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Old
07-03-2012, 10:15 AM
  #901
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Here's hoping that Russian aviation and healthcare don't kill him in the next two years.
why would you even say something like this?

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07-03-2012, 10:15 AM
  #902
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why would you even say something like this?
Because it's a legitimate concern?

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07-03-2012, 10:24 AM
  #903
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why would you even say something like this?
Because it's a legitimate concern?

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07-03-2012, 10:27 AM
  #904
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Because it's a legitimate concern?
he's a 20 year old who has his whole life ahead of him. even if you are thinking of things that could go wrong, why bring up something as morbid as death? the bubonic plague could also happen you know.

besides chances that he sucks at hockey in 2 years are a lot greater than whatever you are calling legitimate concerns over here.

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07-03-2012, 10:33 AM
  #905
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Russia has the plague now, too?? Goddammit. Things are really going downhill there.

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07-03-2012, 10:36 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Russia has the plague now, too?? Goddammit. Things are really going downhill there.
Also bears on unicycles. Things have really gone downhill since the last time you've been here bro.

Kuznetsov is as good as gone. This board will have to find another chew toy.

At least we don't have to worry about him getting killed by a drunk driving teammate or be told he's fine when he has a collapsed lung.

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07-03-2012, 10:48 AM
  #907
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Also bears on unicycles. Things have really gone downhill since the last time you've been here bro.
That definitely sounds like up to me.

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07-03-2012, 10:50 AM
  #908
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Also bears on unicycles. Things have really gone downhill since the last time you've been here bro.

Kuznetsov is as good as gone. This board will have to find another chew toy.

At least we don't have to worry about him getting killed by a drunk driving teammate or be told he's fine when he has a collapsed lung.
What's Zangief up to these days?

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07-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
he's a 20 year old who has his whole life ahead of him. even if you are thinking of things that could go wrong, why bring up something as morbid as death? the bubonic plague could also happen you know.

besides chances that he sucks at hockey in 2 years are a lot greater than whatever you are calling legitimate concerns over here.
I'm sure they said that about Cherepanov.

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07-03-2012, 04:32 PM
  #910
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Cons:
- getting in habit of not playing start-n-stop hockey
- getting used to not paying as much attention to detail
- getting used to being treated like a star

you are pulling this out of nowhere. NHL players are treated more like stars than KHL. playing in the Traktor system is much more attention to detail than anywhere else. kind of what they are known for. start-n-stop hockey is more of a north-american game than international ice. Kuzya may need to add some muscle/conditioning to be NHL-ready, but it's not a huge pro/con either way. He is choosing KHL because every coach he's ever had is telling him that he has room to grow in their system, and they are right of course. once you get to the NHL, you don't get the benefit of player development nearly as much as you did before.
1. Yes, start-n-stop is North-American game because it is more relevant for small-size rinks. You can argue until you're blue that a more fluid skating style COULD succeed in NHL playoffs, but first of all, I would disagree (unless we're talking about a team that has maybe 5 Datsyuks on it), and second of all, Kuz would have to play here for NA coaches all of whom coach the NA way. If the Caps had a Russian five with a coach that lets them play that way, ok, but it ain't gonna happen.. so if Kuz is not used to start-n-stop, it's going to be a detriment when he comes over. And the more comfortable he gets playing a certain way, the harder it will be to adjust later on.

2. You're missing my point about stars. Kuz in NHL as a rookie would have a lot to prove to an NHL coach, and he'd have to battle for ice-time. What exactly does he have to prove in Traktor? They don't really have a choice to play him big minutes or not. So it's not the same motivation to improve. So if he came over, he'd be adapting and improving in those two years. He's over there, he doesn't have to improve, Traktor's coaches have a lot less leverage because he is their franchise.

3. Level of detail -- well, I dunno, perhaps Traktor's coaches are unique and far beyond average KHL level in attention to detail. But in the end, the level of professionalism is still higher in NA (and no surprise there, as professional sports leagues in Russia are a very recent development). And in NHL, you play against the best players in the world every night, and the game is faster and more intense -- you HAVE to pay attention to detail to be successful. In Russia, level of competition is lower, so a player like Kuz can afford to take a shortcut because the price of a mistake is lower and/or he has the skills to make up for it.

4. You're right about player development being good, but there are plenty of Russian analysts former players/coaches who have said that Kuz made a mistake, in terms of precisely HIS DEVELOPMENT, by staying in Russia. So while I respect your opinion n' all, but on balance I'll defer (for example) to a certain Larionov:
http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks...ke-by-staying/

5. Just to be clear, I don't blame Kuz for not coming over. If he stays in Russia and is happy, it's his effin choice, and all the ******** about how every player "with proper character" should be waking up at night dreaming about playing in NHL is just absurd. Of course, hockey is not the only consideration -- there is family, financial security, loyalty/political pressures/etc. But I think it's about 80-90% likely that he'd be a better player long term if he spent those next two years in NHL compared to KHL.


