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The 2011 AAA Draft Championship Series: Quad City Mallards vs. St. John's Ice Caps

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Old
11-29-2011, 09:04 PM
  #26
Velociraptor
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For first lines, I think it's clear that the Mallards' hold the edge in flat out offense, but the line is very thin defensively, and has nobody to protect their top offensive players in Mike Walton and Wayne Connelly. With the defensive prowess of the Ice Caps, Johnny Sheppard, the only player with any defensive talent, will have to fight his own battles, leaving the two one-dimensional forwards to the gritty Ice Caps to grind out.

Walton and Connelly have proven chemistry, and are definitely a good goal-scoring combo, but I really question the lines' effectiveness as they will constantly have their hands full by the constant forechecking of their rugged opposition. Sheppard just won't be enough, as he was realized as a two-way player, but more of an unspectacular defensive forward, and if anything just adds more offense to the line, something that may be hard to come by for this line.

With the top offensive forward in the series, Jimmy Carson, he is flanked by defensive forwards Armand Mondou and John Anderson, who have been known to be effective at both ends of the ice, and whether it's playing defense against the other team, or generating offense for Carson, they will be relied upon quite a bit in this series.

Advantage: Ice Caps (although the two former Fighting Saints will be a tough group to contain while on the man advantage)

Second lines, a similar mentality for us, throwing a high-octane offensive player with two strong defensive forwards, who will win puck battles and fight off the oppositions defensive players while being key factors in getting the puck to Klima, who is a prominent goal-scorer.

For the Mallards, Yakushev is a strong leader, who is a good two-way player. On his wings is a good complimentary player in Darcy Rota, and a Klima-like player in Gainor, slick, fast and strong offensively. I think both lines matchup well, and will be able to compete with each other offensively and defensively. I see all three players as very similar to each other.

McKechnie - Yakushev
McEachern - Rota
Klima - Gainor

Lines are pretty even, in my opinion.

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11-29-2011, 10:13 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Who accumulated the divisional voting? Can we find out who had the better regular season finish? Just to see who gets home ice advantage to start the series off, for argument's sake
I'm not sure if that's in reference to me saying I had to look up for more now, but if so that's something you should have been encouraging instead of thinking I'm trying to split unnecessary hairs. During Forbes's time the PCHA and WCHL were legitimate leagues and the PCHA particularly had two excellent goalies in Hap Holmles and Hugh Lehman during most of Forbes's career. Considering these leagues with Forbes while difficult really just shows his true value more clearly, and from what judgments I've been attempting to make these additional leagues help us appreciate how good Forbes really was some years. If you're not interested if he beat out Hainsworth, Holmes, or Lehman any years they were out of the NHL that's fine but I don't know why you wouldn't be.

Quote:
Especially where we have come to a conclusion Shatalov is unspectacular offensively.

I also discussed giving Potvin additional PP time last series, but never formally made the announcement to do so. Even though the percentage suggests him and D. Mironov are close when it comes to power play presence, Potvin was much more effective at the power play in his career, having seasons at 91, 88, 87, 84 and 83. But in seasons where he was more noted for his defensive play, he was seldomly used on the power play, but was really a lethal weapon when it came to the man advantage. Whereas Dmitri had good years, but not to the consistency Potvin once held, his best five seasons were 92, 80, 79, 78 and 65.
So is it laughable to bring up Shatalov's lack of offensive prowess or you still considering him on your second PP? I'm not sure why you're confused by me bringing it up and then leave your second PP pointmen unclear.

Quote:
Mondou is not relied on to be the best offensive player on the line, his playmaking finesse and positively remarked two-way ability are his key assets. He is not the strongest offensive player, but he'll be able to create plays while adding strong, gritty play. The reason I selected Mondou over Kaleta was definitely the higher degree of defensive prowess he possessed, which makes him very valuable to the first line and hardly makes him an outcast. His offense isn't spectacular, but he's on the line for the assets that he has been acclaimed to perform well at.
I understand your thought process and Kaleta doesn't fill the role you want for Mondou at all so I'm not knocking the pick or suggesting he's an outcast. I just meant to point out the clear differences between him and Sheppard which we agree on in your breakdown of our first lines.

Quote:
For first lines, I think it's clear that the Mallards' hold the edge in flat out offense, but the line is very thin defensively, and has nobody to protect their top offensive players in Mike Walton and Wayne Connelly. With the defensive prowess of the Ice Caps, Johnny Sheppard, the only player with any defensive talent, will have to fight his own battles, leaving the two one-dimensional forwards to the gritty Ice Caps to grind out.

