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Don't Do It Dan!!! (All line-up discussion)

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Old
11-26-2011, 11:14 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post

Then again, if it's a shutdown unit and Malkin becomes Staal's winger (winger, not hybrid C/W like he was with Talbot), why not trade Malkin for an top winger and an upgrade on defense?
So you are saying:

IF I CAN'T HAVE GENO AS THE #1 GUY THEN I DON'T WANT HIM AT ALL!!!!!

On 29 teams Geno is the #1 center. I guess it's just his bad luck he plays for the only other team.



Also, what is this upgrade on defense that we need?

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11-26-2011, 11:15 AM
  #77
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I think the Staalkin debate really is one of the healthier ones around here but there's some circular logic that confuses me: So Malkin is going to play his game no matter where he plays, but he must play wing. Why? If it doesn't matter then leave him at center.
People need to get it out of their heads that Sid is going into the playoffs with Dupuis on his RW. Hed be shutdown without another offensive threat on his line. We can do that without making a trade while maintaining the talent level on geno's line and improving Staal's production further.

We can then focus on bringing in a vet #3C and/or upgrade on D.

We don't lose anything defensively and surround both Sid/Geno with our best talent.

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11-26-2011, 11:15 AM
  #78
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I don't see why anyone should be so up in arms about either Sid 'getting' Neal, or Malkin 'getting' Neal. No one should 'get' Neal for any other reason that that's how the team best performs, and while many here may argue on paper, their own inclination is that Neal works best beside Malkin, you can't say for sure unless you try out different lines.

And as said, there's 59 games to do so. Try Staalkin, Hell, try Staalby (hmm, that doesn't work so well). Try the Neal - Crosby - Kunitz line, try the two headed monster line with Neal.

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11-26-2011, 11:15 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
And I can guarantee you he'd still be a 100+ pt player on the wing. Playing on a potent PP, on Sid/Staal's wings, and getting shifts at center.

You'll get more production from Sid with Neal/Sully on his line as well as more from Staal with Geno as a puck carrier.

Explain to me how Geno entering the offensive near the right boards is different when he's at wing vs center. He's going to play his game no matter where he plays.


Give it a shot folks.
1. Because it's by necessity versus by choice. On Staal's wing, just about the only time he sees the puck in the neutral zone is if it's there, he's closest, and he gets to it. At center, he moves there to adjust to the breakout OR he takes the puck there to challenge the defense and exploit. Either way, it's by choice.

2. Because he's coming through the neutral zone with speed at center instead of being flat footed.

By the way, I will repeat: It's not always that way. But, it's more often that way with Malkin at W versus Malkin at C. Frankly, given how Staal plays C with Malkin (i.e., as a pure center) as opposed to how Talbot played C with Malkin (i.e., as a hybrid C/W) and how they've played together in the last three years of their playing together 5 on 5 to suggest that the move justifies taking the second best offensive center in hockey out his natural position and turning him into a guy who gets Staal the puck in the neutral zone and relies on Staal's vision and decision making to see the puck again in the offensive zone. Yeah, they've got chemistry. Yeah, they'll produce. But, if this is the plan, the Pens would be better off with the top winger and defenseman they could get as a start for Malkin.

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11-26-2011, 11:16 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hedberg1 View Post
Bill Guerin signed with Detroit? Oh wait, the guy you're talking about was guy that DIDN'T win the cup with us...
As much as I liked Bill Geurin, I have to ask if you really think he was the long term solution to Sid's wing?

If you do then I'd like to mention at this point that Guerin is now retired.

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11-26-2011, 11:17 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
ROFL . . .

You know what's sad. All of this is a no-brainer. Keep the lines as is, make a deal at the deadline to get Sid an upgrade at RW (if it's a guy under contract or impending RFA and the numbers make sense, neither Bennett nor the #1 for a home draft should be off limits).

What's also sad: If you want to upgrade Sid's line without decapitating Malkin, the obvious answer is to shift Sullivan for an experiment.
I know I really am not getting this one. I usually have the patience to flip through pages to sort it out but if this page is any indicator it'sjust definitely not worth it.

