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Gm #22 Kings @ Stars, 11/23/11 - POST GAME Lose in OT!, THOUGHTS & TIDBITS

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Old
11-25-2011, 01:47 PM
  #251
The Butcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
A team that can score 3 goals per game. Finish 4th in the conference.

Will a new coach result in the team meeting their potential? No one knows, but I do know that Murray can't get this team there. I'll take a potential coach over the current one, even if it ends up worst.

You can pick any excuse you want to make Murray look better than he is. The Kings are almost statistically equal to last season's team. Anyone expect that before game 1? Did everyone expect 7th in the west and a firs round loss? That's right where Terry has the Kings right now. Looking to be the worst offense in the playoffs again.

The "anything" can happen in the playoffs is a myth. If you want to win the cup, you need an offense and a top 4 finish. Or just hope for something that hasn't happened since the lockout.
20 goals in 6 playoff games for the Kings last year. Around 3.33 goals per game.

Just sayin.

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11-25-2011, 01:52 PM
  #252
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If coaching is the factor... how does one explain the top 10 quality PP?

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11-25-2011, 01:52 PM
  #253
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What happened to the attendance for the game? I understand the Phoenix situation, but Dallas, too?

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11-25-2011, 01:53 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Seriously?

(from my post about 10 before yours)

The Kings are 15th in the NHL in average points earned per game at 1.182.
They are 7th in the Western Conference using those numbers. That number extrapolates to 96.9 points for the regular season.

This compares to their average points per game earned of 1.195 for last season - good for 7th in the West and 12th overall.

Let's try this again - unless all teams have played the exact same number of games, ranking the teams by point totals has no value. Would Columbus be in first place right now if they somehow they had been able to play all of their games for the season already and had 60 points?
So glad we have a grown up around here to explain things correctly.

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11-25-2011, 01:58 PM
  #255
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
20 goals in 6 playoff games for the Kings last year. Around 3.33 goals per game.

Just sayin.
And how was that stellar Kings defense in that series? How did they do in the 2nd round? SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! I've already said that there will be times that the "luck and bounce" style will look like world beaters. The Kings need to be consistent over an 82 games season, not just a 6 game series that they lost.

82 games are where you need to be a top 10 offense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
If coaching is the factor... how does one explain the top 10 quality PP?
Really? You think a PP with Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Johnson and Brown on it shouldn't be able to produce a top 10 PP? Special teams have almost no correlation for the Stanley Cup winner. 5-on-5 offense and total offense has a direct correlation on the eventual Stanley Cup champion.

But I guess we should just hold out hope that the Kings will be the first team to win it since the lockout with an offense out of the top 10. Seems like a great plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Brown View Post
What happened to the attendance for the game? I understand the Phoenix situation, but Dallas, too?
They just got their new owner approved this past week. They will start advertising and running promotions again. I expect the attendance to start climbing again.

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11-25-2011, 02:15 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
And how was that stellar Kings defense in that series? How did they do in the 2nd round? SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! I've already said that there will be times that the "luck and bounce" style will look like world beaters. The Kings need to be consistent over an 82 games season, not just a 6 game series that they lost.

82 games are where you need to be a top 10 offense.




Really? You think a PP with Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Johnson and Brown on it shouldn't be able to produce a top 10 PP? Special teams have almost no correlation for the Stanley Cup winner. 5-on-5 offense and total offense has a direct correlation on the eventual Stanley Cup champion.

But I guess we should just hold out hope that the Kings will be the first team to win it since the lockout with an offense out of the top 10. Seems like a great plan.




They just got their new owner approved this past week. They will start advertising and running promotions again. I expect the attendance to start climbing again.
I'm just commenting on the offense, you seem to think that is the most glaring problem and it turns out we were just fine in that department when the playoffs came.

The only point I'm trying to make is that you can throw away most of your predictions come playoff time. There have been plenty of teams that had up and down seasons and got to a cup final.

