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Gm #23 Kings v. Blackhawks, 11/26/11 - Post Game LOSS, Thoughts & Tidbits

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11-27-2011, 07:23 PM
  #176
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Lombardi can't wait around for Penner to get healthy to make some sort of change. As if Penner getting healthy would change anything.
Why can't he wait?

What's the rush?

DL's smart to wait, imo.

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11-27-2011, 07:23 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Whiskeypete View Post
The team at this rate is stuck in neutral and beginning to regress. It may seem a bit harsh but let’s face facts at the quarter mark of the season. They lack goal scoring almost every night. The defensive play continues to look worse than it has in years. The PK isn’t anywhere close to where it has been in the past. At this point the two bright spots are the PP and the play of Quick in net. If it wasn’t for these two LA would be in far worse situation than they currently are in.

To me the most concerning thing at this point is consistency and effort. When teams have problems in these areas it typically means there are underlying issues. As fans we aren’t privy to all the inner workings and developments of the team. As fans though, we aren’t dumb when it comes to this because we have seen it countless times in other sports and teams.

It isn’t any different than what we experience in our rl’s at work. For example, the “unspoken” truths within a work environment about co-workers, managers and the overall environment. No one wants to rock the proverbial boat at work and everyone continues going through the motions, because they don’t want to be the one that speaks publicly about the place. In the meantime, the workplace becomes a cancerous environment and work results begin to under perform.

For the past month the team has been carried along by Kopi, Richards and Quick. Take them out of the equation and this team is in the cellar. The rest of the roster has for the most part just ‘shown’ up and not done anything. The coaches have essentially done nothing to change this situation, except for the usual line shuffling and scratches.
Well it’s time for two people on the Kings to stand up and be counted, before this situation spirals out of control further. DL and DB. Face it this team has flipped the switch off on Murray. This was becoming apparent even before Quick put up his 3 shutout performance and the team won a few games. If it wasn’t for that stretch of games I think changes would have happened, because the team was beginning to show problems. The same problems that are clearly evident now. LA has gone 6-10 since the three shutouts, even adding the three shutout wins to this and LA has a losing record over the past 19 games. At best this team has played just below .500 for the past month.

DB needs to rally the team to play for each other at this point. DB then needs to talk with DL about the situation and what is happening. DL then needs to man up and see it’s time for a change. I don’t see the firing of Murray as an ‘omission of a mistake’ by DL as many point out. If DL is going to progress and show HIS value, then it is time for him to take control and guide the team the way good GM’s do. That starts with the coach(es) he puts in place to lead and guide the team. At this point for him to remain idle and ‘hope’ this turns around will ultimately be his downfall.

This situation has been brewing for the past two seasons and finally looks as though it has come full circle. There are too many peaks and valleys for this team at this juncture. The depths of the valleys seem to get deeper and the peaks are becoming shorter in length. For a team with the depth, maturity and talent they possess this is unacceptable. A coach has two main responsibilities to have his team prepared for every game and to make adjustments on the fly to give the team a chance to win every night. These two things clearly aren’t happening any longer for LA.

When it comes to the coach himself let me say this. Murray did a great job of mentoring and installing a very sound defensive approach into a young team that gave them a chance to compete every night. At the time it was something that needed to be done, in order for them to mature and improve their games long-term. Murray was the right coach, at the right time. He was brought in during a re-build period and accomplished what needed to be done at the time. Murray was able to stabilize a team and give them a foundation to work from moving forward. The problem is that the team, roster, the game itself, and the maturity of the team have moved forward but he hasn’t. I am positive Murray (because every coach does) asks for his players to change and adapt to meet challenges. But where in the past few years has Murray himself exhibited signs of adaptation and change to meet the challenges the team is facing? Personally I don’t see or can even point anything out, because we continue to see the same game each night we flip on the TV, tune in the radio or drive to the rink.

I see the same thing happening in STL at this very moment with Hitchcock and the Blues. In 2-3 years from now Hitchcock will be gone in STL mark my words. In the meantime, he has come to STL and taken a young club and put in a system/style of play that has existed for decades in the NHL. To play a defensive style that looks to capitalize on turnovers and mistakes of the opponent, while minimizing its own mistakes. This and the ‘shot mentality’ work together because both of them boil down to one thing. The ‘law of averages (or percentages)’ depending on which you prefer to name it. Essentially you increase your chance of success while minimizing your opponent’s chance of success.

