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How many games for Pacioretty? [UPDATE: 3-game suspension]

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Old
11-29-2011, 07:11 AM
  #751
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So you drop the gloves with somebody and take out there eye with the thumb of your glove? Doesn't make any more sense than a solid plastic elbow pad to the head.

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11-29-2011, 07:31 AM
  #752
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Im fine with 3 games but what pisses me off is that Shanahan chose Max to send a message. Seems like hes serious about eliminating headshots again (which is fine by me) after his 2 months hiatus.

Should of been 1 game max if you look at his other rulings.

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11-29-2011, 07:34 AM
  #753
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Ranger fan here & this is a BS call. it's not a blindside hit and the player has a responsibility to protect himself. Nilan summed this up best on TSN 990. Letang sees him coming & decides to shoot , deserves to get hit. The N in NHL is startint to stand for NOcontact.

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11-29-2011, 08:19 AM
  #754
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By Shannahan's own standards this hit should've been borderline, it was in the moment, there was no elbow raised and Letang moved his head. If Chara had done it he woudn't get a game. I'm all for going after head shots, but the NHL's blind spots and most-favored-players double standard are hard to miss. 3 games for this was too much, and it's fairly clear that who the culprit is makes a huge difference to the NHL. After all, Chara and Lucic still have 100% clean records, while Max Pax from now in a repeat offender, and a pretty serious one. Sure, that reflects the way they play. Stoogeahan.

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11-29-2011, 08:44 AM
  #755
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Oh well... This season just gets better! Did the hit deserve a suspension? Yep... Pacioretty should've lowered his body and hit the **** out of Letang's legs! By going for the hit, no way he misses the head, when the head's popping in front of the body, due to the shot.

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I don't mind the 3 games only if we see consistency from now on....
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11-29-2011, 08:47 AM
  #756
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I guess in Shannahan's mind Letang didn't move his head enough to be a factor, and Pacioretty acted with sufficient disregard for Letang's safety that it was worth enforcing the rules.

I don't see a lot of gray here myself. Textbook rule 48. Even if he slightly touched Letang's shoulder, primary contact was with the head (that was clearly where most of the force of the hit went) , and if you classify it as a reckless hit, intent doesn't matter because the onus is on the player to minimize the damaging nature of the hit, which Pacioretty very definitely did not do. Clear rule 48 violation, reckless hit to the head, only question was whether it was the right time to enforce the rule fully or to show a bit of leniency, Shanny enforced the rule.

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11-29-2011, 09:11 AM
  #757
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If you think those hits would be legal than it explains a lot of your posts.
Alot of those hits would be legal. Not all Stevens hits are the same, you can't just throw a blanket over them all and say they wouldn't be allowed, some would and some wouldn't under the new definition of the rules.

I like the idea and premise behind the rules definement and think it's the right course of action, but it's need to be enforced. He was doing great in preseason then suddenly things changed, we may have to deal with the fact players safety isn't the primary concern, nor was it ever.

I'd be fine with the current defintions had he stayed on course with his preseason decisions, he'll make mistakes, which is a given, but now something or someone, changed. I believe someone from higher has put a stop to shanny's decision. If so, rather than be a puppet, I hope he resigns.

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11-29-2011, 09:13 AM
  #758
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No wonder everyone doesnt like Shanny, people commenting dont even know the rule they are talking about.
People don't like Shanny because he's been inconsistent. Most here would not have a problem with the suspension if Malone, Bogosian, Wolski, Lucic, etc would have been suspended for their hits. They weren't, so a lot are making a case that MaxPac maybe shouldn't.
Personally, there's no doubt in my mind, it's a suspension. Problem is BS is all over the place. He could change the name of the players in his videos, and sometimes it would be the exact same. The difference is that one player gets suspended, and the other doesn't.
Very much like Mike Murphy last year regarding Chara, and then Rome. You could have used the exact same words he expressed in order to explain his decisions but switch Rome with Chara, and MaxPac with Horton. Difference is one player got nothing, Chara, while the other got the biggest suspension ever given to a player in the Finals.
Much of the same is happening with Shanny. He sucks.

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I thought shanny was doing an excellent job in the beginning, then something happened, Don Cherry, Marty Brodeur and others came in and said he was going over board when really he wasn't. He was doing exactly what he should have been.

I'm of the thoughts these aren't Shanny's decisions he have been given a direction by the league, no matter who is charge Shanny, Campbell, the result is the same.

I'd normally have np with this being a suspension if his direction that he followed in preseason was the rule of the land, but it isn't. It's all over the map.