Walton and Connelly have proven chemistry, and are definitely a good goal-scoring combo, but I really question the lines' effectiveness as they will constantly have their hands full by the constant forechecking of their rugged opposition. Sheppard just won't be enough, as he was realized as a two-way player, but more of an unspectacular defensive forward, and if anything just adds more offense to the line, something that may be hard to come by for this line.

With the top offensive forward in the series, Jimmy Carson, he is flanked by defensive forwards Armand Mondou and John Anderson, who have been known to be effective at both ends of the ice, and whether it's playing defense against the other team, or generating offense for Carson, they will be relied upon quite a bit in this series.

Advantage: Ice Caps (although the two former Fighting Saints will be a tough group to contain while on the man advantage)
I agree with your assessment. Carson leads the way and with two capable two-way players on either side. Anderson didn't have top 10 goal finishes in the NHL like Connelly but he has much better longevity and he and Mondou are the best two-way players on either line by a bit. Ice Caps get the nod here.

Quote:
[Second lines, a similar mentality for us, throwing a high-octane offensive player with two strong defensive forwards, who will win puck battles and fight off the oppositions defensive players while being key factors in getting the puck to Klima, who is a prominent goal-scorer.

For the Mallards, Yakushev is a strong leader, who is a good two-way player. On his wings is a good complimentary player in Darcy Rota, and a Klima-like player in Gainor, slick, fast and strong offensively. I think both lines matchup well, and will be able to compete with each other offensively and defensively. I see all three players as very similar to each other.

McKechnie - Yakushev
McEachern - Rota
Klima - Gainor

Lines are pretty even, in my opinion.
Agreed here we have pretty similar compositions. Hard to compare these two.McKechnie has a good offensive game and with his big frame will be a good asset for his role on St. John's line here. Yakushev has incredible longevity and was an accomplished two-way guy with some high scoring Soviet league finishes.

McEachern and Rota are really similar. Both solid two-way forwards for some time. Rota has the advantage of an all-star game appearance but McEachern was probably better defensively as he killed some penalties which Rota never really did.

Gainor and Klima are two good offensive performers to round out our lines. Klima has the obvious advantage in longevity. I think this matchup is pretty even as well and I'm with you it's difficult to call here.

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Old
11-30-2011, 06:52 AM
  #28
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BBS, that's not meant in reference to that I'm any way at all, I just want to see what team had the better regular season finish to see who receives home ice advantage at the beginning of the series, I'm not underappreciating the extensive research you are doing, I applaud you for it!

Your finds have nothing but impressed me, I encourage it 110%. That really impresses me that Forbes outplayed goaltenders who are given much more credit on an all-time basis, he was definitely prominent and he deserves a lot more recognition than he currently has. That voting comment was not in any way at all directed towards the work you've put into your debate so far, I'm not trying to discourage it at all, just to see who gets last change in the final.

Not confused at all, I'm saying my deciding reason for placing Potvin on the second power play unit, we've discovered Shatalov is a more predominantly defensive defenseman and all we know about him offensively is that he was very quick and was a good passer. That's not good enough to have him on our second unit.

Essentially what I'm trying to get at is, I know Mondou isn't the most proficient offensive player I could have on that line, he's just a perfect fit for what assets already are demonstrated on the line. I don't accuse you of bashing the pick whatsoever, just trying to prove his effectiveness.

Anderson definitely isn't the goal-scoring winner Connelly is, he's inferior offensively, but he's a strong two-way player. Connelly is more like Carson in a way.

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11-30-2011, 10:50 AM
  #29
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I would take Anderson over Connelly as a goal scorer, myself. Connelly's main achievement was the 1968 season where he racked up goals mostly against expansion opponents due to the imbalanced schedule. He wasn't as good as he ranked that season.

Anderson's two-way play is being thrown around as a positive way too much, though, isn't it?

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Old
11-30-2011, 03:53 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Connelly's main achievement was the 1968 season where he racked up goals mostly against expansion opponents due to the imbalanced schedule. He wasn't as good as he ranked that season.
1. He was top scorer on an expansion NHL team. He outscored several ATDers on his NHL team that season, like Balon, Goldsworthy, Parise and even seventieslord's ATD draftee Boudrias. Yeah, his divisional player of the year award may not mean much given it was an expansion division, but at the AAA level, no one is claiming he was ever top-5 in the world.