Where this ‘style’ goes off track is when you play against a team that plays the same style and has either better skill and/or effort. One doesn’t have to look far this season and compare LA to some of the teams they have lost to and see this. Look at the results of the two games against STL this year. The first game LA blew away the Blues, because of better skill set and effort that particular night. The second game Hitchcock is in place with a system that reduced LA’s opportunities compared to the first game. STL put out I think more effort and LA only won the game because of Bernier making some key saves.

Where this style ultimately fails is when you play against a team that plays an up tempo puck possession style. What’s worse is to compare some of the teams that don’t play this type of game and prefer more of a pure puck possession style of play. The games against VAN, SJ and DET make it look as though they are just toying with LA. Who are the teams that LA will have to get past to get to the promised land? VAN, SJ, DET and CHI all these teams play the up tempo puck possession style of game that makes LA look out of place. Of these CHI is most similar to LA, but even with its top two lines of skill/possession play they just run circles around LA.

The ‘big boys’ or the elite teams of the league play at a different level and in order for LA to compete against them, they need to be able to counter these teams. LA has made the playoffs the past two years and come away with two 1st round exits. To me this is plenty of proof that LA cannot and does not possess what it will take to advance past these teams. Not when if they continue the current course they are taking. Continuing to think this is the year they will win is just foolhardy under this current system. LA’s current ‘style’ plays into the hands of the teams they are trying to beat. Instead of creating turnovers/opportunities for themselves, LA turns the puck over to a puck possession team that simply turns the table on them.

Here we must look at the roster and what it gives Murray when it comes to options. This roster is built to play the old school muck and grind style, but most of the wingers on the team lack any resemblance of a scoring touch. A team can muck and grind all they want but it’s all for naught when the puck finally is put into a situation where someone has to bury it. You win by scoring goals, not by time of possession in the offensive zone. The makeup of the roster is a compromise between a head coach, the GM and the salary cap. The coach and GM must be on the same page when it comes to building a roster. If not then you’ve got major issues, because guys can’t just go out and fill roles they don’t have the skills or physical build to achieve.

Just look at the Chargers (NFL) misery the past few years on defense to prove this point. The defense was still based on a 3-4 defense, that needed a dominant NT with LB’s that could exploit the gaps with speed and strength. The defense went downhill with the release of J Williams and the eventual downslide of the LB corp. The same expectations were placed on the defense, but they no longer had the proper personnel to play the scheme and produce results.

Now back to the Kings and how over the years they have lost players best suited to this style, but the expectations remain the same. Players like Handzus, Simmonds, Smyth and Frolov. Whether you liked them or still wished they were on the team today I have two issues. The first issue I have is if suitable replacements have not taken place to fill the role. Second, if the roster spot wasn’t able to be filled with a player of similar skill/build, then why hasn’t the team adapted its play?

All of these guys are big bodies with some very good skills when it comes to maintaining control and mucking along the boards. The current roster lacks the same degree of talent in this area, but Murray insists to play the same game. When the results he wants aren’t achieved, then he criticizes the players for this. Who’s to blame? Murray for not adapting to what he has at his disposal? Lombardi for not getting Murray similar replacements? The players for not producing?

To me it is a mixture of all of these. It always comes down to using the assets you have today to your best ability. The team, the coaches and the management regime clearly are not all on the same page at this point.

I still think Lombardi is a good GM. He has brought the team back to respectability. He has added depth and some good skill into the system. Yes he still hasn’t landed the big FA, or drafted the true #1 winger we covet. What he does now I think will ultimately determine his legacy. The Kings are at a key cross roads and his leadership/decision making will determine if they make the next step. He made the right choice years ago by bringing Murray in to turn this team around. Now he is faced with a similar step that must be taken, to get the team over this next critical step. the Kings at this point need to sit down from GM to players and talk about this. Call it a state of the union address among themselves. They need to come together as an organization and determine just where they are and where they want to be. To me it seems like the three levels aren't all on the same page (team management, coaching, players).

Sorry so long, but the more I thought about this. The more I thought about where ‘issues’ lie with LA at least to me. There are plenty of them that are on the surface and quick to point out. What’s more troubling to me is what lies beneath the surface at this point. This is what I chose to focus on at this point
So it is possible to talk in a realistic way about the team without coming across as smug.

Good post.

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Old
11-27-2011, 07:25 PM
  #178
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Whiskeypete View Post
The team at this rate is stuck in neutral and beginning to regress. It may seem a bit harsh but let’s face facts at the quarter mark of the season. They lack goal scoring almost every night. The defensive play continues to look worse than it has in years. The PK isn’t anywhere close to where it has been in the past. At this point the two bright spots are the PP and the play of Quick in net. If it wasn’t for these two LA would be in far worse situation than they currently are in.