Last edited by artilector: 07-03-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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07-04-2012, 11:29 AM
  #911
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art, respectfully you don't know what you are talking about.

1. start-n-stop is more about conditioning than style of play. virtually every rookie who comes in the league steps up his strength and conditioning in order to make it out of camp and handle big time minutes. i doubt you can come up with even 5 russian players who have come over and couldn't adjust to "start-n-stop" because they are too used to some other style of skating. why do you think it's a concern for Kuzya?

2 and 3. you probably don't know much about most russian clubs that still run the "soviet system" and Traktor/Belousov in particular. Yes, they have a choice to cut down his minutes, which they have done when Kuzya was clearly overplaying after national team camps and the WJC. The public doesn't know and the coach doesn't care what his salary is. Belousov/Bragin/Bilyaletdinov care whether he is making the right decisions in every game moment. if that's not attention to detail, then i don't know what you mean. He has proven he deserves every minute of ice time they give him. but he is clearly not quite at his potential, as he was just a bench player at the WC.

he is given some perks, but at the end of the day it's a lot less than a plug on an NHL team gets. Traktor in particular still runs a sport base, to the dismay of most players. you think that would fly in the NHL? http://en.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=24245

4. Larionov took the contrarian view, and that's fine. He is not a fan of soviet methods, which are harsh. but that doesn't mean they don't work or that they are not right for some people, just that those methods can't be forced on everybody. he thinks that overall players are treated better in the NHL than in the KHL, and with a few exceptions of superstars, he is absolutely correct. that doesn't matter. there's a lot of players (russian and canadian alike) who couldn't push themselves to improve unless there was competition for the next open spot in a league higher than yours. but that's hardly Kuzya's problem. sure, there is entitlement in the KHL, and he's spoken out against it every chance he gets.

5. i think that most russian players dream of playing in the NHL. but it's a crappy deal for a russian player to come to North America. language barrier, friends/family, crappy attitude to a foreign import, worse compensation for a person who probably grew up below NA poverty standards while veteran plugs are making guaranteed millions, NHLPA/league acting as if you owe them something. it's all a part of it. and when some idiot former player/gm on tv calls you lazy, that's just icing on the cake. respectfully, they know nothing what it's like to try to make it while skating at an outdoor rink in omsk/chelyabinsk in the 90s.

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07-04-2012, 11:32 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
art, respectfully you don't know what you are talking about.

1. start-n-stop is more about conditioning than style of play. virtually every rookie who comes in the league steps up his strength and conditioning in order to make it out of camp and handle big time minutes. i doubt you can come up with even 5 russian players who have come over and couldn't adjust to "start-n-stop" because they are too used to some other style of skating. why do you think it's a concern for Kuzya?

2 and 3. you probably don't know much about most russian clubs that still run the "soviet system" and Traktor/Belousov in particular. Yes, they have a choice to cut down his minutes, which they have done when Kuzya was clearly overplaying after national team camps and the WJC. The public doesn't know and the coach doesn't care what his salary is. Belousov/Bragin/Bilyaletdinov care whether he is making the right decisions in every game moment. if that's not attention to detail, then i don't know what you mean. He has proven he deserves every minute of ice time they give him. but he is clearly not quite at his potential, as he was just a bench player at the WC.

he is given some perks, but at the end of the day it's a lot less than a plug on an NHL team gets. Traktor in particular still runs a sport base, to the dismay of most players. you think that would fly in the NHL? http://en.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=24245

4. Larionov took the contrarian view, and that's fine. He is not a fan of soviet methods, which are harsh. but that doesn't mean they don't work or that they are not right for some people, just that those methods can't be forced on everybody. he thinks that overall players are treated better in the NHL than in the KHL, and with a few exceptions of superstars, he is absolutely correct. that doesn't matter. there's a lot of players (russian and canadian alike) who couldn't push themselves to improve unless there was competition for the next open spot in a league higher than yours. but that's hardly Kuzya's problem. sure, there is entitlement in the KHL, and he's spoken out against it every chance he gets.

5. i think that most russian players dream of playing in the NHL. but it's a crappy deal for a russian player to come to North America. language barrier, friends/family, crappy attitude to a foreign import, worse compensation for a person who probably grew up below NA poverty standards while veteran plugs are making guaranteed millions, NHLPA/league acting as if you owe them something. it's all a part of it. and when some idiot former player/gm on tv calls you lazy, that's just icing on the cake. respectfully, they know nothing what it's like to try to make it while skating at an outdoor rink in omsk/chelyabinsk in the 90s.
Yeah, it's a "crappy" deal in North America for Russians. Millions of dollars, world class hotels and travel, playing in the best league in the world. Terrible.