2. He did record an impressive 1167 shots in the NHL over the 5-year NHL stretch, twice exeeding 250 shots per NHL season. He was a prolific shooter who demonstrated his ability in the NHL and the WHA, showing that with some open ice he is an offensive threat. At the AAA Draft level he is a quality top-6 winger and it may take a defensive-minded, close checking 1930s type physical or 1990s type clutch and grab club to neutralize his offensive ability.

3. After his NHL years, he jumped for huge money to the WHA and led the Minnesota franchise with 40 goals in 1972-73, following that up with a 42 goal season the next year as a 34 year old! The guy had talent. He may not have been as good as suggested by a bald statistic (4th in NHL goals, 5th and 9th in WHA goals) but he certainly was an impact player for several years. Some discounting for expansion NHL and rival league WHA is warranted in terms of peak accomplishment significance, but his career and talent level is pretty good for this draft, and he ought to get plenty of shots and some goals against that St. John's squad.

4. It's the playoffs. Let's look at his playoff performances. In the 1968 postseason:

Quote:
NHL playoff Goal leaders:

1. Wayne Connelly-MNS 8
Bill Goldsworthy-MNS 8
3. Dickie Moore-STL 7
Jacques Lemaire-MTL 7
Jean Beliveau-MTL 7
7. Yvan Cournoyer-MTL 6
8. Red Berenson-STL 5
Rod Gilbert-NYR 5
Stan Mikita-CBH 5
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...8_leaders.html

Yeah, it was against expansion teams, interestingly against a couple of history's greatest goaltenders at the twilight of their careers: Sawchuk in net in L.A and Hall in net in St. Louis that postseason.

In 1975, King Brodeur stopped Connelly's team in the WHA semi-finals.

5. Connelly had 8 goals that 1975 postseason too, second to teammate Walton. The chemistry of a real-life duo in Mike Walton-Wayne Connelly on the AAA Quad City squad ought to be considered a plus in terms of line chemistry. They combined for 18 goals in 12 playoff games one postseason, 16 goals in 11 games the postseason before that, on a team where only one other player even had 5 goals either of those playoff runs!

6. He had not only a prolific shot but a hard shot! Here he breaks glass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhY17YCv1sE

Quote:
a winger with a wicked slap shot
http://milkeespress.com/risingnorthstars.html

7. The more you look at him, the more Connelly looks like a quality go-to guy on a team playing on more wide open ice. This is not the ATD or MLD, it's the AAA, and he ought to be an impact player in the series.

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11-30-2011, 03:54 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Hart Voting:

Jake Forbes:
1923-24: 7th
1924-25: T-9th

Mike Palmateer:
1978-79: 5th

Palmateer has the higher placing, but Forbes was recognized more than once for being very valuable to his team.

Games played:

Forbes:
1922-23 NHL 24 (1)
1923-24 NHL 24 (1)
1924-25 NHL 30 (1)
1925-26 NHL 36 (1)
1926-27 NHL 44 (1)

Palmateer:
1976-77 NHL 50 (8)
1977-78 NHL 63 (4)
1978-79 NHL 58 (3)
1980-81 NHL 49 (9)
1982-83 NHL 53 (7)

wins:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 13 (2)
1924-25 NHL 19 (1)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 34 (3)
1978-79 NHL 26 (3)

goals against average:

JF:
1920-21 NHL 3.83 (2)
1923-24 NHL 2.75 (3)
1924-25 NHL 1.96 (2)

MP:
1977-78 NHL 2.74 (9)
1978-79 NHL 2.95 (6)

shutouts:

JF:
1923-24 NHL 1 (3)
1924-25 NHL 6 (2)
1925-26 NHL 2 (5)
1926-27 NHL 8 (5)
Career NHL 19 (93)

MP:
1976-77 NHL 4 (5)
1977-78 NHL 5 (2)
1978-79 NHL 4 (2)
1979-80 NHL 2 (7)
1980-81 NHL 2 (3)
Since nobody else pointed it out, I will. From 1919-20 until 1923-24, there were only 4 teams in the NHL. In 1924-25, there were 6. In 1925-26, there were 7.

Starting in 1926-27 (the first year after the last Western league folded and all the talent was consolidated in the NHL), there were 10 teams in the NHL. So judge Forbes' stats accordingly. Is having the 3rd best GAA in a 4 team league impressive?

