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04-11-2012, 01:06 AM
  #526
txpd
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
If we can get 50 points from this soft, defensively oblivious Russian for $4 million, why pay twice that to Semin for the same "impact"?
thats fine so long as you can guarantee that semin is a 50pt nhl player from here out and his days as a 35-40 goal nhl player with 50 goal upside is not merely on hiatus.

i think that is a terrible mistake.

from where i sit the caps need more offense and not less of it. they need ovechkin, backstrom, semin and kuznetsov. they need johansson. they need green, wideman, carlson AND orlov. not less of them.

you will be horrified when he lands in detroit and starts pounding 40 goals again.

edit: i find it interesting that the more structured he becomes under hunter and the more clutch he becomes the more the anti semin among us want him gone. even hunter singled him out of recent for his play down the stretch. hunter tries to get backstrom going and puts him with semin. semin makes a brilliant play to get him his first goal.

it looks to me like some here are over semin and have been for a while and they dont care to see any change because its a closed case in their mind....next?


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04-11-2012, 03:16 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
thats fine so long as you can guarantee that semin is a 50pt nhl player from here out and his days as a 35-40 goal nhl player with 50 goal upside is not merely on hiatus.

i think that is a terrible mistake.

from where i sit the caps need more offense and not less of it. they need ovechkin, backstrom, semin and kuznetsov. they need johansson. they need green, wideman, carlson AND orlov. not less of them.

you will be horrified when he lands in detroit and starts pounding 40 goals again.

edit: i find it interesting that the more structured he becomes under hunter and the more clutch he becomes the more the anti semin among us want him gone. even hunter singled him out of recent for his play down the stretch. hunter tries to get backstrom going and puts him with semin. semin makes a brilliant play to get him his first goal.

it looks to me like some here are over semin and have been for a while and they dont care to see any change because its a closed case in their mind....next?
I wouldn't mind Semin back, but realistically he is going to get mega dollars. Those dollars can be allocated to other areas. I do realize some team is going to offer him a contract equivalent, if not more than he is already making.

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04-11-2012, 08:30 AM
  #528
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wow are you all really talking money about him.

we are paying ward that much... OK? move along

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04-11-2012, 09:22 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
wow are you all really talking money about him.

we are paying ward that much... OK? move along
But we have yet to actually see the reason they brough Ward here in the first place! Playoffs!!

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04-11-2012, 09:23 AM
  #530
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Three years for $3.9M with base, Schedule A and Schedule B bonuses, I'd suspect. He's got all the leverage. He has the leverage of a #1 overall pick.
Everybody who is quoting 3.9M cap hit for a max rookie deal better hold their horses...

The number is closer to 1.8M if you have a rookie who contributes alot to the team (925K + 850K max Sch A bonuses). To get up to 3.8M he would have to qualify for the following Schedule B bonuses (which are set by the league):

Quote:
Originally Posted by From CapGeek Website
Schedule B bonuses cannot exceed $2 million in aggregate. Following is a run down.

Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, Richard
Winner: $250,000
Second: $200,000
Third: $150,000
Fourth: $100,000
Fifth: $50,000

Lady Byng
Winner: $150,000
Second: $100,000
Third: $50,000

Jennings
Winner: $50,000 * pro-rated share if co-winner

Calder
Winner: $212,500
Second: $150,000
Third: $100,000

All-Star Team
1st Team: $100,000
2nd Team: $50,000

Conn Smythe
Winner: $250,000
If his real number ends up being 3.8M (ignoring potential 10% signing bonus) then you more than got your moneys worth....just my 2 cents...

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04-11-2012, 09:29 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Setting up the play View Post

If his real number ends up being 3.8M (ignoring potential 10% signing bonus) then you more than got your moneys worth....just my 2 cents...
While that's certainly true, that doesn't change the fact that the cap is the issue of concern, and since it's unclear how bonuses will be dealt with (will there be a cushion the way there was before? etc.) it's going to make a big difference in terms of what you can try to do during the offseason.

I mean, I think you give him whatever you have to to get it done, so max offer no problem. But that's still a big spot on your cap that you have to accommodate.

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04-11-2012, 09:33 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Setting up the play View Post
Everybody who is quoting 3.9M cap hit for a max rookie deal better hold their horses...

The number is closer to 1.8M if you have a rookie who contributes alot to the team (925K + 850K max Sch A bonuses). To get up to 3.8M he would have to qualify for the following Schedule B bonuses (which are set by the league):

If his real number ends up being 3.8M (ignoring potential 10% signing bonus) then you more than got your moneys worth....just my 2 cents...
It isn't the bonuses that he eventually earns it is the cap hit he carries as long as he can potentially earn them. He will carry that $3.9 mil cap hit for pretty much the entire season though in the end he will very likely not come close to earning all of them.

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04-11-2012, 09:49 AM
  #533
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n/m Previously addressed.