To me the most concerning thing at this point is consistency and effort. When teams have problems in these areas it typically means there are underlying issues. As fans we aren’t privy to all the inner workings and developments of the team. As fans though, we aren’t dumb when it comes to this because we have seen it countless times in other sports and teams.

It isn’t any different than what we experience in our rl’s at work. For example, the “unspoken” truths within a work environment about co-workers, managers and the overall environment. No one wants to rock the proverbial boat at work and everyone continues going through the motions, because they don’t want to be the one that speaks publicly about the place. In the meantime, the workplace becomes a cancerous environment and work results begin to under perform.

For the past month the team has been carried along by Kopi, Richards and Quick. Take them out of the equation and this team is in the cellar. The rest of the roster has for the most part just ‘shown’ up and not done anything. The coaches have essentially done nothing to change this situation, except for the usual line shuffling and scratches.
Well it’s time for two people on the Kings to stand up and be counted, before this situation spirals out of control further. DL and DB. Face it this team has flipped the switch off on Murray. This was becoming apparent even before Quick put up his 3 shutout performance and the team won a few games. If it wasn’t for that stretch of games I think changes would have happened, because the team was beginning to show problems. The same problems that are clearly evident now. LA has gone 6-10 since the three shutouts, even adding the three shutout wins to this and LA has a losing record over the past 19 games. At best this team has played just below .500 for the past month.

DB needs to rally the team to play for each other at this point. DB then needs to talk with DL about the situation and what is happening. DL then needs to man up and see it’s time for a change. I don’t see the firing of Murray as an ‘omission of a mistake’ by DL as many point out. If DL is going to progress and show HIS value, then it is time for him to take control and guide the team the way good GM’s do. That starts with the coach(es) he puts in place to lead and guide the team. At this point for him to remain idle and ‘hope’ this turns around will ultimately be his downfall.

This situation has been brewing for the past two seasons and finally looks as though it has come full circle. There are too many peaks and valleys for this team at this juncture. The depths of the valleys seem to get deeper and the peaks are becoming shorter in length. For a team with the depth, maturity and talent they possess this is unacceptable. A coach has two main responsibilities to have his team prepared for every game and to make adjustments on the fly to give the team a chance to win every night. These two things clearly aren’t happening any longer for LA.

When it comes to the coach himself let me say this. Murray did a great job of mentoring and installing a very sound defensive approach into a young team that gave them a chance to compete every night. At the time it was something that needed to be done, in order for them to mature and improve their games long-term. Murray was the right coach, at the right time. He was brought in during a re-build period and accomplished what needed to be done at the time. Murray was able to stabilize a team and give them a foundation to work from moving forward. The problem is that the team, roster, the game itself, and the maturity of the team have moved forward but he hasn’t. I am positive Murray (because every coach does) asks for his players to change and adapt to meet challenges. But where in the past few years has Murray himself exhibited signs of adaptation and change to meet the challenges the team is facing? Personally I don’t see or can even point anything out, because we continue to see the same game each night we flip on the TV, tune in the radio or drive to the rink.

I see the same thing happening in STL at this very moment with Hitchcock and the Blues. In 2-3 years from now Hitchcock will be gone in STL mark my words. In the meantime, he has come to STL and taken a young club and put in a system/style of play that has existed for decades in the NHL. To play a defensive style that looks to capitalize on turnovers and mistakes of the opponent, while minimizing its own mistakes. This and the ‘shot mentality’ work together because both of them boil down to one thing. The ‘law of averages (or percentages)’ depending on which you prefer to name it. Essentially you increase your chance of success while minimizing your opponent’s chance of success.

Where this ‘style’ goes off track is when you play against a team that plays the same style and has either better skill and/or effort. One doesn’t have to look far this season and compare LA to some of the teams they have lost to and see this. Look at the results of the two games against STL this year. The first game LA blew away the Blues, because of better skill set and effort that particular night. The second game Hitchcock is in place with a system that reduced LA’s opportunities compared to the first game. STL put out I think more effort and LA only won the game because of Bernier making some key saves.

Where this style ultimately fails is when you play against a team that plays an up tempo puck possession style. What’s worse is to compare some of the teams that don’t play this type of game and prefer more of a pure puck possession style of play. The games against VAN, SJ and DET make it look as though they are just toying with LA. Who are the teams that LA will have to get past to get to the promised land? VAN, SJ, DET and CHI all these teams play the up tempo puck possession style of game that makes LA look out of place. Of these CHI is most similar to LA, but even with its top two lines of skill/possession play they just run circles around LA.