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11-30-2011, 05:34 PM
  #32
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I've been trying to gauge who I think has goaltending advantage, and I think I'm going with Palmateer by the slightest of margins. He at least has had a modicum of playoff success in his first two playoff series, and I don't think he was terrible in 1978-79 playoffs (solid against Atlanta, gave up a ton of goals against the Canadiens but that's not exactly saying much with the way they rolled through everyone who wasn't the Bruins). 1979-1980 he was told before the playoffs he wouldn't be brought back to the Leafs next season, only played the 2nd game of the series against the North Stars and gave up 7 goals, and wasn't brought back for game 3.

Forbes just has no sort of postseason experience at all, losing his only two postseason games ever against the Nighbor, Denneny, Darragh Senators with Benedict shutting out the St Pats. So that really means absolutely nothing.

I've just found nothing to be particularly impressed with Forbes about outside of one season. In a 4 team NHL, I'm not impressed with a T-7th in Hart voting when he wasn't the highest vote getter on his team (Burch was 5th) and another on his team finished 8th. I'm more impressed with the 9th place finish he had in the Hart in 1925 when he was probably the 2nd team All-Star goalie for that season (2nd highest goalie in the Hart voting, no one else in the top 14). Is that enough to push him over Palmateer? I have no idea. So I think I'm going to go with the guy who has a proven decent playoff record, just slightly, not enough to make a major difference in the series though.

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11-30-2011, 05:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I've been trying to gauge who I think has goaltending advantage, and I think I'm going with Palmateer by the slightest of margins. He at least has had a modicum of playoff success in his first two playoff series,...
Huh? If the starter is so lukewarm in terms of playoff success then look at the backups!! Hockey history is littered with examples of backups stepping in in the postseason.

Andy Aitkenhead (1933)
vs.
Frank McCool (1945)

A 28 year old Aitkenhead led the New York Rangers to the 1933 Stanley Cup championship in his NHL "rookie" season with "brilliant" play and a couple of shutouts. He had won games in the Memorial Cup and Allan Cup by age 19. He'll see some playoff ice time if Palmateer is found at all wanting.



As for McCool, he also won a game in the Memorial Cup and Allan Cup, he also won the Stanley Cup as an NHL rookie. These two backups are bloody mirror images of each other career-value wise come the playoffs! So I guess backups don't actually decide any edge in this series!


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11-30-2011, 07:56 PM
  #34
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It's not exactly our call though to say if/when a guy will be stepping in VanI, that's on the managers of these two squads to let us know if the goalie will have a quick hook, if he'll bet given a long leash, etc...

However yeah I agree that these two backups might as well be completely even.

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11-30-2011, 08:08 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I would take Anderson over Connelly as a goal scorer, myself. Connelly's main achievement was the 1968 season where he racked up goals mostly against expansion opponents due to the imbalanced schedule. He wasn't as good as he ranked that season.

Anderson's two-way play is being thrown around as a positive way too much, though, isn't it?
Anderson is an above average defensive player, he's by no means a physical pivot, but he was able to hit, win battles and play a solid defensive game of hockey. And probably the most accomplished defensive players out of the six top line players in the series, I don't know if Mondou is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since nobody else pointed it out, I will. From 1919-20 until 1923-24, there were only 4 teams in the NHL. In 1924-25, there were 6. In 1925-26, there were 7.

Starting in 1926-27 (the first year after the last Western league folded and all the talent was consolidated in the NHL), there were 10 teams in the NHL. So judge Forbes' stats accordingly. Is having the 3rd best GAA in a 4 team league impressive?
He was beaten out by two legendary goaltenders (Vezina and Benedict) in that same year he beat out John Ross Roach in that year, where all four of the goaltenders were fairly prominent. I don't know how the NHL was viewed in comparison to the PCHA and WCHL, but Forbes played very well compared to his contemporaries. Also, as BBS stated, he beat out Hainsworth, Holmes and Lehman in some years, which is very impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I've been trying to gauge who I think has goaltending advantage, and I think I'm going with Palmateer by the slightest of margins. He at least has had a modicum of playoff success in his first two playoff series, and I don't think he was terrible in 1978-79 playoffs (solid against Atlanta, gave up a ton of goals against the Canadiens but that's not exactly saying much with the way they rolled through everyone who wasn't the Bruins). 1979-1980 he was told before the playoffs he wouldn't be brought back to the Leafs next season, only played the 2nd game of the series against the North Stars and gave up 7 goals, and wasn't brought back for game 3.

Forbes just has no sort of postseason experience at all, losing his only two postseason games ever against the Nighbor, Denneny, Darragh Senators with Benedict shutting out the St Pats. So that really means absolutely nothing.