This is turning into a garage league where players are suspended for open ice hits and let off free for hitting goaltenders. BS has been more inconsistent then CC and he's turning me off this game altogether, it's obvious the refs, the league can't get things right, so perhaps they should allow the players to police themselves like they have in the past, this **** is getting ridiculous.
I had the feeling right from the start as we had discussed that things were not going to change. I had no reason to trust this league really. Glad to see you noticing it.

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krisse, you're right on a few points, but suspending every contact with the head would be a disaster and would only hurt this league. Stop with this idiotic stance please.
But how idiotic is it really? It would be consistent, more suspensions would be handed out, and the head shots would likely decrease. It's pretty simple and obvious to me. Most of the hits that Shanny is being criticized on for letting go would have been suspended. I think it would make things a whole lot less easier. Hits to the head like Malone's on Campoli and Bogosian on Eakin, etc should not be ignored. Having this rule would insure that these hits would all be worthy of suspensions, which would bring consistency.
Some feel it would change the game and scare players from hitting. I strongly disagree, but no point in going into this debate again. Feel free to disagree, just don't call it idiotic. What we currently have is idiotic. This might be more strict, but certainly not idiotic.

I can agree on a common ground. If the players don't really care about decapitating each other's heads, then they should ''allowed'' to police themselves. Take out the instigator rule and the game misconducts for fighting. The problem here would mean the Refs would have more work. But if they aren't going to suspend players properly, might as well try another route.

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11-29-2011, 09:14 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Patches hit on Letang bears little to no resemblance to Lucic's hit on Miller, which was straight on and not from the blind-side.

If you want to see a nearly identical hit to Patches, check out Paille on Sawada. If anything, Paille caught more shoulder initially and the follow through hit the head, while MP's hit on Letang was elbow to chin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mJbK...eature=related

BTW, Paille was suspended for 4 games, one more than Pacioretty, for a nearly identical hit, so can we drop the conspiracy talk?
The hit does look very similar. Thanks for the link.

As for Lucic's hit on Miller, it's probably the most deliberate wrong hit we'll see this year, on the worst possible target. I takes no skill or toughness to deck another team's goalie, but somehow every player understands you don't do that. Except Lucic. Anyone who makes excuses for his actions loses all credibility to point fingers at other players.

This isn't directed at you personally, because I think you're being constructive with your comments, but if a fan base expects other fans to step up and accept responsibility, they can't duck-and-cover every time a player from their team injures someone. Check your own boards -- the majority of Bruins fans make excuse after excuse after excuse for their players' actions, and then wonder why they're not taken seriously when they comment on other players' actions.

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11-29-2011, 09:19 AM
  #760
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I've got no issue with the suspension...before it was announced, I thought 2 games was the max he'd get, he got 3 so i'm not goona whine over 1 extra game. At the end of the day, it's the kind of hit the NHL is trying to get rid of.

But the problem I do have is with the consistency and that's where the NHL and Shanahan specifically, need to do a better job. These video explanations are great for fans/media, but I personally find they allow for alot of ambiguity and second guessing.

You can go over each and everyone of his video explanations and you can find instances where he's contradicting himself. A lot of his reasoning is purely his own interpretation, and that's fine given his position, but as I said, it allows for alot of second guessing.

While I do think it's pointless to try to tie in Pacioretty's suspension to previous acts that went without a suspension, I do think it's a natural reaction when the explanations given by Shanny contradict themselves.

The best thing the NHL should do...is get rid of these dumb *** video breakdowns of hits. He's the head of discipline, it's up to him to make the call and I don't see why anyone who is not directly involved in the incident, needs to know why he's made his decision.

I would have preferred Shanahan put out a video stating he suspended Pacioretty because "he can" than the lame explanation he gave in that video, because I just feel like he's playing me for a fool with that.

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11-29-2011, 09:20 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Alot of those hits would be legal. Not all Stevens hits are the same, you can't just throw a blanket over them all and say they wouldn't be allowed, some would and some wouldn't under the new definition of the rules.

I like the idea and premise behind the rules definement and think it's the right course of action, but it's need to be enforced. He was doing great in preseason then suddenly things changed, we may have to deal with the fact players safety isn't the primary concern, nor was it ever.

I'd be fine with the current defintions had he stayed on course with his preseason decisions, he'll make mistakes, which is a given, but now something or someone, changed. I believe someone from higher has put a stop to shanny's decision. If so, rather than be a puppet, I hope he resigns.
None of the hits shown in the highlight reel from Stevens would be legal. Primary point on contact is the head, and they are blindsided. Maybe one of them would be legal, but not the rest. Anyway, no point in discussing this further.