If someone can honestly call themselves a fan of this team and not be ****ing ecstatic with how this roster is composed then I think they've probably been playing a little too much NHL 12. Building the next version of the CASH Line, or whatever superlative group that simply doesn't work in the cap era, is going to get us jack ****.

Building a team which can roll 3 lines that contain players of higher ability than most teams second lines, with a top 4 D that rivals every group in the league, and then a former 1st overall goalie who actually lived up the billing, is what's going to take us back to the promised land. Not ****ing LOL SID NEEDS MOAR POINTS CUZ DUPER CAN'T SCOAR. Hell Dupuis even had 14 points in 20 games before Sid came back. Is there honestly a lazier or more stupid time for people to rehash this tired argument?

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11-26-2011, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I don't see why anyone should be so up in arms about either Sid 'getting' Neal, or Malkin 'getting' Neal. No one should 'get' Neal for any other reason that that's how the team best performs, and while many here may argue on paper, their own inclination is that Neal works best beside Malkin, you can't say for sure unless you try out different lines.

And as said, there's 59 games to do so. Try Staalkin, Hell, try Staalby (hmm, that doesn't work so well). Try the Neal - Crosby - Kunitz line, try the two headed monster line with Neal.
Because people know that a scenario doesn't exist where Neal doesn't work out as Sid's winger and then Malkin won't have him. A fear that keeps the fans up a night.

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11-26-2011, 11:19 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 1 09Cup View Post
As much as I liked Bill Geurin, I have to ask if you really think he was the long term solution Sid's wing?

If you do then I'd like to mention at this point that Guerin is now retired.
Sure, he was only here for 1 1/4 years. But, really, he helped win the Penguins a Stanley Cup. Which is, once again, the whole point of this big thing we call the NHL.

If Shero goes and gets a 38 year old winger for Crosby every year and we win the cup half the time, I could not care less how "long term" the wingers are.

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11-26-2011, 11:20 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
People need to get it out of their heads that Sid is going into the playoffs with Dupuis on his RW. He be shutdown without another offensive threat on his line. We can do that without making a trade while maintaining the talent level on geno's line and improving Staal's production further.

We can then focus on bringing in a vet #3C and/or upgrade on D.

We don't lose anything defensively and surround both Sid/Geno with our best talent.
Don't lump me in that group. For me, the answer always has been this: Deadline comes, Shero adds a legit top two line winger. If he's under contract or an impending RFA like Neal, then I'd part with any offensive prospect, including Bennett, or their #1 to make it happen.

Then, depending upon who is acquired and who he'd work better with, you work the top two lines combos.

In this regard, I've got no problem with the Kunitz-Sid-Neal experiment, because the guy acquired at some point might be a better fit with Geno. At the same time, I hope we'll see different 'experiment' combos (like Sully with Sid and Kunitz) next time there's a blowout game, because that would make what Jiggy is saying a lot less plausible.

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11-26-2011, 11:21 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I know I really am not getting this one. I usually have the patience to flip through pages to sort it out but if this page is any indicator it'sjust definitely not worth it.

If someone can honestly call themselves a fan of this team and not be ****ing ecstatic with how this roster is composed then I think they've probably been playing a little too much NHL 12. Building the next version of the CASH Line, or whatever superlative group that simply doesn't work in the cap era, is going to get us jack ****.

Building a team which can roll 3 lines that contain players of higher ability than most teams second lines, with a top 4 D that rivals every group in the league, and then a former 1st overall goalie who actually lived up the billing, is what's going to take us back to the promised land. Not ****ing LOL SID NEEDS MOAR POINTS CUZ DUPER CAN'T SCOAR. Hell Dupuis even had 14 points in 20 games before Sid came back. Is there honestly a lazier or more stupid time for people to rehash this tired argument?
This. Just this.

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11-26-2011, 11:23 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hedberg1 View Post
Sure, he was only here for 1 1/4 years. But, really, he helped win the Penguins a Stanley Cup. Which is, once again, the whole point of this big thing we call the NHL.