I've just found nothing to be particularly impressed with Forbes about outside of one season. In a 4 team NHL, I'm not impressed with a T-7th in Hart voting when he wasn't the highest vote getter on his team (Burch was 5th) and another on his team finished 8th. I'm more impressed with the 9th place finish he had in the Hart in 1925 when he was probably the 2nd team All-Star goalie for that season (2nd highest goalie in the Hart voting, no one else in the top 14). Is that enough to push him over Palmateer? I have no idea. So I think I'm going to go with the guy who has a proven decent playoff record, just slightly, not enough to make a major difference in the series though.
Very fair statement, the goaltending matchup is very equal, and definitely won't make a difference. I don't know if either goaltender is capable of stealing a game, but if one is, the other one sure is as well.

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11-30-2011, 09:11 PM
  #36
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Third Lines: The Ice Caps take a classic shutdown approach with three strong defensive players. Curtis Brown and Ric Seiling have received Selke recognition during their careers. Larry Popein, a defensive-minded centre is flanked by Alex "Killer" Kaleta, a more offensive-minded winger, with proven two-way ability and David Backes, who has very similar qualities to Kaleta. While both wingers are stronger offensive players, than defensive players. The line is a strong energy line that will chip in offense, but how they match up against the Ice Caps' top lines? I don't think the two-way ability on this line is strong enough to compete with what the opposition will have to match up with, the line will no doubt be able to be somewhat efficient offensively, but I don't necessarily see it as a huge threat to our top scoring lines, especially where the defensive ability will be matched or outperformed.

Fourth Lines: I like Smail a lot, he's a guy I wish I had the opportunity to take over Dennis Ververgaert. He's a strong defensive left wing who was also decent offensively. Savard was a checking line forward who showed flashes of offensive excellence, albeit inconsistent, he is a good two-way player. I don't know much about Couture, he had some good goal-scoring seasons and size, but is there anything on him having intangbiles? If not, he's able to chip in a few goals, but his seldom ice time will limit him. I think Derlago is a better fourth line centre than Andre Savard, he has more intangibles, as well as a better offensive peak. McCreary brings leadership, toughness and hard-work to the line, throughout his career he was a steady two-way player. Floyd Smith was an unspectacular two-way player, but he was serviceable at both ends of the ice, and could use Derlago to his advantage offensively. Fourth lines are pretty similar for both teams as well, I'll give Derlago a definite edge over Savard, Smail over McCreary and until I find out if Couture has anything else to bring to the table, Floyd Smith is much more suited for fourth line duty.

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11-30-2011, 10:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I've been trying to gauge who I think has goaltending advantage, and I think I'm going with Palmateer by the slightest of margins. He at least has had a modicum of playoff success in his first two playoff series, and I don't think he was terrible in 1978-79 playoffs (solid against Atlanta, gave up a ton of goals against the Canadiens but that's not exactly saying much with the way they rolled through everyone who wasn't the Bruins). 1979-1980 he was told before the playoffs he wouldn't be brought back to the Leafs next season, only played the 2nd game of the series against the North Stars and gave up 7 goals, and wasn't brought back for game 3.

Forbes just has no sort of postseason experience at all, losing his only two postseason games ever against the Nighbor, Denneny, Darragh Senators with Benedict shutting out the St Pats. So that really means absolutely nothing.

I've just found nothing to be particularly impressed with Forbes about outside of one season. In a 4 team NHL, I'm not impressed with a T-7th in Hart voting when he wasn't the highest vote getter on his team (Burch was 5th) and another on his team finished 8th. I'm more impressed with the 9th place finish he had in the Hart in 1925 when he was probably the 2nd team All-Star goalie for that season (2nd highest goalie in the Hart voting, no one else in the top 14). Is that enough to push him over Palmateer? I have no idea. So I think I'm going to go with the guy who has a proven decent playoff record, just slightly, not enough to make a major difference in the series though.
This is sorta where I'm at after trying to take it all in on Forbes. It's a shame he received more Hart votes in '24 than '25 because
the former year was pretty unspectacular whereas '25 was the best year of his career. You did a good job of mentioning his teammates receiving votes and for the voting during this inaugural year voters were asked to rank the 8 players judged most valuable for their team. Isn't it fair to say those results are just telling Forbes was arguably the second best player on Hamilton, part of a 4 team league that year? I don't think this finish is nearly as meaningful as the one he had next year.