As for Shanny. I'm not so sure if someone from upstairs made him change his ways. Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't know. I discussed this with you during preseason. I did not expect this to continue during the season, where the games actually matter.
It doesn't mean I was right, you can always bring up the Wiz suspension and how he got 2+8, so maybe he did get a call after that one. No one will know. All I can say is that my gut feeling told me this wouldn't last, because this is the NHL.

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11-29-2011, 09:23 AM
  #762
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the idiotic stance would have made for 3 or 4 more players to be suspended for a game or two, not a dozen, not twenty, not fifty either... 3 or 4 (Malone ? Wolski ? Bogosian ? who else ?)...

if THAT would kill the league, then the league is in trouble big time.
There have been way more contact with the head than 3 or 4, they happen literally every game. Suspending all of them would make the league look like even more a joke then it does now.

You think those 3 are the only guys to make head contact, hahahahahaha. Please, wake up.

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11-29-2011, 09:27 AM
  #763
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None of the hits shown in the highlight reel from Stevens would be legal. Primary point on contact is the head, and they are blindsided. Maybe one of them would be legal, but not the rest. Anyway, no point in discussing this further.

As for Shanny. I'm not so sure if someone from upstairs made him change his ways. Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't know. I discussed this with you during preseason. I did not expect this to continue during the season, where the games actually matter.
It doesn't mean I was right, you can always bring up the Wiz suspension and how he got 2+8, so maybe he did get a call after that one. No one will know. All I can say is that my gut feeling told me this wouldn't last, because this is the NHL.
I also didn't think things would change with Shanny, because to me, the issue has never been the discipline..it's been the players themselves, the responsibility is theirs. The threat of suspension will never deter dangerous hits...

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11-29-2011, 09:36 AM
  #764
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Ranger fan here & this is a BS call. it's not a blindside hit and the player has a responsibility to protect himself. Nilan summed this up best on TSN 990. Letang sees him coming & decides to shoot , deserves to get hit. The N in NHL is startint to stand for NOcontact.
Shanahan is not suspending the decision to make a hit, he is suspending the decision to hit the head when it was so easy to just go for the body. It is a well deserved suspension and hopefully it will set the Shanabans on the right track again. A few hits did slip under his watch.

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11-29-2011, 09:37 AM
  #765
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The only way the NHL is going to get consistent with supplemental punishment is to a) classify each incident b) have a chart to look up and give the same number of games based on the incident and the 'history' ie first-offence, second, etc ...

As a habs fan i expected him to get suspended as this is just the sort of hit that needs to go away, but you cant arbitrarily give games / give no games based on the same criteria.

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11-29-2011, 09:38 AM
  #766
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I don't mind Pac being suspended, althouth 3 games is way too much compared to what others got, and if you start analyzing all the calls and non-calls(hearings that went well with 'BS'), there's a huge gap in logic.

How many players have been suspended for 1+ games this season and yet didn't have the player injured for the following game? Pac had no other prior than a warning and the hit (present) is similar to other non-calls.

Let Crosby, Malone, Lucic, Chara, Bogosian, Myers and others give the example of what they can do legally...

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11-29-2011, 09:48 AM
  #767
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I guess in Shannahan's mind Letang didn't move his head enough to be a factor, and Pacioretty acted with sufficient disregard for Letang's safety that it was worth enforcing the rules.

I don't see a lot of gray here myself. Textbook rule 48. Even if he slightly touched Letang's shoulder, primary contact was with the head (that was clearly where most of the force of the hit went) , and if you classify it as a reckless hit, intent doesn't matter because the onus is on the player to minimize the damaging nature of the hit, which Pacioretty very definitely did not do. Clear rule 48 violation, reckless hit to the head, only question was whether it was the right time to enforce the rule fully or to show a bit of leniency, Shanny enforced the rule.
I think that's what most people here are saying: clearly a suspendable hit. From habs fans perspective though, it is unbearably ironic that the buck finally stopped here. What most of us are saying is that 3 games is heavy handed given the context. And it is.

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11-29-2011, 09:49 AM
  #768
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I also didn't think things would change with Shanny, because to me, the issue has never been the discipline..it's been the players themselves, the responsibility is theirs. The threat of suspension will never deter dangerous hits...
That's because the suspensions are a joke. 1-3 games will not prevent anything.
I don't think Wiz wants to forfeit 8 games of salary anymore though, or more considering he's a repeat offender.