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04-11-2012, 09:54 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I think he'll be ahead physically of where both Skinner and RNH were as rookies, and he's just as talented offensively.
Both players were still harder on the puck and IMO that's a more central ingredient in being a strong possession player. Maybe that changes with strong off-season training but that battle quotient in puck battles isn't just a physical thing but a willingness thing. He will take the puck into traffic and go the net but that tenacity isn't apparent often enough what I've seen. He's somewhat similar to Johansson in that regard. Kuznetsov is a much more dynamic possession player so he's capable of stepping in and putting up better numbers than Johansson's sophomore season IMO but he would be helped greatly by a system and approach that moves towards a quicker, crisper transition game. He's not a dump-and-chase player.

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04-11-2012, 11:20 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
It isn't the bonuses that he eventually earns it is the cap hit he carries as long as he can potentially earn them. He will carry that $3.9 mil cap hit for pretty much the entire season though in the end he will very likely not come close to earning all of them.
But wouldn't we be allowed an overage on the cap of 2.875 (all but his base salary of 925K). With any descrepancy between actual earned dollars and the cap limit being rolled into next year? Assuming this is correct, they could easily use some of the bonus cushion to sign other players under the assumption that he is not going to qualify for Section B bonuses. If he happened to qualify for those, you take the cap hit the next year and thank your lucky stars that you got a top tier talent at #26 in the draft....

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04-11-2012, 11:31 AM
  #536
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On Kuznetsov, because he has an entirely credible and exceedingly lucrative KHL option, it's isn't about whether or not he can earn or be worth the $3.9M, or whether that's an optimal use of cap dollars, but a simple choice for the Caps between overpaying him on his ELC or losing him, probably for good.

Would it be nice if he had to earn his dollars first? Yup. Is that an option? Nope.

Give him a contract with the bonus potential to take in just short of $12M in three years or you aren't going to see EK in a Caps uniform. That's the reality given his KHL leverage. He has a massive payday waiting for him in Europe, if things don't go exactly as he wishes over here. The Caps need to go groveling to him, and be thankful the ELC system gives them some protection.

Why? Because if EK signs for the very most that McPhee is permitted to offer him, he's still taking a bath in his personal cost-benefit analysis. That's of course only if you are looking purely at dollars.

Whether you're getting $4M worth of production out of him in year one, or three, is not the point. Sign him to a (capped) blank check or get nothing at all.

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04-11-2012, 11:38 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Setting up the play View Post
But wouldn't we be allowed an overage on the cap of 2.875 (all but his base salary of 925K). With any descrepancy between actual earned dollars and the cap limit being rolled into next year? Assuming this is correct, they could easily use some of the bonus cushion to sign other players under the assumption that he is not going to qualify for Section B bonuses. If he happened to qualify for those, you take the cap hit the next year and thank your lucky stars that you got a top tier talent at #26 in the draft....
I don't have a crystal ball to be able to tell you what the next CBA is going to look like so I don't know. With the owners/league looking to rein things in again financially I am not going to assume the concept of the bonus cushion is going to exist in the next CBA and even if it does that it will work the same way.

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04-11-2012, 01:10 PM
  #538
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there's the other part that $3.9m might seem overpaying for a rookie. should this player develope anywhere near as projected, he will certainly be overproducing $3.9m by year 3 and very likely by year 2. so....three years on and elc probably a bargain rather than an overpay

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04-11-2012, 01:16 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Setting up the play View Post
But wouldn't we be allowed an overage on the cap of 2.875 (all but his base salary of 925K). With any descrepancy between actual earned dollars and the cap limit being rolled into next year? Assuming this is correct, they could easily use some of the bonus cushion to sign other players under the assumption that he is not going to qualify for Section B bonuses. If he happened to qualify for those, you take the cap hit the next year and thank your lucky stars that you got a top tier talent at #26 in the draft....
No bonus cushion this season due to the expiring CBA. Next year? Who knows.

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04-11-2012, 01:23 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by um View Post
i expect kuz to get 16-18 minute a night and 50-60 points
nah. rookies don't usually get that type of icetime, and the caps are already quite stocked at wing. i guess we don't know who the coach might be next season, but if it's anyone like bruce/dale, he'll likely see under 14 minutes/game.

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04-11-2012, 01:29 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
It isn't the bonuses that he eventually earns it is the cap hit he carries as long as he can potentially earn them. He will carry that $3.9 mil cap hit for pretty much the entire season though in the end he will very likely not come close to earning all of them.
that's not how bonuses count against the cap.

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04-11-2012, 01:30 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
that's not how bonuses count against the cap.
Yes it is.

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04-11-2012, 01:37 PM
  #543
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There is a point when certain bonuses, like GP totals, become technically impossible to achieve. So with 14 games played and 15 games left in the regular season, you are no longer liable for a Schedule A line item that says, 'a minimum of 30 games played.' You need to achieve a certain number of Schedule A items (say, three or four) to get the bonus. If that makes meeting all 3/4 required criteria impossible, then that is a trigger.