The ‘big boys’ or the elite teams of the league play at a different level and in order for LA to compete against them, they need to be able to counter these teams. LA has made the playoffs the past two years and come away with two 1st round exits. To me this is plenty of proof that LA cannot and does not possess what it will take to advance past these teams. Not when if they continue the current course they are taking. Continuing to think this is the year they will win is just foolhardy under this current system. LA’s current ‘style’ plays into the hands of the teams they are trying to beat. Instead of creating turnovers/opportunities for themselves, LA turns the puck over to a puck possession team that simply turns the table on them.

Here we must look at the roster and what it gives Murray when it comes to options. This roster is built to play the old school muck and grind style, but most of the wingers on the team lack any resemblance of a scoring touch. A team can muck and grind all they want but it’s all for naught when the puck finally is put into a situation where someone has to bury it. You win by scoring goals, not by time of possession in the offensive zone. The makeup of the roster is a compromise between a head coach, the GM and the salary cap. The coach and GM must be on the same page when it comes to building a roster. If not then you’ve got major issues, because guys can’t just go out and fill roles they don’t have the skills or physical build to achieve.

Just look at the Chargers (NFL) misery the past few years on defense to prove this point. The defense was still based on a 3-4 defense, that needed a dominant NT with LB’s that could exploit the gaps with speed and strength. The defense went downhill with the release of J Williams and the eventual downslide of the LB corp. The same expectations were placed on the defense, but they no longer had the proper personnel to play the scheme and produce results.

Now back to the Kings and how over the years they have lost players best suited to this style, but the expectations remain the same. Players like Handzus, Simmonds, Smyth and Frolov. Whether you liked them or still wished they were on the team today I have two issues. The first issue I have is if suitable replacements have not taken place to fill the role. Second, if the roster spot wasn’t able to be filled with a player of similar skill/build, then why hasn’t the team adapted its play?

All of these guys are big bodies with some very good skills when it comes to maintaining control and mucking along the boards. The current roster lacks the same degree of talent in this area, but Murray insists to play the same game. When the results he wants aren’t achieved, then he criticizes the players for this. Who’s to blame? Murray for not adapting to what he has at his disposal? Lombardi for not getting Murray similar replacements? The players for not producing?

To me it is a mixture of all of these. It always comes down to using the assets you have today to your best ability. The team, the coaches and the management regime clearly are not all on the same page at this point.

I still think Lombardi is a good GM. He has brought the team back to respectability. He has added depth and some good skill into the system. Yes he still hasn’t landed the big FA, or drafted the true #1 winger we covet. What he does now I think will ultimately determine his legacy. The Kings are at a key cross roads and his leadership/decision making will determine if they make the next step. He made the right choice years ago by bringing Murray in to turn this team around. Now he is faced with a similar step that must be taken, to get the team over this next critical step. the Kings at this point need to sit down from GM to players and talk about this. Call it a state of the union address among themselves. They need to come together as an organization and determine just where they are and where they want to be. To me it seems like the three levels aren't all on the same page (team management, coaching, players).

Sorry so long, but the more I thought about this. The more I thought about where ‘issues’ lie with LA at least to me. There are plenty of them that are on the surface and quick to point out. What’s more troubling to me is what lies beneath the surface at this point. This is what I chose to focus on at this point
You been hanging around with TG?

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11-27-2011, 07:43 PM
  #179
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I have no love for TM but he is just playing the lousy hand that DL has dealt him.

I don't have a major disagreement with whiskeypete's tome but I do believe he is being far too forgiving of DL's incompetence over the past 5 1/2 years.

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11-27-2011, 08:01 PM
  #180
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I have no love for TM but he is just playing the lousy hand that DL has dealt him.

I don't have a major disagreement with whiskeypete's tome but I do believe he is being far too forgiving of DL's incompetence over the past 5 1/2 years.
im not absolving him of all his mistakes. they have as much to do with where this team is today, as Murray's coaching and the players lack of production. all of them flow together like three small streams merging together to become a river.

past mistakes aside, like i said DL's assessment and handling of the team in next 30-60 days will determine where his legacy and where this team finishes not just this season, but for the next few seasons. change MUST happen at this point. the team right now is stuck in limbo and Murray doesn't have the answers. Hunter to the #1 line.....yeah right. that is a coach just grasping for anything at this point.

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11-27-2011, 08:03 PM
  #181
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I'm confused - what positive direction? They are wallowing in games, out of a playoff position, one of the worst offenses in the NHL, no production out of the 3rd or 4th lines, no one to step in from the minors to help out NOW, and a guy who has been a healthy scratch as often as he has played this year who hasn't scored a goal in over a year is now the 1st line right wing...