I just think it's ridiculous to expect this team to just become DOMINANT after aquiring richards and gagne. This team is about where I expected them to be. I also wasn't standing on top of a mountain telling everyone how AWESOME this team is when they were destroying opponents in October last year.

One thing I've learned from following NHL hockey for so many years is that the team is never as good as it looks when things are going well and never quite as bad as it looks when they are slumping.

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11-25-2011, 02:19 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
If coaching is the factor... how does one explain the top 10 quality PP?
The Kings' power play is running at a 15.9% clip over the past 15 games...not exactly top 10 material.

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11-25-2011, 02:22 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
I'm just commenting on the offense, you seem to think that is the most glaring problem and it turns out we were just fine in that department when the playoffs came.

The only point I'm trying to make is that you can throw away most of your predictions come playoff time. There have been plenty of teams that had up and down seasons and got to a cup final.

I just think it's ridiculous to expect this team to just become DOMINANT after aquiring richards and gagne. This team is about where I expected them to be. I also wasn't standing on top of a mountain telling everyone how AWESOME this team is when they were destroying opponents in October last year.

One thing I've learned from following NHL hockey for so many years is that the team is never as good as it looks when things are going well and never quite as bad as it looks when they are slumping.
They numbers have been posted here so many times, but regular season scoring and defending ability reflect heavily on who makes it the furthest in the NHL playoffs. Hell, the Bruins were the best 5-on-5 scoring team in the NHL last season and look how well it worked out for them.

And 6 games is waaaaaaaaaaaay too small of a sample size to declare the Kings' offense playoff sufficient.

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11-25-2011, 02:24 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
They numbers have been posted here so many times, but regular season scoring and defending ability reflect heavily on who makes it the furthest in the NHL playoffs. Hell, the Bruins were the best 5-on-5 scoring team in the NHL last season and look how well it worked out for them.

And 6 games is waaaaaaaaaaaay too small of a sample size to declare the Kings' offense playoff sufficient.
Well take a look at the Boston boards a month ago. Even more gloomy than it is around here.

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11-25-2011, 02:30 PM
  #260
Chazz Reinhold
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
Well take a look at the Boston boards a month ago. Even more gloomy than it is around here.
A) That's not even what this argument is about.
B) That doesn't respond to my point that the Bruins were the best 5-on-5 scoring team in the NHL last season and they won the Cup. Vancouver was 7th. 5-on-5 goal scoring ability over the course of the regular reflects HEAVILY on a team's ability to compete for the Cup. It's a fact. The Kings are not good in this department. They never have been under Terry Murray. With the talent on this roster they SHOULD be better in that category, but they're not.

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11-25-2011, 02:37 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
The only point I'm trying to make is that you can throw away most of your predictions come playoff time. There have been plenty of teams that had up and down seasons and got to a cup final.
Everyone has "up and down" seasons, but the average over 82 games is the better indication. Nobody is going to score exactly 3 goals per game for 82 games, but you better average close to 3 goals per game if you want to win the Stanley Cup.

Show me a team since the lockout that has won the cup without a top 10 offense. You can continue to ignore the facts, but hoping the Kings are the first team to do it is not a strategy that I want the Kings management to use.

Usually when a team gets more talented and more mature, the results improve. With Murray, they are going the opposite way. Maybe the more talented players are getting tired of the system and aren't as motivated to play "Murray" hockey?

Wasn't there a rumor that Smyth was tired of playing for Murray and that was one of the reasons he asked for a trade? Just used his family as a trump card. Looking at his 11 goals and 22 points in 21 games (9 ES goals), the rumors may have been true. He didn't want to waste his last contract year playing for Murray. He may now get a decent 2-year contact extension based on his play in Edmonton.

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11-25-2011, 02:51 PM
  #262
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So no Lewis or Richie tommorow against the fast hawks.

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11-25-2011, 02:56 PM
  #263
Chazz Reinhold
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Originally Posted by Cruel11 View Post
So no Lewis or Richie tommorow against the fast hawks.
Lewis and Richardson don't put up points: benched.
Moreau doesn't put up points and takes costly penalties: lineup ticket punched for the whole season.