Here's what I what I found to come to these judgments:

1923-24 Season
Hamilton 9-15, 63(64)GF 68(64)GA (league average)

NHL
Georges Vezina 13-11 1.97GAA 3SO
Clint Benedict 15-7 1.99GAA 3SO
Jake Forbes 9-15 2.75GAA 1 SO
John Ross Roach 10-13 3.48GAA 1 SO
(2.67GAA) taken by dividing average goals allowed that year by GP just to give an idea what scoring in each league looked like that year
3/4 ranking within NHL

PCHA
Hugh Lehman: 30GP 2.7GAA 1 SO 1st AST
Hap Holmes: 30GP 3.3GAA 2 SO
Hec Fowler: 30GP 3.4GAA
(3.13GAA)

WCHL
Red McCusker: 30GP 17-11-2 2.17GAA 4 SO REG 1st AST
George Hainsworth: 30GP 15-12-3 2.37GAA 4 SO
Charlie Reid: 30GP 18-11-1 2.35GAA 1 SO CGY
Hal Winkler: 26GP 9-13-4 2.54GAA 2 SO
(2.44 GAA)

It's so hard to compare across leagues but is it safe to suggest Forbes's season was worse than Lehman's PCHA 1st AST finish,
and McCusker's career best finish in the WCHL. If we concede the second place finishers in each of these leagues was worse that still drops Forbes to 5/1th in all of professional hockey that year.

1924-25
T9th (28) Hart
Hamilton 19-10-1 90(75)GF 60(75)GA

NHL
MTL Georges Vezina 30GP 17-11-2 1.81 GAA 5SO
HAM Jake Forbes 30GP 19-10-1 1.96GAA 6 SO
OTS Alec Connell 30GP 17-12-1 2.14GAA 7 SO
MTM Clint Benedict 30GP 9-19-2 2.12GAA 2 SO
TRS John Ross Roach 30GP 19-11-0 2.8GAA 1 SO
BOS Charles Stewart 21GP 5-16-0 3.08GAA 2 SO)
(2.5GAA)
2/6

WCHL
Holmes: 28GP 2.3GAA 3 SO VIC 1st AST
Hainsworth 28GP 2.7GAA 2 SO SAS
Lehman: 11GP 2.7GAA 0 SO VAN
Winkler: 28GP 2.9GAA 2 SO CGY
Fowler: 8GP 3.6GAA 1 SO EDM
McCusker: 28GP 4.4GAA 0 SO REG
Reid: 17GP 4.4GAA 1 SO VAN
Stuart: 17GP 4.0GAA 1 SO EDM
(3.27GAA)
3/12
Holmes led Victoria to a SC that year

This is definitely Forbes's best year beating out Connell and Benedict, not to mention Roach again. He'd probably have been a 2nd AST and was a worthy top 10 Hart finisher.

His two years in the Americans posted great numbers but they didn't beat out many of his fellow goalies who also had stingy numbers. He did beat John Ross Roach both years, and 4 times overall, finishing 5/7th in '26. In '27 he finished 6th/10 teams out beating Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman who were on their last legs at 38 and 41 and a rookie Roy Worters along with Roach.

He was better than just one good year and beat Roach a few times even aside from his two-Hart seasons so he's definitely a good goalie. I think I'd have to know more about how good Palmateer was during that Hart year and other AST vote-getting years to fully know how they stack up here though.


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11-30-2011, 10:21 PM
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Anderson is an above average defensive player, he's by no means a physical pivot, but he was able to hit, win battles and play a solid defensive game of hockey. And probably the most accomplished defensive players out of the six top line players in the series,
Where are you getting this from?

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11-30-2011, 10:31 PM
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1. He was top scorer on an expansion NHL team. He outscored several ATDers on his NHL team that season, like Balon, Goldsworthy, Parise and even seventieslord's ATD draftee Boudrias. Yeah, his divisional player of the year award may not mean much given it was an expansion division, but at the AAA level, no one is claiming he was ever top-5 in the world.

2. He did record an impressive 1167 shots in the NHL over the 5-year NHL stretch, twice exeeding 250 shots per NHL season. He was a prolific shooter who demonstrated his ability in the NHL and the WHA, showing that with some open ice he is an offensive threat. At the AAA Draft level he is a quality top-6 winger and it may take a defensive-minded, close checking 1930s type physical or 1990s type clutch and grab club to neutralize his offensive ability.