In order to deliver on the next level, wouldn't it be nice if they could deliver on THIS level first? In Andy Murray's final season (2005/6), after 23 games the Kings were 15-7-1 for 31 points - suddenly the current 26 points doesn't look so hot.
And how did the Kings finish that season?

I hate the selective use of stats to prove some vague point. I don't remember have you advocated firing Lombardi?

You don't think the organization is in a better position now than when Lombardi took over?

You seriously want to compare now to then? Maybe that's why I take everything you post as merely unwarranted pessimism.

Whiskey - that was a very good, thought provoking post.


Last edited by KINGS17: 11-27-2011 at 08:15 PM.
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11-27-2011, 08:06 PM
  #182
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im not absolving him of all his mistakes. they have as much to do with where this team is today, as Murray's coaching and the players lack of production. all of them flow together like three small streams merging together to become a river.

past mistakes aside, like i said DL's assessment and handling of the team in next 30-60 days will determine where his legacy and where this team finishes not just this season, but for the next few seasons. change MUST happen at this point. the team right now is stuck in limbo and Murray doesn't have the answers. Hunter to the #1 line.....yeah right. that is a coach just grasping for anything at this point.
fair enough...no disagreement.

Unfortunately, this team has so little NHL caliber depth that any "changes" will simply be filling one hole and creating another. I just don't see that the Kings have much of interest to offer to other teams at this point.

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11-27-2011, 08:10 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Whiskeypete View Post
im not absolving him of all his mistakes. they have as much to do with where this team is today, as Murray's coaching and the players lack of production. all of them flow together like three small streams merging together to become a river.

past mistakes aside, like i said DL's assessment and handling of the team in next 30-60 days will determine where his legacy and where this team finishes not just this season, but for the next few seasons. change MUST happen at this point. the team right now is stuck in limbo and Murray doesn't have the answers. Hunter to the #1 line.....yeah right. that is a coach just grasping for anything at this point.
If you're Hunter, how would you feel knowing that TM is giving you an opportunity on the first line? Try and see it from Hunter's perspective, and not just from a fan's perspective.

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11-27-2011, 08:14 PM
  #184
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I have no love for TM but he is just playing the lousy hand that DL has dealt him.

I don't have a major disagreement with whiskeypete's tome but I do believe he is being far too forgiving of DL's incompetence over the past 5 1/2 years.
I have posted this before, but people as usual just choose to bury their heads in the sand instead of addressing this issue.

GOALS FOR RANKING FOR EVERY TEAM MANAGED BY DEAN LOMBARDI

1997 Sharks - 26 out of 26
1998 Sharks - 18 out of 26
1999 Sharks - 21 out of 27
2000 Sharks - 16 out of 28
2001 Sharks - 17 out of 30
2002 Sharks - 4 out of 30
2003 Sharks - 15 out of 30
2007 Kings - 20 out of 30
2008 Kings - 14 out of 30
2009 Kings - 28 out of 30
2010 Kings - 7 out of 30
2011 Kings - 22 out of 30
2012 Kings - 25 out of 30

These teams were coached by Al Sims, Daryl Sutter, Marc Crawford and Terry Murray.

Why should I have faith in this guy getting us a Top 8 offense, and isn't a bit ridiculous with this history to be blaming TM for all the Kings woes?

TM and his archaic style (which is also Lombardi's style) certainly is to blame in part for this mess we're in, but the fact remains, the Kings dont have enough goal-scorers on the roster, and that totally falls on Dean.

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11-27-2011, 08:16 PM
  #185
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Whoa Whiskey!! Very good and valid points. So very true that we don't have the types of players that suits the TM system. You utilize strengths of a certain players. I can't think of anybody currently on the roster that is excellent along the boards.

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11-27-2011, 08:18 PM
  #186
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If you're Hunter, how would you feel knowing that TM is giving you an opportunity on the first line? Try and see it from Hunter's perspective, and not just from a fan's perspective.
Are you serious? This is professional hockey not tee-ball . Who cares how Trent Hunter feels, the guy is paid a lot of money to play hockey and contribute to this team winning, and he hasn't done much of it this year.

How can you defend putting a guy with zero goals on a line with our best player, but what can I say, you're also the guy who thinks Ethan Moreau has been a positive for the team this season.

I'm starting to wonder if this may not be someone just having a good laugh with us, some of these posts can't be serious.

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11-27-2011, 08:22 PM
  #187
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I don't think firing DL is the right thing to do. Just watch, a coach like Tippet or Trotz coaching the Kings can make DL look like a genius!