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11-25-2011, 03:03 PM
  #264
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Lewis and Richardson don't put up points: benched.
Moreau doesn't put up points and takes costly penalties: lineup ticket punched for the whole season.
Murray likes Moreau's "dot-to-board" play. Not so much Richardson and Lewis.

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11-25-2011, 03:15 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Everyone has "up and down" seasons, but the average over 82 games is the better indication. Nobody is going to score exactly 3 goals per game for 82 games, but you better average close to 3 goals per game if you want to win the Stanley Cup.

Show me a team since the lockout that has won the cup without a top 10 offense. You can continue to ignore the facts, but hoping the Kings are the first team to do it is not a strategy that I want the Kings management to use.

Usually when a team gets more talented and more mature, the results improve. With Murray, they are going the opposite way. Maybe the more talented players are getting tired of the system and aren't as motivated to play "Murray" hockey?

Wasn't there a rumor that Smyth was tired of playing for Murray and that was one of the reasons he asked for a trade? Just used his family as a trump card. Looking at his 11 goals and 22 points in 21 games (9 ES goals), the rumors may have been true. He didn't want to waste his last contract year playing for Murray. He may now get a decent 2-year contact extension based on his play in Edmonton.
I think the Ducks (with a D that year) were 28th in scoring

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11-25-2011, 03:23 PM
  #266
Chazz Reinhold
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
I think the Ducks (with a D that year) were 28th in scoring
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...wName=goalsFor

t-8th in overall offense. 12th in 5-on-5 offense.

Where did you even get 28th?

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11-25-2011, 03:27 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...wName=goalsFor

t-8th in overall offense. 12th in 5-on-5 offense.

Where did you even get 28th?
Looked at the wrong year stats 2007-08 good thing I am not at work\, that type of error could get one fired

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11-25-2011, 03:29 PM
  #268
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Sorry - double post


Last edited by PSP: 11-25-2011 at 03:36 PM.
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11-25-2011, 03:32 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...wName=goalsFor

t-8th in overall offense. 12th in 5-on-5 offense.

Where did you even get 28th?
They were tied for 27th the next season and lost in the first round

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11-25-2011, 03:33 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...wName=goalsFor

t-8th in overall offense. 12th in 5-on-5 offense.

Where did you even get 28th?
Looked at the wrong year 2007-2008
opps

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11-25-2011, 03:35 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
Looked at the wrong year 2007-2008
opps
That kind of validates Sydor25's point

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11-25-2011, 04:08 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Really? You think a PP with Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Johnson and Brown on it shouldn't be able to produce a top 10 PP? Special teams have almost no correlation for the Stanley Cup winner. 5-on-5 offense and total offense has a direct correlation on the eventual Stanley Cup champion.

But I guess we should just hold out hope that the Kings will be the first team to win it since the lockout with an offense out of the top 10. Seems like a great plan.
Last 3 Seasons:

...........ESG/G...PPG/G...EN+SH+PS/G...Total G/G
09-10...1.89.......77.........037..................2.8
10-11...1.85.......56.........134..................2.5
11-12...1.45.......77.........18....................2.4

ESG= Even Strength Goals
PPG= Power Play Goals
EN = Empty Net
SH= Short Handed
PS= Penalty Shot


I don't think it's too unrealistic that the Kings even strength scoring will at least get back to around 1.8x goals per game. Which is about the average in the NHL. Combine that with a good PP, and the Kings should be CLOSE to the top 10 in NHL scoring.

...And I'm not saying that's good enough, but I think there's some reason to be at least a little optimistic. TM's "system" hasn't been nearly as anemic as it's been made out to be over the last couple seasons; it's just been average, and the PP has been the X factor. The Kings were 9th overall in goal scoring in 09-10. The Kings scored at the same pace at ES in 10-11, but the overall goals for stats were skewed by the PP.

I'm more concerned about the fact that we don't have a legit #1 defenseman right now. It's very rare that a team wins the cup with out that.