If Shero goes and gets a 38 year old winger for Crosby every year and we win the cup half the time, I could not care less how "long term" the wingers are.
Is your logic that had Hossa stayed and we never pick up Guerin that we don't win that Cup?

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11-26-2011, 11:23 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by 1 09Cup View Post
Because people know that a scenario doesn't exist where Neal doesn't work out as Sid's winger and then Malkin won't have him. A fear that keeps the fans up a night.
I think it's very possible that the best lineup for the team sees Crosby stick beside Kunitz and Dupuis, and the Neal - Malkin - Sullivan line stay in tact.

But the whole outrage that Bylsma may try some different lines and test out different lines before committing to that being the best set up doesn't make any sense and reeks to me of Malkin fanboys crying that their boy doesn't get any respect.

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11-26-2011, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 1 09Cup View Post
Is your logic that had Hossa stayed and we never pick up Guerin that we don't win that Cup?
No, but it worked out that way so why question it?

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11-26-2011, 11:26 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. Because it's by necessity versus by choice. On Staal's wing, just about the only time he sees the puck in the neutral zone is if it's there, he's closest, and he gets to it. At center, he moves there to adjust to the breakout OR he takes the puck there to challenge the defense and exploit. Either way, it's by choice.

2. Because he's coming through the neutral zone with speed at center instead of being flat footed.

By the way, I will repeat: It's not always that way. But, it's more often that way with Malkin at W versus Malkin at C. Frankly, given how Staal plays C with Malkin (i.e., as a pure center) as opposed to how Talbot played C with Malkin (i.e., as a hybrid C/W) and how they've played together in the last three years of their playing together 5 on 5 to suggest that the move justifies taking the second best offensive center in hockey out his natural position and turning him into a guy who gets Staal the puck in the neutral zone and relies on Staal's vision and decision making to see the puck again in the offensive zone. Yeah, they've got chemistry. Yeah, they'll produce. But, if this is the plan, the Pens would be better off with the top winger and defenseman they could get as a start for Malkin.
Maybe Staal can hold onto the puck and make a play kirk?

You act like the play is going to die on Staal's stick. It's been anything but that this year. Geno could benefit from another puck carrier on his line who can make give and go plays and dominate puck possession with their sheer size.

I agree Staal isn't going to be max talbot. But that's not a bad thing. Geno will still run the show in the offensive zone.

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11-26-2011, 11:28 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I think it's very possible that the best lineup for the team sees Crosby stick beside Kunitz and Dupuis, and the Neal - Malkin - Sullivan line stay in tact.

But the whole outrage that Bylsma may try some different lines and test out different lines before committing to that being the best set up doesn't make any sense and reeks to me of Malkin fanboys crying that their boy doesn't get any respect.
The outrage comes not from Bylsma experimenting but from his limiting the experiment to Neal on Sid's wing and Staal centering Malkin or even the Cooke-Dupuis-TK experiment. Did I miss the great preseason line of Sully-Malkin-TK? Did I miss Sid getting a shift with Sully on RW (with Neal-Staal-Malkin behind)? It's when you hear 'experiment' and then look at what the specific experiments are and what ones are avoided that one, like Jiggy, like me, like others, becomes wary.

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11-26-2011, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Maybe Staal can hold onto the puck and make a play kirk?

You act like the play is going to die on Staal's stick. It's been anything but that this year. Geno could benefit from another puck carrier on his line who can make give and go plays and dominate puck possession with their sheer size.

I agree Staal isn't going to be max talbot. But that's not a bad thing. Geno will still run the show in the offensive zone.
Hold on, you said Malkin has played more with Staal than Neal. If Staal can do all of these things as a playmaker for Malkin, then shouldn't there be some significant evidence? And, I'll ask you again: That line played half a game together: Name one time Staal, when he gained the offensive zone after Malkin sprung him, made one of those drop passes that was there (there was one he tried and horribly botched). Name a time he'd look for or get the puck to Malkin early or at the appropriate time in the offensive zone. Staal isn't Max Talbot for Geno, and that's a shame . . . but, hey Malkin gets Staal the puck in the neutral zone, so all is well.