In some cases, though, like a goal or assist total, a fluky final game could see a player rack up five goals or eight points, etc. You can't make a "no reasonable chance" determination for that kind of requirement. You get until the end of the year to achieve it. So you never get cap relief on a stat line like that one.

So it's true that the $3.9M eventually decreases as the season progresses, but it's usually fairly late in the year. That cap space is rarely freed up before the trade deadline, but it can help if you are otherwise up against the cap on March 23rd and need to make a minors transaction.

In the end, the difference is not a significant amount of money, it's pro-rated, and it comes when the regular season is almost over. It is technically true that the cap works that way, though. Millhaus is correct.

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04-11-2012, 01:42 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
Yes it is.
"Entry-Level" Salary Restrictions

Players between the ages of 18 and 21 must sign "entry-level" contracts for their first three NHL seasons. Those aged 22-23 are entry-level players for two years, those aged 24 for a single year.

An entry-level player can earn a maximum of $850,000 per year. The limit rises throughout the agreement, to $925,000 in 2011. Maximum entry-level salary in 2004 was $1.295 million.

Signing bonuses are capped at 10 percent of the player's salary. Under the old deal, signing bonuses for entry-level players were capped at 50 percent of base salary.

Performance bonuses can be earned at two levels. The first level covers individual benchmarks such as goals scored, goaltender wins, and so on. The maximum a player can earn at this level is believed to be around $850,000 per year. The second level is for much rarer achievements, like winning a major NHL award or ranking among the NHL's top players in a statistical catregory. The maximum a player can earn at this level is estimated at $2 million per year. Performance bonuses under the old agreement were subject to few limits.

With some exceptions, performance bonuses are paid by the league and do not count against a team's salary cap. But they do count in calculating the league-wide share of player revenue.



potential bonuses count against the cap when the bonus is actually paid. this was the case with the blackhawks when they won the cup. because of the bonus cushion, they just lost that cap space the following year, but they were not affected during their season. the bonus cushion might be gone in the next cba, but for potential ELC bonuses, they do not all automatically count against the cap.

think of it this way, a team might have 4 rookies, each with a $250k bonus for the calder. they do not lose $1m of cap space, because all 4 obviously can't win the calder at the same time. at most, the calder bonus will cost $250k if one of them wins it.

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04-11-2012, 01:46 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
nah. rookies don't usually get that type of icetime, and the caps are already quite stocked at wing. i guess we don't know who the coach might be next season, but if it's anyone like bruce/dale, he'll likely see under 14 minutes/game.
It depends on his effort level and how responsible he plays but if Semin goes there's a big top six wing spot that will need to be filled. As-is they're quite arguably a top six winger short with Chimera on a scoring-line.

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04-11-2012, 02:29 PM
  #546
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With some exceptions, performance bonuses are paid by the league and do not count against a team's salary cap. But they do count in calculating the league-wide share of player revenue.
I understand why you are reading that the way you are but the performance bonuses that apply to the players cap hit are in the $3 mil per neighborhood and apply until they are no longer attainable during the season.

Are there other league paid bonuses that do not apply to the cap? Yes but that is not what is being discussed here.

Kuznetsov's cap hit is going to be around $3.9 mil and only roughly $900k of that is actual salary.

Sk8, can you clarify this some more please?

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04-11-2012, 03:26 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
I understand why you are reading that the way you are but the performance bonuses that apply to the players cap hit are in the $3 mil per neighborhood and apply until they are no longer attainable during the season.

Are there other league paid bonuses that do not apply to the cap? Yes but that is not what is being discussed here.

Kuznetsov's cap hit is going to be around $3.9 mil and only roughly $900k of that is actual salary.

Sk8, can you clarify this some more please?
unless he actually wins enough awards to get those performance bonuses, it will not actually matter as far as the salary cap is concerned.

another example, the calder bonus is available only during the players first year, yet appears as a bonus incentive for all three years of the ELC (at least on capgeek). that's an automatic $250k off the salary cap for the remainder of the contract as soon as the player dresses in 25 games, or 6+ games in two consecutive seasons.

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04-11-2012, 03:27 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
unless he actually wins enough awards to get those performance bonuses, it will not actually matter as far as the salary cap is concerned.
It will if there is no cushion allowed to defer those bonuses before they're decided on.

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04-11-2012, 03:32 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
unless he actually wins enough awards to get those performance bonuses, it will not actually matter as far as the salary cap is concerned.
And you know this how exactly? If you have a crystal ball and know how the next CBA negotiations are going to play out don't be so selfish and let us all know please...

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04-11-2012, 05:39 PM
  #550
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It will if there is no cushion allowed to defer those bonuses before they're decided on.
This is the real question....but I would be surprised if the new CBA didn't allow for some sort of cushion or leaway to allow teams to spend to the cap when they have players with incentivized deals....

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