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11-25-2011, 04:21 PM
  #273
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The Kings only had a top 3 last year, the middle six were used as a 3a and 3b unit and they had more opportunities to play as the "2nd" line. The Kings have a legitimate top 6 now with 2 top line centers. The third unit is not going to get the chances that they had last year.
They might not get as many chances, but they still have to capitalize on the chances they get at the same rate as last year and they clearly aren't.

Anyways, I dispute your claim (if I read your post correctly) that the number of chances our lower lines get is fewer than last year.

Here is a breakdown of ice time for our top six forwards last year and this year as of the Dallas game:

2010-2011 2011-2012
Player Time on Ice PP Time Player Time on Ice PP Time
Kopitar 21:35 3:37 Kopitar 21:59 4:13
Brown 19:22 2:57 Brown 19:40 4:06
Williams 17:15 2:38 Williams 16:55 2:57
Penner 18:07 3:05 Penner 14:27 2:06
Stoll 17:09 2:31 Richards 20:03 3:55
Smyth 18:02 2:57 Gagne 17:57 3:12

Averages (per player)
2010-2011 2011-2012 Difference
Time on Ice 18:35 18:30 -0:05
PP Time 2:58 3:25 + 0:27

*I included Penner's stats for Edmonton and LA in 2010-2011 as I could find them seperated. I included Penner in the top six for this year as he, along with the others listed, have played the most games in the top two lines this year for the Kings.

Here's the Kings bottom six now compared:

2010-2011 2011-2012
Player Time on Ice PP Time Player Time on Ice PP Time
Handzus 17:20 2:42 Hunter 10:53 1:41
Simmonds 13:27 0:50 Moreau 10:50 0:24
Lewis 11:29 0:03 Lewis 10:29 0:09
Richardson 11:45 0:03 Richardson 12:41 0:02
Ponikarovsky 12:35 0:55 Stoll 16:11 2:31
Clifford 9:30 0:01 Clifford 8:28 0:02

Averages (per player)
2010-2011 2011-2012 Difference
Time on Ice 12:41 11:35 -1:06
PP Time 0:46 0:48 +0:02

Essentially, the lower lines see about one-and-a-half less shifts per game, assuming a 40 second shift. That half a shift is off-set by the extra 27 seconds of powerplay time the top six gets per game this year, compared to last. So, in essence, the lower lines see on average one less shift per game at even strength or on the powerplay, while the upper lines seea slight increase in PP time.

If the lower lines witnessed a 10% decrease in production, which is what that one minute of ice time would be, give or take, that would be understandable. They haven't, and yet their production has almost completely disappeared. As I stated in an earlier post in another thread, the 3rd/4th lines last year were scoring at a clip of 0.585 goals per game. This year, they are scoring at 0.182 goals per game, or less than 33% of what they were last year.

A few less chances or not, the decrease in production can not simply be pushed off on having less opportunities.

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11-25-2011, 04:33 PM
  #274
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So no Lewis or Richie tommorow against the fast hawks.
Kevin Westgarth has the same amount of points as those two guys COMBINED. In less games too boot.

Think about that for a moment. Why do they deserve any Ice time what so ever?

Lewis and Richardson have been garbage. The last few games they have been out. The Bottom lines have at least had an Identity

I am a Big Lewis fan as well, Love his D. But good god man you need to bring something else as well.

They will both be back in the lineup at some point, but sit em now let them stew a little.

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11-25-2011, 04:37 PM
  #275
Jason Lewis
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Kevin Westgarth has the same amount of points as those two guys COMBINED. In less games too boot.

Think about that for a moment. Why do they deserve any Ice time what so ever?

Lewis and Richardson have been garbage. The last few games they have been out. The Bottom lines have at least had an Identity

I am a Big Lewis fan as well, Love his D. But good god man you need to bring something else as well.
Yea...i've actually thought that the 4th line of Moreau-Fraser-Westgarth has been really really good.


Aside from the retard Moreau penalty...they have done their job. Keep it simple, forecheck, take the body, put whatever the hell you can on net and hope for a dirty goal.

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