3. After his NHL years, he jumped for huge money to the WHA and led the Minnesota franchise with 40 goals in 1972-73, following that up with a 42 goal season the next year as a 34 year old! The guy had talent. He may not have been as good as suggested by a bald statistic (4th in NHL goals, 5th and 9th in WHA goals) but he certainly was an impact player for several years. Some discounting for expansion NHL and rival league WHA is warranted in terms of peak accomplishment significance, but his career and talent level is pretty good for this draft, and he ought to get plenty of shots and some goals against that St. John's squad.

4. It's the playoffs. Let's look at his playoff performances. In the 1968 postseason:


http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...8_leaders.html

Yeah, it was against expansion teams, interestingly against a couple of history's greatest goaltenders at the twilight of their careers: Sawchuk in net in L.A and Hall in net in St. Louis that postseason.

In 1975, King Brodeur stopped Connelly's team in the WHA semi-finals.

5. Connelly had 8 goals that 1975 postseason too, second to teammate Walton. The chemistry of a real-life duo in Mike Walton-Wayne Connelly on the AAA Quad City squad ought to be considered a plus in terms of line chemistry. They combined for 18 goals in 12 playoff games one postseason, 16 goals in 11 games the postseason before that, on a team where only one other player even had 5 goals either of those playoff runs!

6. He had not only a prolific shot but a hard shot! Here he breaks glass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhY17YCv1sE


http://milkeespress.com/risingnorthstars.html

7. The more you look at him, the more Connelly looks like a quality go-to guy on a team playing on more wide open ice. This is not the ATD or MLD, it's the AAA, and he ought to be an impact player in the series.
First of all, if you have to use shot totals to make a case, you are really reaching.

Second, there is more to offense than goals. Connelly was a pretty good goal scorer but absolutely unimpressive as a point producer (59 and 56 point seasons at the NHL level).

I said Anderson was a better goal scorer and that is true. Pretend Connelly's WHA years are just as important as the NHL, and he still had 300 goals in 909 games. Anderson games. Anderson had 18 fewer in 100 fewer games. He also had the same point totals in fewer games, without the benefit of the WHA stat padding. I wasn't necessarily saying Connelly can't be a top-6 contributor here, but Anderson is definitely the better player.

You are quoting some stats and rankings to make his case, which is fine, but that has to be done in comparison to other top-6 wingers in this draft for it to be meaningful. Judging by the guys I have had the opportunuity to objectively compare his output to during this draft, he looks like a legitimate, though below average, top-6 winger.

Yes, you have two important points - he did post better stats in the playoffs, and he did have chemistry with Walton. (on the other hand, boy, did Walton ever outscore him)

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12-01-2011, 06:57 AM
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First of all, if you have to use shot totals to make a case, you are really reaching.
I'm just pointing out that he is a prolific shooter, should at least make an impact by putting a lot of rubber on net for rebounds and defensive face-offs if nothing else. I wasn't trying to lay the foundation of any "case" on that stat (I leave stat-as-foundation arguments to, well, not me).

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Second, there is more to offense than goals. Connelly was a pretty good goal scorer but absolutely unimpressive as a point producer (59 and 56 point seasons at the NHL level).
True. No one is claiming he is anything but a shooting winger who has had three decent goal scoring seasons.

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I said Anderson was a better goal scorer and that is true. Pretend Connelly's WHA years are just as important as the NHL, and he still had 300 goals in 909 games. Anderson games. Anderson had 18 fewer in 100 fewer games. He also had the same point totals in fewer games, without the benefit of the WHA stat padding. I wasn't necessarily saying Connelly can't be a top-6 contributor here, but Anderson is definitely the better player.
So you are basing your entire case on a career goals per game stat??! I'd never do that, but then again you and I reason very differently and always have, not just in judgements but in style.

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You are quoting some stats and rankings to make his case, which is fine, but that has to be done in comparison to other top-6 wingers in this draft for it to be meaningful. Judging by the guys I have had the opportunuity to objectively compare his output to during this draft, he looks like a legitimate, though below average, top-6 winger.
Do we take your word for it? Or is there some top-6 winger analysis post I don't know about? Your statement here makes me pause. I dunno what to make of it. I agree that he should at least be compared to other top-6 wingers in this series. there's time to do that this weekend.

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Yes, you have two important points - he did post better stats in the playoffs, and he did have chemistry with Walton. (on the other hand, boy, did Walton ever outscore him)
Walton had 10 goals to Connelly's 6 in the '74 playoffs;
Walton had 10 goals to Connelly's 8 in the '75 playoffs;
those are the two significant WHA playoffs they were together as a duo in, 1st and 2nd in team goals both seasons for the two of them, as I pointed out in my previous post.