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11-27-2011, 08:23 PM
  #188
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Are you serious? This is professional hockey not tee-ball . Who cares how Trent Hunter feels, the guy is paid a lot of money to play hockey and contribute to this team winning, and he hasn't done much of it this year.

How can you defend putting a guy with zero goals on a line with our best player, but what can I say, you're also the guy who thinks Ethan Moreau has been a positive for the team this season.

I'm starting to wonder if this may not be someone just having a good laugh with us, some of these posts can't be serious.
Clearly, you're incapable of empathizing. Whether they're professional or not is not relevant. Bottom line is nhl players are people just like tee-ball players. In any case, I wouldn't expect for you to understand as you're all about "what have you done for me lately"?

You don't care whether the effort is there or not, it's all about the results and results only for you.

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11-27-2011, 08:38 PM
  #189
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even though i've bahsed DL for his shortcomings i think it's premature to want his head. He's go this this year and the offseason to land a 1st line winger and a new coach. If he falls flat on his face again he should pack his bags along with TM.

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11-27-2011, 08:38 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
You don't care whether the effort is there or not, it's all about the results and results only for you.
This is sports, you either win or you lose.

I wish Diehard were still around here, he would use his favorite saying right here, and it would be exactly right.

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11-27-2011, 10:31 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
And how did the Kings finish that season?

I hate the selective use of stats to prove some vague point. I don't remember have you advocated firing Lombardi?

You don't think the organization is in a better position now than when Lombardi took over?

You seriously want to compare now to then? Maybe that's why I take everything you post as merely unwarranted pessimism.

Whiskey - that was a very good, thought provoking post.
Let's look at the facts:

I was never a fan of AM's system because I didn't feel that it was flexible enough to let talented players use their creative abilities.

Andy Murray was fired by the Kings on Mar 21, 2006. Their record at the time was 37-28-5 for 79 points in 70 games, or 1.129 points per game.

The current Kings record is 11-8-4, good for 26 points in 23 games, or 1.130 points per game - I guess technically the current Kings are ahead of where the team was with AM at the helm

I think that the organization has more potential than the DT / AM Kings, but a bunch of that potential came as a result of a major collapse for the first couple of years of the DL regime. DL has since traded or given away huge chunks of that potential to try to make the team competitive now - so far unsuccessfully. The Penner trade was an unmitigated disaster, especially considering the assets that ended up be squandered. The Richards trade looks good so far, but it still might come back to bite the team in the a$$ long term. Hunter and Moreau? Could Monarchs scrubs really have done much worse? For all of the potential and high end prospects and HF's top 5 franchises for prospects, why are the 3rd and 4th lines probably the worst in hockey?

Some people deal in hopes, dreams, and potential - I deal in reality. The reality is that this team isn't performing any better than the team did 6 seasons ago in spite of the proclamations to the contrary. They've snuck into the playoffs twice during those 5 seasons and haven't won a single playoff round. At the pace this team is performing, they won't even make the playoffs.

Could they? Should they? Anything less than a 2nd round exit in 7 games should spell the end of the reign of the "smartest man in the room". All of the grandiose charts with boxes and fillers and bridgers, etc. can't hide the FACT that Dean Lombardi has been an NHL GM for 2 different teams for a reasonable amount of time for each team and has NO tangible results. Talk all you will about potential and set up for the future, etc. - the only thing that counts is what you've accomplished, not what you've planned

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11-28-2011, 01:39 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Creativity. We haz none

Adjustments. We no do adjustment. .... Outcoached. Again.

No adjustments, no adaptation of the system. Just same ol stubborn Terry Murray with his same old system that he shoves down the opposing teams throats.
It is very irritating to lose games like the ones to the Hawks and the Stars. Always feels like a kick in the gut. But, like Fox said afterwards, it's on the players. They are going for "perfect" plays, "unbeatable" shots.... they are still playing their instincts rather than the system. Goalie pads are so large these days they probably reduce the net size by a third. Players grow up looking at the spaces around the goalie. No space equals no shot. Nowadays it has to be shot on goal, shot on goal, shot on goal - rebound, score.

Kings players are still not doing that. Pretty hard justice to fire a coach when fans are upset by the style of hockey and the team is still on course for the playoffs. The Kings play exciting hockey when they skate hard and don't let the gaps get big between the D and the forwards. The forwards are leaving the defensive zone earlier and earlier as the game goes on. Not playing the system. Once the forwards started leaving early, the D couldn't make the 5-10 foot north south passes. The D starts to pass east west between themselves and that allows the Hawks to get over aggressive with the forecheck. Again - that's players not playing the system properly.