EDIT: I'm not even sure that Talbot was Talbot for Geno outside of those 16 perfectly timed games.

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11-26-2011, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
I think it's very possible that the best lineup for the team sees Crosby stick beside Kunitz and Dupuis, and the Neal - Malkin - Sullivan line stay in tact.

But the whole outrage that Bylsma may try some different lines and test out different lines before committing to that being the best set up doesn't make any sense and reeks to me of Malkin fanboys crying that their boy doesn't get any respect.
You nailed it. That is what I don't understand about this fan base, they only want to win if Geno is taken care of first.

Where did the dislike for Sid come from? Thank god Jagr wasn't a center.

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11-26-2011, 11:36 AM
  #93
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You nailed it. That is what I don't understand about this fan base, they only want to win if Geno is taken care of first.

Where did the dislike for Sid come from? Thank god Jagr wasn't a center.
Can you name one time when Geno was taken care of first?

Better yet, can you name one time under Bylsma when Geno was taken care of before Staal?

Better still, can you name a time that this coaching staff (with Granato, not Fitzie, as assistant) would even juggle the fourth line to mix Geno's linemates if he needed a change?

Don't bother answering anything else. Just answer those questions. By the way, I look forward to your either ignoring this or making some BS up, because there isn't one time that Geno has been valued above Sid, above Staal by Bylsma, or even above the fourth line cohesion by this current coaching staff.

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11-26-2011, 11:37 AM
  #94
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No, but it worked out that way so why question it?
Because that's logical?

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11-26-2011, 11:39 AM
  #95
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You nailed it. That is what I don't understand about this fan base, they only want to win if Geno is taken care of first.

Where did the dislike for Sid come from? Thank god Jagr wasn't a center.
I'm pretty sure biggest 'fanboy' of Malkin in this thread's argument about Malkin utilization (or perceived poorly executed utilization) is that it's a detriment to the team he likes, not the player he's secretly obsessed with above every other aspect of team sports.

But yeah not making any attempt to understand what someone is saying works too.

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11-26-2011, 11:40 AM
  #96
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Hold on, you said Malkin has played more with Staal than Neal. If Staal can do all of these things as a playmaker for Malkin, then shouldn't there be some significant evidence? And, I'll ask you again: That line played half a game together: Name one time Staal, when he gained the offensive zone after Malkin sprung him, made one of those drop passes that was there (there was one he tried and horribly botched). Name a time he'd look for or get the puck to Malkin early or at the appropriate time in the offensive zone. Staal isn't Max Talbot for Geno, and that's a shame . . . but, hey Malkin gets Staal the puck in the neutral zone, so all is well.

EDIT: I'm not even sure that Talbot was Talbot for Geno outside of those 16 perfectly timed games.
If you didnt notice Staal is a far more confident guy with the puck this year. You're basing your opinion off of drop passes? I don't want Staal to be Geno's Talbot. He's far more capable of holding onto the puck in the offensive zone and buying time to make a play.

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11-26-2011, 11:46 AM
  #97
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Because Sidney Crosby is the best player in the league and plays at his best and center as well as being one of the best face-off takers in the league.Makes sense to me. Best player in the world vs. a player who's in contention for spot #2 in the league. Doesn't mean Malkin's not amazing.
Ya I totally disagree.

Malkin's CS says hello and when he is on (see has good linemates instead of the coal miners he usually has) he is the most dominant player in the game.

He has more overall talent than Crosby and no one can take over a game like Malkin.

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If you're insinuating that Malkin is the jealous type who doesn't like Sid taking the spotlight, while I don't know Geno personally, his actions and words have always come across as being someone who's a team first kind of guy and will step into whatever roll he's needed to play. If he needs to put the team on his back, he will, if he's playing second fiddle to Sid, he will. If he needs to play RW on Talbot's line... Hell, he even expressed being excited about playing on a line with Staal before.
No I am insinuating that Malkin has always been the good solider and it is time he gets treated the same as Crosby.