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07-04-2012, 11:54 AM
  #913
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Russia has the plague now, too?? Goddammit. Things are really going downhill there.
or, you know, new mexico. http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/1...in-new-mexico/

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I'm sure they said that about Cherepanov.
that doesn't mean it's more likely to happen than being struck by lightning, or happening on this side of the pond. http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...iac-emergency/

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07-04-2012, 11:57 AM
  #914
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Yeah, it's a "crappy" deal in North America for Russians. Millions of dollars, world class hotels and travel, playing in the best league in the world. Terrible.
yes, the glitz and glamour is all there is to immigration. *eyeroll*

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07-04-2012, 12:02 PM
  #915
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New Mexico huh. Nice rebuttal.

North American has had our fair share of players dying here too, Boogaard Rypien.

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07-04-2012, 12:38 PM
  #916
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The terrible situation is the the situation the teams are in worrying about the Russians. I love Ovy but he is an exception to the rule. It appears as though GMGM has wised up and started drafting more North Americans with the high picks. I don't blame the Russians for wanting to go home and play but at this point, the skill level they have is not worth the flight risk and other problems.

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07-04-2012, 01:25 PM
  #917
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art, respectfully you don't know what you are talking about.

1. start-n-stop is more about conditioning than style of play. virtually every rookie who comes in the league steps up his strength and conditioning in order to make it out of camp and handle big time minutes. i doubt you can come up with even 5 russian players who have come over and couldn't adjust to "start-n-stop" because they are too used to some other style of skating. why do you think it's a concern for Kuzya?

2 and 3. you probably don't know much about most russian clubs that still run the "soviet system" and Traktor/Belousov in particular. Yes, they have a choice to cut down his minutes, which they have done when Kuzya was clearly overplaying after national team camps and the WJC. The public doesn't know and the coach doesn't care what his salary is. Belousov/Bragin/Bilyaletdinov care whether he is making the right decisions in every game moment. if that's not attention to detail, then i don't know what you mean. He has proven he deserves every minute of ice time they give him. but he is clearly not quite at his potential, as he was just a bench player at the WC.

he is given some perks, but at the end of the day it's a lot less than a plug on an NHL team gets. Traktor in particular still runs a sport base, to the dismay of most players. you think that would fly in the NHL? http://en.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=24245

4. Larionov took the contrarian view, and that's fine. He is not a fan of soviet methods, which are harsh. but that doesn't mean they don't work or that they are not right for some people, just that those methods can't be forced on everybody. he thinks that overall players are treated better in the NHL than in the KHL, and with a few exceptions of superstars, he is absolutely correct. that doesn't matter. there's a lot of players (russian and canadian alike) who couldn't push themselves to improve unless there was competition for the next open spot in a league higher than yours. but that's hardly Kuzya's problem. sure, there is entitlement in the KHL, and he's spoken out against it every chance he gets.

5. i think that most russian players dream of playing in the NHL. but it's a crappy deal for a russian player to come to North America. language barrier, friends/family, crappy attitude to a foreign import, worse compensation for a person who probably grew up below NA poverty standards while veteran plugs are making guaranteed millions, NHLPA/league acting as if you owe them something. it's all a part of it. and when some idiot former player/gm on tv calls you lazy, that's just icing on the cake. respectfully, they know nothing what it's like to try to make it while skating at an outdoor rink in omsk/chelyabinsk in the 90s.
1. Who couldn't adjust? First of all, many of those guys have left, so there is selection bias if you consider only those that remain. But in any case -- Kovalchuk, Ovechkin are just two examples of players that despite their offensive output would've been better players if they spent less time in "cruise control". It's not about conditioning -- these guys are horses, it's about recognizing that no matter how skilled you are, your line does better when you battle hard for pucks and are prepared to spend energy on start-n-stop, rather than trying to save it all for offensive moves.

2-3. I don't want to debate Russia vs. Soviet, blah-blah-blah. You watch KHL games, the attention to detail is not there, the speeds are different, you can't attain same levels of concentration playing against inferior competition. And you can't attain same level of motivation to improve when you're pretty much guaranteed a top-6 or 1st line spot. Doesn't matter if its KHL or any other league not named NHL, at this point.

4. So, basically you just said "you don't know what you're talking about" to Larionov, as well, lol. (Ну конечно, буржуй, враг народа, и т.д. и т.п.). I'm sure he spends nights awake sticking needles in the KHL voodoo doll. Me -- I'll take his opinion over yours.

5. Yes, it can be a crappy deal, and the only true reward is playing against the best. Comes to down to what you want.. But that story about outdoor rinks.. As if growing up in tough conditions automatically makes people not lazy. That's a completely specious argument. For example, there are plenty of great Brazilian soccer players who grew up in crap conditions, and this does not prevent them from being lazy as hell.