This team now has to learn how to make adjustments on the fly by giving the opponents different looks on attack. And different looks on D. Something they've only done in a few games this season. The players are under performing now. The players will do much much better in the new year. I'd rather they under performed in this part of the season. And over performed in the Spring.

If the players have tuned TM out - then he'll be gone by New Year. But I don't think that will happen. This team is built to do a lot of damage in the playoffs. Not look flashy in the Fall.

A lot of unhappy fans are going to be surprised about how well this team responds and changes their game going in January. More surprised than I am over the Lombardi hate around here.

Excellent post, Whiskey. I enjoyed that almost as I enjoy your products.

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Old
11-28-2011, 02:08 PM
  #193
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Clearly, you're incapable of empathizing. Whether they're professional or not is not relevant. Bottom line is nhl players are people just like tee-ball players. In any case, I wouldn't expect for you to understand as you're all about "what have you done for me lately"?

You don't care whether the effort is there or not, it's all about the results and results only for you.
Why do you watch sports? Seriously. You care more about feelings than winning and you post all the time so I always have to read your emotional blathering. These guys get paid more than the majority of the fans and they get payed to play hockey. When they are underperforming, they are not doing their job. That's why they get called out. Nobody is calling for their heads when the effort is there, but we're not going to pat EM on the back after what he did in Dallas. All he does is take stupid and selfish penalties. He's putting himself before the team, yet you always defend him. Do you feel bad for people who half ass it in regular jobs as well? Do you feel bad for the fans who pay a lot of money to see the Kings play in person and then have to watch them lose because of a half-assed effort. Surely the emotions of thousands of people should be more important than how EM feels, right?

18,000+ > 1

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Old
11-28-2011, 02:23 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by DocWest View Post
Why do you watch sports? Seriously. You care more about feelings than winning and you post all the time so I always have to read your emotional blathering. These guys get paid more than the majority of the fans and they get payed to play hockey. When they are underperforming, they are not doing their job. That's why they get called out. Nobody is calling for their heads when the effort is there, but we're not going to pat EM on the back after what he did in Dallas. All he does is take stupid and selfish penalties. He's putting himself before the team, yet you always defend him. Do you feel bad for people who half ass it in regular jobs as well? Do you feel bad for the fans who pay a lot of money to see the Kings play in person and then have to watch them lose because of a half-assed effort. Surely the emotions of thousands of people should be more important than how EM feels, right?

18,000+ > 1
Better question is, how do you call yourself a loyal kings fan?

A bandwagon fan, yeah, THAT I can believe but a loyal fan who will support the kings and kings players through thick and thin, that isn't you. If all you do is criticize and complaint when a player or team is doing poorly, how's that a loyal fan?

The trouble with you and guys like you are that you guys don't know what it's like to be patient. In this day and age of fantasy leagues and smartphones, you're use to instant gratification. Well guess what, that's not how real world works, and that isn't how winning teams are built.

And don't worry about guys not producing and making money. It's not your money, don't sweat it!

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11-28-2011, 02:25 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by MN14 View Post
Last act of a desperate man
I don't care if it's the first act of Richard the Second, I just want some results!

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11-28-2011, 02:43 PM
  #196
Herby
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Well guess what, that's not how real world works, and that isn't how winning teams are built.

And don't worry about guys not producing and making money. It's not your money, don't sweat it!

The real world? Team building? Patience?

The real world if you fail to produce results you are done. You open a business and it doesn't make money it closes down, you go to college and you don't pass your tests or go to class, you fail. Yet you sit hear and coddle and make excuses for all the players and management on this team and then have the nerve to tell us we aren't loyal fans or that we are living in a fantasy world, you truly are nuts.

This is the 6th season that Dean Lombardi has been in charge of this team, and we are currently 10th in the West and 25th in goals for (29th in 5 on 5 goals), this a season after finishing 22nd in goals. We have never won a playoff series, we have had two horrendous coaches and we appear to be getting worse not better.

Sorry if some of us don't believe in a 10 year plan, especially when we have seen plenty of teams in this league and other sports leagues be turned around much quicker. Sorry but in this age of early UFA and the salary cap it shouldn't take this long to turn a team around. And you can't even call the Kings turned around because we are on the outside looking in with massive massive massive issues at forward.

Honest question, what do you do if the Kings don't make the playoffs, are you really willing to give Dean year 7 and Terry year 5?