You don't take away Neal because Crosby is "the best player in the game" and whatever other BS ppl. want to throw out.

Please.

Without Malkin there would be no Cup.

Without Crosby there would be no Cup.

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Neal has just plain looked good this year, I don't think it matters where you put him. For the record, I feel great about the lineup as is and if I was coaching this team, I'd leave them be. I'm even happy to see Dupuis stay on Sid's line because he plays the kind of supporting role that helps Sid out quite a bit (although I'd probably play with putting Sullivan in that spot) but the fact is that Dan Bylsma has a better handle on this team than anyone. The guy is just a flat-out outstanding coach. If he decides he sees something that looks like it might be a better fit than more power to him and if he hasn't already proven himself to some Pens fans by now, I'm not sure what else he needs to do to convince them.
Right coaches always break up their best line.

Uh-huh....

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Originally Posted by 1 09Cup View Post
This line right here sums up the fan base. It really isn't about wining, it's about Geno's feelings.

Unbelievable.

I'm glad Bylsma is in charge here. You guys would have Sid on the bus outside because he takes up too much room for Geno to be comfortable on the bench.

Let's just not re-sign Sid if it bothers Geno's ego so much. Whats really funny is if Geno was as outspoken about not getting treated like Sid as you guys are you would turn on him in a second and demand he be traded.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Geno's best is better than Sid's best statement.
It isn't about winning?

This team won what? 11 straight games last season with Kunitz and Dupuis riding shotgun to Crosby... while Makin struggled playing with grubs.

This season the Pens kept winning in large part because of the Sully Malkin Neal line.

Logic dictates you keep those lines together and maybe tinker with Crosby's line to find a better piece than Dupuis, be it a trade, Tangradi, or TK.

Malkin has finally started to look dominant again after struggling much of the last two years, mainly because he has good linemmates again. But you go into a rant about loving Malkin and poor Sid... robble robble robble.

So ya, this is exactly about winning, while your rant is more about what is best for Crosby.

Ironic.

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11-26-2011, 11:53 AM
  #98
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Does anyone else feel Sid has trouble finding chemistry with other players?

He is sooooo good but not easily compatible with other players.
I agree with this as well. I think Sid is very unpredictable (part of what makes him so good) and constantly changes things up to keep the other teams guessing as to what he might do next, it seems like it might be hard for his own teamates to know where to go and what to do as opposed to Malkin, Sully and Neal who seem to play the more traditional style of skating to open space and setting up the shot. I guess a lot of that probably comes from the speed at which Sid plays just making it look like he'd be hard to play with combined with not playing alongside world class wingers.

I'm certainly not saying that one way is better than the other but I think it might be a good reason to pick two wingers for Sid and stick with them.

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11-26-2011, 11:59 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Can you name one time when Geno was taken care of first?

Better yet, can you name one time under Bylsma when Geno was taken care of before Staal?

Better still, can you name a time that this coaching staff (with Granato, not Fitzie, as assistant) would even juggle the fourth line to mix Geno's linemates if he needed a change?

Don't bother answering anything else. Just answer those questions. By the way, I look forward to your either ignoring this or making some BS up, because there isn't one time that Geno has been valued above Sid, above Staal by Bylsma, or even above the fourth line cohesion by this current coaching staff.

I cannot say that it has ever happened, nor did I claim it had.

My contention all along in this thread was I don't understand the thought process of the fan base. Being, we need to take care of Malkin at all costs because Sid is good enough to play with any scrub we happen to pick up.

Name another team in the NHL/AHL where Dupuis is a first line talent. I answered your question, now I ask you answer mine.

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11-26-2011, 11:59 AM
  #100
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2C model:
Sully - Sid - Neal
Koon - Geno - Staal
Dupuis - TK - Cooke
4th line

3C model:
Koon - Sid - Dupuis
Sully - Geno - Neal
Cooke - Staal - Kennedy
4th line

IMO 3C puts more fear into the hearts of opposition, especially with the CSK line.

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