification other than your continued dislike for Greening for some reason.
I don't dislike Greening. But I believe that Greening is a much less independent offensive player than Foligno, so much so that if they played in the same situations.... he'd probably put up 2/3 to 1/2 of what Foligno what produce.

And stuff like this isn't helping:
Greening stapled to Spezza = 10 points/22 GP with 2:38 PP time/game
Foligno with DaCosta/Smith = 12 points/22 GP with 0:57 PP time/game

Or this:
24yo Greening AHL = 59 GP / 40 Pts / 0.68 PPG
24yo AHL Playoffs = 23 GP / 5 pts / 0.22 PPG

19yo Foligno AHL = 28 GP / 19 Pts / 0.68 PPG
19yo NHL playoffs = 4 GP / 1 Pts / 0.25 PPG

If the two are fighting over 1 spot in the top-6, Foligno should get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Would take Smith going forward over Foligno no question.
But half of this current forward corps would go before Foligno, correct?

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11-26-2011, 08:20 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

But half of this current forward corps would go before Foligno, correct?
He's one of our 6 best forwards. That does need to change going forward. He's refined and never hurts you but on a good team he's too simple and limited in ability to succeed in a scoring role. I expect he'll be here for a while as he's a good pro and can play in any spot without killing you.

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11-26-2011, 08:26 AM
  #60
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IMO Foligno is underrated but I think he would be better in Spezza line than Greening. Spezza needs powerforward to him and Foligno is better than Greening. I am sure when Greening would play with Da Costa he would be worse than Foligno there. Colin is the third line player in Sens, in better team the fourth line player, but MacLean does the roster according typology of players thats why he is in the first line.

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11-26-2011, 08:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kid Canesten View Post
absolutely, i was just responding to the previous poster who was asking what's with all the love turris is receiving. i would love for the senators to trade for turris as long as we dont overpay.

reading over my response, it does seem like im not content with the idea with trading for high risk, high reward prospects, but that is not the case at all.
oh ok sorry then must have read your post wrong

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11-26-2011, 11:34 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
IMO Foligno is underrated but I think he would be better in Spezza line than Greening. Spezza needs powerforward to him and Foligno is better than Greening. I am sure when Greening would play with Da Costa he would be worse than Foligno there. Colin is the third line player in Sens, in better team the fourth line player, but MacLean does the roster according typology of players thats why he is in the first line.
I disagree. I feel as though Greening's speed is very underrated attribute (maybe not on the Sens board, but to everyone else) and gives him the edge of that line. Greening does everything we need on that line; Good along the boards, hits, crashes the net, good defensively and actually has quite a nice shot (though most of his goals have been Holmstromish). Playing with Spezza and Michalek who are both fast guys themselves, being able to keep up is a huge thing and I doubt Foligno could.

While I do think Foligno is underrated by a lot of Sens fans, I don't agree he'd be a better fit on that line. I see Nick as a great 3rd liner, who could fill a 2nd line spot if needed and not look out of place. I think Greening is a 3rd liner who just was able to find chemistry on the 1st line, and why mess with that?

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11-26-2011, 12:24 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
Neil would retire, but if the organization had to trade between the two for similar return today, it would be Foligno leaving and quite easily.

Greening is more effective than Foligno in any line he plays. I see no justification other than your continued dislike for Greening for some reason.

Zack Smith brings more to the team than Foligno, even if he is to score less points, especially with his physical tools and continuous improvement in 2-way plays. He is leading the PK in and around the perimeter. If the guy was a little smarter than a goat, we would be seeing a prime Shane Corson light.

Last year, Foligno looked lost under CC. This year, I am happier with his performance. The guy has the necessary talent to mold himself into a two-way player. If he does, instead of being focused on being an offensive catalyst (by the org and/or in his mind), Ottawa can have a good-to-great 3rd liner.
This, only more harsh. Neil, Greening and Smith way over Foligno, and I find the comparison insulting to Neil, who people sadly continuously try to discredit.

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11-26-2011, 04:51 PM
  #64
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11-26-2011, 04:55 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelace View Post
I disagree. I feel as though Greening's speed is very underrated attribute (maybe not on the Sens board, but to everyone else) and gives him the edge of that line. Greening does everything we need on that line; Good along the boards, hits, crashes the net, good defensively and actually has quite a nice shot (though most of his goals have been Holmstromish). Playing with Spezza and Michalek who are both fast guys themselves, being able to keep up is a huge thing and I doubt Foligno could.

While I do think Foligno is underrated by a lot of Sens fans, I don't agree he'd be a better fit on that line. I see Nick as a great 3rd liner, who could fill a 2nd line spot if needed and not look out of place. I think Greening is a 3rd liner who just was able to find chemistry on the 1st line, and why mess with that?
And did you try him there (with Spezza)? Not. Maybe I am wrong but IMO when this line will be in the crisis you could try Foligno there. Of course not now.

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11-26-2011, 07:02 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
And did you try him there (with Spezza)? Not. Maybe I am wrong but IMO when this line will be in the crisis you could try Foligno there. Of course not now.
This is his 5th year in the NHL. Hes played with Spezza before. It didn't work.

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11-26-2011, 07:05 PM
  #67
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This is his 5th year in the NHL. Hes played with Spezza before. It didn't work.
That's not entirely true. I can remember back in the '10 playoffs when he was playing with Spezza and Regin for that memorable game 5 triple OT game. That line was great and Foligno would have had the OT winner he had an extra millisecond to get his stick on a puck that he kicked in.

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12-06-2011, 04:17 PM
  #68
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In his last 81 games, Foligno has posted a line of 81-21-24-45.

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12-06-2011, 04:20 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
In his last 81 games, Foligno has posted a line of 81-21-24-45.
That's awesome to hear!!!