I didn't think at the beginning of the year the Kings were going to miss the playoffs but right now the Kings are not a playoff team. Quick's 3 straight shutouts at the beginning of the year are a boost to our spot in the standings. I just don't see a team that has only 2 consistent offensive performers able to make it to the playoffs. It's just amazing in season 6 we can only field a lineup with 2 consistent top 6 forwards we can count on every night, yet anyone who criticizes this guy is labeled a bandwagon fan by the likes of RH63.

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11-28-2011, 02:49 PM
  #197
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The real world? Team building? Patience?

The real world if you fail to produce results you are done. You open a business and it doesn't make money it closes down, you go to college and you don't pass your tests or go to class, you fail. Yet you sit hear and coddle and make excuses for all the players and management on this team and then have the nerve to tell us we aren't loyal fans or that we are living in a fantasy world, you truly are nuts.

This is the 6th season that Dean Lombardi has been in charge of this team, and we are currently 10th in the West and 25th in goals for (29th in 5 on 5 goals), this a season after finishing 22nd in goals. We have never won a playoff series, we have had two horrendous coaches and we appear to be getting worse not better.

Sorry if some of us don't believe in a 10 year plan, especially when we have seen plenty of teams in this league and other sports leagues be turned around much quicker. Sorry but in this age of early UFA and the salary cap it shouldn't take this long to turn a team around. And you can't even call the Kings turned around because we are on the outside looking in with massive massive massive issues at forward.

Honest question, what do you do if the Kings don't make the playoffs, are you really willing to give Dean year 7 and Terry year 5?

I didn't think at the beginning of the year the Kings were going to miss the playoffs but right now the Kings are not a playoff team. Quick's 3 straight shutouts at the beginning of the year are a boost to our spot in the standings. I just don't see a team that has only 2 consistent offensive performers able to make it to the playoffs. It's just amazing in season 6 we can only field a lineup with 2 consistent top 6 forwards we can count on every night, yet anyone who criticizes this guy is labeled a bandwagon fan by the likes of RH63.

Patience grasshoppa, patience!

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11-28-2011, 03:00 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Let's look at the facts:

I was never a fan of AM's system because I didn't feel that it was flexible enough to let talented players use their creative abilities.

Andy Murray was fired by the Kings on Mar 21, 2006. Their record at the time was 37-28-5 for 79 points in 70 games, or 1.129 points per game.

The current Kings record is 11-8-4, good for 26 points in 23 games, or 1.130 points per game - I guess technically the current Kings are ahead of where the team was with AM at the helm

I think that the organization has more potential than the DT / AM Kings, but a bunch of that potential came as a result of a major collapse for the first couple of years of the DL regime. DL has since traded or given away huge chunks of that potential to try to make the team competitive now - so far unsuccessfully. The Penner trade was an unmitigated disaster, especially considering the assets that ended up be squandered. The Richards trade looks good so far, but it still might come back to bite the team in the a$$ long term. Hunter and Moreau? Could Monarchs scrubs really have done much worse? For all of the potential and high end prospects and HF's top 5 franchises for prospects, why are the 3rd and 4th lines probably the worst in hockey?

Some people deal in hopes, dreams, and potential - I deal in reality. The reality is that this team isn't performing any better than the team did 6 seasons ago in spite of the proclamations to the contrary. They've snuck into the playoffs twice during those 5 seasons and haven't won a single playoff round. At the pace this team is performing, they won't even make the playoffs.

Could they? Should they? Anything less than a 2nd round exit in 7 games should spell the end of the reign of the "smartest man in the room". All of the grandiose charts with boxes and fillers and bridgers, etc. can't hide the FACT that Dean Lombardi has been an NHL GM for 2 different teams for a reasonable amount of time for each team and has NO tangible results. Talk all you will about potential and set up for the future, etc. - the only thing that counts is what you've accomplished, not what you've planned
Depends on the context and I certainly wouldn't pull the trigger just because.

Dean was able to build a good foundation in San Jose and then the owners had money problems which resulted in holdouts and a bad season followed by pretty much nothing else other than Pacific Division titles. I would call that Doug Wilson is getting tangible results with the assets acquired in large part by Lombardi.

I don't think Dean is going anywhere for at least a few more years.

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Old
11-28-2011, 03:01 PM
  #199
Herby
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Patience grasshoppa, patience!
So I assume the answer to the question is yes, you would bring Dean and Terry back for years 7 and 5 even if the Kings miss the playoffs.

Good to know

Insanity -Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

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11-28-2011, 03:03 PM
  #200
KINGS17
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Those who remain will be champions!

Well, not National Champions, eh maybe not Rose Bowl Champions. Aren't those the games that count?

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