А на хамство отвечать больше не буду, с уважением, и всё такое..

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07-04-2012, 02:36 PM
  #918
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art, i'll ask you again for specific examples of skaters who couldn't adjust to start-n-stop skating or greater speeds. you'll find there aren't many, because those who choose to come over are not fringe players. they were/are established or about to be established in Russia in their own right. i think the chances are good that Kuzya would not be hindered by russian coaches over the next couple of years. in fact, you have nothing to support your claim other than the eyeball test of 'watch KHL games'. is it a different game over there? yes, but it translates pretty damn well. please don't attack ovechkin/kovalchuk needlessly. it's unnecessary and does not support your argument. besides, there are so many better examples of russian players to choose from (dats/malkin/semin).

i did not say anything of the sort about Larionov. in fact, i believe i said "he is absolutely correct" for an average player. it doesn't apply to Kuzya, because clearly he is happy enough in his current situation.

it's nice that you can read Kuzya's motivation about his guaranteed place among the capitals top-6. or that he wouldn't want (and be demanded of) to use the entirety of his talent in order to crush inferior competition and bring the Gagarin cup to Chelyabinsk. i can't argue with that sort of superpower, and i hope you use it to read my mind (or at the very least my previous post) to see that i haven't insulted you in any way.

by the way, if the guarantee of a first-line is too much for any player, then by god, sidney crosby must be one hell of a lazy mother[censored].

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07-04-2012, 02:42 PM
  #919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
The terrible situation is the the situation the teams are in worrying about the Russians. I love Ovy but he is an exception to the rule. It appears as though GMGM has wised up and started drafting more North Americans with the high picks. I don't blame the Russians for wanting to go home and play but at this point, the skill level they have is not worth the flight risk and other problems.
By North Americans you mean Swedes.

Anyway, I'd say GM has been quite successful with his Russian draft picks. Let's look at Caps 1st round picks for the past 10 drafts ('02-'12)

4 Russians: no busts, jury still out on Kuz.

4 Swedes: 1 complete bust, too early to tell on Forsberg.

10 NA: 4 busts + Gordon and Sarge, to early to tell for Wilson.

I'd say GM has had the most success with his Russian draft picks.

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07-04-2012, 02:50 PM
  #920
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crappy deal? nhl contract is guaranteed. khl contract not guaranteed. we can stop there.

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07-04-2012, 03:11 PM
  #921
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crappy deal? nhl contract is guaranteed. khl contract not guaranteed. we can stop there.
KHL contract is guaranteed. You can't release a star player without his approval. If you don't want to lose a contract, you just don't agree with that. If they still do it, you go to the court. And win. Nobody does that for some reason.

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07-04-2012, 03:48 PM
  #922
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Kuznetsov has a once in a lifetime opportunity to win an Olympic gold medal in his home country and decided not to do anything that would jeopardize that opportunity. He'll likely have at least 15 kicks at the can when it comes to opportunities to play for the cup. In his situation I would likely have made the same decision.

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07-04-2012, 04:31 PM
  #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robin View Post
By North Americans you mean Swedes.

Anyway, I'd say GM has been quite successful with his Russian draft picks. Let's look at Caps 1st round picks for the past 10 drafts ('02-'12)

4 Russians: no busts, jury still out on Kuz.

4 Swedes: 1 complete bust, too early to tell on Forsberg.

10 NA: 4 busts + Gordon and Sarge, to early to tell for Wilson.

I'd say GM has had the most success with his Russian draft picks.
By high picks I meant rounds 1, 2 and 3.

Varly was a solid pick but the flight risk was there which lead to his trade. Who knows if we'll ever see Kuz. The Forsberg pick was made strictly because he was by far the best player left.

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07-04-2012, 04:48 PM
  #924
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By high picks I meant rounds 1, 2 and 3.

Varly was a solid pick but the flight risk was there which lead to his trade. Who knows if we'll ever see Kuz. The Forsberg pick was made strictly because he was by far the best player left.
Imo there's the 1st round, and there is the rest of the draft. 3rd rounders are already long shots to ever play in the NHL.

Anyway, if you look at our 2nd and 3rd round picks in the past 10 years, the best ones are Neuvirth and Orlov, both European. Our only NA 2nd or 3rd round pick that has a chance of being an NHLer is Eakin.

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07-04-2012, 05:04 PM
  #925
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Imo there's the 1st round, and there is the rest of the draft. 3rd rounders are already long shots to ever play in the NHL.

Anyway, if you look at our 2nd and 3rd round picks in the past 10 years, the best ones are Neuvirth and Orlov, both European. Our only NA 2nd or 3rd round pick that has a chance of being an NHLer is Eakin.
Good points. I think Orlov was there in round 2 because of the Russian factor.

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