You have to be harsh with the suspensions, otherwise you have to let them take care of themselves.

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11-29-2011, 09:53 AM
  #769
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I think that's what most people here are saying: clearly a suspendable hit. From habs fans perspective though, it is unbearably ironic that the buck finally stopped here. What most of us are saying is that 3 games is heavy handed given the context. And it is.
I dunno. The average suspension for this kind of hit is 2 games, and throw in the fact that Letang was bleeding on the ice and it's not hard to figure out where the other game came from. This kind of hit really doesn't reflect well on the NHL at all.

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11-29-2011, 10:04 AM
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That's because the suspensions are a joke. 1-3 games will not prevent anything.
I don't think Wiz wants to forfeit 8 games of salary anymore though, or more considering he's a repeat offender.

You have to be harsh with the suspensions, otherwise you have to let them take care of themselves.
But Wiz has been suspended multiple times...it didn't stop him from commiting his latest transgression.

I think it's foolish to think that a player, in the heat of the moment thinks to himself he may be suspended before making a dangerous hit or dangerous act, and thus prevents himself from doing so. The sport of hockey is violent and most players are so primed during a game that sometimes, the wires connect and they do something stupid without thinking, kind of like Pacioretty did.

Length of suspensions is not the issue...respect between players is, that and the very nature of the sport, make it nearly impossible to avoid dangerous hits all together. Not to mention the media coverage around sports in general, where every thing is replayed/reviewed a thousand times over.

Players are bigger, faster and stronger, the game is aggressive by nature and fans/media/coaches encourage physicalilty, and the dimensions of the ice are the same...you're bound to get unfortunate high speed collisions. It's just the nature of the beast.

Looking at the length of suspensions is failing to look at the bigger picture...but i'm not surprised, this is the NHL, evolution and progression isn't exactly it's calling card. Not too long ago, helmets weren't even mandatory

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11-29-2011, 10:06 AM
  #771
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I dunno. The average suspension for this kind of hit is 2 games, and throw in the fact that Letang was bleeding on the ice and it's not hard to figure out where the other game came from. This kind of hit really doesn't reflect well on the NHL at all.
Neither does the Wolski hit or the Malone hit, both of which are similar, both of which went unsuspended. The three games would have been very easy to stomach if these had been given the 2 game average.

It has to start sometime, I agree - but now? Really? Whatever you say, shanny.

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11-29-2011, 10:12 AM
  #772
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I dunno. The average suspension for this kind of hit is 2 games, and throw in the fact that Letang was bleeding on the ice and it's not hard to figure out where the other game came from. This kind of hit really doesn't reflect well on the NHL at all.
Well that's the thing...it's not the case. Had it been, I don't think you'd be seeing this much angst among the Habs fanbase. It might be wrong to compare previous incidents with the Pacioretty one, but can you blame them?

Again, i'd prefer Shanny do away with those brutal videos explaining his decisions...I just feel like he's taking me for a fool, just suspend them because you can and it's your job to. I don't need to know why people in positions of authority, do what they do...it just allows me and others to question and put their credibility into doubt.

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11-29-2011, 10:16 AM
  #773
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I like the Shannahan videos. I definitely prefer his method of explaining why he arrived at a ruling to Campbell's.

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11-29-2011, 10:19 AM
  #774
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I like the Shannahan videos. I definitely prefer his method of explaining why he arrived at a ruling to Campbell's.
To each his own...I think it's just to appease people (fans/media), but really, if you look at the videos, all it does is show how Shanny contradicts himself or it shows how HE interprets certain incidents. Not sure why I need to know that

You're the head of discipline, that's your job...make the call. End of story.


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11-29-2011, 10:29 AM
  #775
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Patches hit on Letang bears little to no resemblance to Lucic's hit on Miller, which was straight on and not from the blind-side.

If you want to see a nearly identical hit to Patches, check out Paille on Sawada. If anything, Paille caught more shoulder initially and the follow through hit the head, while MP's hit on Letang was elbow to chin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mJbK...eature=related



BTW, Paille was suspended for 4 games, one more than Pacioretty, for a nearly identical hit, so can we drop the conspiracy talk?
Paille skated in from behind with the possible intent to hit him. No chance for the Stars player to even see him. Pacioretty was already in the Habs zone before Letang even crossed the blueline. He even looks up and sees Pacioretty and takes the risk regardless. There's your potential conspiracy shoot down.

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