I don't think 20-25 goals is out of the question this year.

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12-06-2011, 04:40 PM
  #70
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crystal ball or folignos relative

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post

He's a 35 point per 82 game, gritty, hard working, two-way player ---> as long as he is that, he's never going to be any less than a 3rd line player on this or any team in the entire league.

If Foligno is on our 4th line in the coming seasons, we're celebrating a Stanley Cup victory.

I don't understand the comments I see on a regular basis about him being a 4th liner through his career or occasional mention of possibly becoming a 1st liner. He's been a similar player for the past 3 years in Ottawa, based on talent and league averages. That player is a #6-7, 2nd/3rd line tweener. He's doesn't look like he's going to evolve much from that range; I personally couldn't see him becoming a best 2nd liner or the worst 3rd liner on the average team... so even if you want to get wild N crazy with his potential career range; at this point you should only be debating within #5-8. The further away you get from that is moving closer towards absurdity.

Foligno's range = 1,2,3...4,5,6...7,8,9...10,11,12



"Huge upside"? ... Zibanejad is the only prospect in the organization with a good chance of being above 50 points for much of his career. The rest? We'd be lucky to end up with 1-3 success stories of 2nd liners who crack 50+ once or twice in their careers. And some of those prospects are smaller, softer, 1-way players... so would they actually be guaranteed to be better than Foligno if they maxed out their potential?



Because Condra and Daugavins are 4th liners right now?

Condra is a year older than Foligno. Smith is 6 months younger and Daugavins is 7 months younger. Foligno is still a better player and is higher on the depth chart than all 3 of them. He will probably remain above them on NHL depth charts for his entire career.



No, prospects have to make you want to make room... by actually making the team and outperforming veteran players.

Even then, there are probably only 3 players virtually guaranteed to be here over Foligno two years from now (Spezza, Michalek, Zibanejad). Everybody else you see on the roster is closer to the bubble than Foligno and none of the other prospects have proven enough to be held up a "virtual guarantees".



Long before Foligno would ever be bumped out:
1- Konokpa wouldn't be re-signed.
2- Winchester wouldn't be re-signed.
3- Daugavins would be moved.
4- DaCosta would be moved.
5- Condra would be moved.
6- Alfie would retire.
7- Butler would be moved.
8- Neil would be moved or retire.
9- Greening would be moved.
10- Z.Smith would be moved.






How about this crazy suggestion?

If in 2 years, we have 3 full lines of players better than he is; at that point and only at that point, would Foligno ever become expendable.
I have no hatred for nick however you are coming up with stuff no one will know .If there is one thing I have learned is no one can predict what will happen in 2 years time or even one years time.Players all develop at different times and fall off at different times.I can remember you slamming Zack Smith last year several times.You figured he would not turn out as a player the way Murray figured.Well you were wrong there and( I think dont know for sure )think you may be wrong on this one .I hope things go well for all the young boys but in a real world they dont.But I dont think Nick is better than all the ones you listed today,so he wont be in 1 or 2 years time.

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12-06-2011, 04:46 PM
  #71
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Foligno has been awesome since getting a bump in ice-time and responsibility. I think he actually makes a pretty good centre, though he needs to work on his faceoffs. Right now I don't think that 50 points is out of the question.

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12-06-2011, 04:49 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeno View Post
I have no hatred for nick however you are coming up with stuff no one will know .If there is one thing I have learned is no one can predict what will happen in 2 years time or even one years time.Players all develop at different times and fall off at different times.I can remember you slamming Zack Smith last year several times.You figured he would not turn out as a player the way Murray figured.Well you were wrong there and( I think dont know for sure )think you may be wrong on this one .I hope things go well for all the young boys but in a real world they dont.But I dont think Nick is better than all the ones you listed today,so he wont be in 1 or 2 years time.
I didn't slam Smith and I'm not really pumping Foligno up now as much as you think I am.

People on this board don't seem to have the patience or je ne sais quoi to see a strategy executed.

Last year, Smith was clearly behind Winchester in terms of game play. He had the potential to surpass him, but potential doesn't mean jack until it is realized in internal competitions. By the same token, people are popping up all over this board claiming that Foligno, Regin, Butler, Phillips, etc have been made expendable by some obscure 18 or 19 year old draftee who's never played a pro game, may never play a pro game and who are equal or lesser prospects than the players they were who they are supposed to be replacing.

Right now, Nick Foligno is a 2nd liner on this team and he's done pretty well in the short term. Maybe there will come a time when 6 forwards are ahead of him on the depth chart and maybe there won't. But right now, that time seems years away from happening, if ever.

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12-06-2011, 04:49 PM
  #73
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Foligno has been awesome since getting a bump in ice-time and responsibility. I think he actually makes a pretty good centre, though he needs to work on his faceoffs. Right now I don't think that 50 points is out of the question.
yep he is looking good. I remember people calling me out after saying he was a solid center. eat crow

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12-06-2011, 05:14 PM
  #74
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I feel really bad about my harsh attitude towards Foligno over the years. He has strong roots in Sudbury, obviously through his family, and starred for the Wolves in his last few years here.

But I never had much faith in Foligno ever being more then an average 3rd liner. He really seemed like an offensive blackhole at times under Clouston. I've heard Nick talk about it, and Im sure he'd agree, but Maclean is the best thing possible for his career. He's really learning what he needs to do to become successful in this league.

I say try him on Spezza's wing when Regin gets back, shift 9MM back up there with him, and let one of Greening/Butler/Filatov battle it out for the second line spot. Our third line is rolling right now, time to get one of the top two lines rolling as well.

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12-06-2011, 05:16 PM
  #75
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yep he is looking good. I remember people calling me out after saying he was a solid center. eat crow
Tastes good.

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