I believe a picture of a player's worth comes from a look at several different factors like demonstrated special skills (hard shooting), peak (three significant playoffs) and career (goals per game stat being one factor among others).

It's really irksome to see hard and fast, cut and dried judgements based on some statistic claimed as objective determinant just because it's a number. I was not making some argument about the superiority of Connelly over Anderson (I never even mentioned Anderson), I just added some analysis and info that paints a picture of a player, useful to the discussion. I have no dog in this race, but I do appreciate Connelly more than some do apparently.

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12-01-2011, 11:08 AM
  #41
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Where are you getting this from?
The bio you created for him!

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12-01-2011, 03:52 PM
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Third Lines: The Ice Caps take a classic shutdown approach with three strong defensive players. Curtis Brown and Ric Seiling have received Selke recognition during their careers. Larry Popein, a defensive-minded centre is flanked by Alex "Killer" Kaleta, a more offensive-minded winger, with proven two-way ability and David Backes, who has very similar qualities to Kaleta. While both wingers are stronger offensive players, than defensive players. The line is a strong energy line that will chip in offense, but how they match up against the Ice Caps' top lines? I don't think the two-way ability on this line is strong enough to compete with what the opposition will have to match up with, the line will no doubt be able to be somewhat efficient offensively, but I don't necessarily see it as a huge threat to our top scoring lines, especially where the defensive ability will be matched or outperformed.
Brown, Legwand, and Seiling have the best Selke records but Backes has the second highest Selke finish after Brown's 5th place finish. He doesn't have the years played to rack up as many years of receiving a few votes but he's definitely not out of their class defensively. Popein's pre-Selke but I think he's also in their league defensively, it wasn't his scoring that put him with Andy Bathgate in NY. I think you definitely have the better shutdown line here though. There's no question Kaleta's placement here makes him the weakest defensive player on either third line, but he's also the strongest offensive player with Legwand and Backes just behind. Backes's adjusted ESP per season is the highest and I'm sure if I calculated the top finishes of your 3rd liners it wouldn't rival Kaleta's offensive peak. You have three good checking players and your line would be more effective purely checking than my own, but I think my players are still defensively strong themselves and have the edge offensively.

I'll also have to disagree wholly that either of your scoring lines will match or outperform this line defensively. Anderson, McEachern, and Mckenchie are solid two-way and defensive players relative to their roles, not stalwarts that rival a checking line's defensive game. I'll give you Mondou as possibly as good a checker, but then again I'd argue his scoring would have him in competition with Popein, not Kaleta or Backes. Either way Mondou's presence and Anderson's decent two-way game wouldn't put this line even or above my third line defensively. The same pattern occurs with your second line, these players have solid two-way ability, save Klima, but it's not Selke-caliber or really close to either of our bottom sixes defensive capabilities. This line was defensively sound enough to get this far and it just kicked Couture down for Backes who has a clear record of defensive play and a physical game.

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Fourth Lines: I like Smail a lot, he's a guy I wish I had the opportunity to take over Dennis Ververgaert. He's a strong defensive left wing who was also decent offensively. Savard was a checking line forward who showed flashes of offensive excellence, albeit inconsistent, he is a good two-way player. I don't know much about Couture, he had some good goal-scoring seasons and size, but is there anything on him having intangbiles? If not, he's able to chip in a few goals, but his seldom ice time will limit him. I think Derlago is a better fourth line centre than Andre Savard, he has more intangibles, as well as a better offensive peak. McCreary brings leadership, toughness and hard-work to the line, throughout his career he was a steady two-way player.
I thought Savard against Derlago was actually the most favorable matchup for me here defensively. Sure Derlago killed some Penalties and played defensively but it seems like he did that more as a result of his failure to carry over his junior scoring to the big leagues. Savard had 4 Selke pts in only one year but he was a consistent checker throughout his career and I think hes definitely better defensively here. I see Derlago as the Kaleta of this line to be honest with you. Savard on the other hand was a hard-working guy who came by his points very honestly. When you said he has better intangibles did you mean Savard or Derlago? I thought you meant Derlago at first but with how it's worded I'm a bit confused.

Smail and McCreary are the two best defensive wingers here. Smail has some Selke and one ASG, McCreary's pre-Selke and didn't make an ASG. McCreary probably has the better intangibles here being the leader he was but I like Smail in this matchup. He was just as renowned defensively and better offensively so I agree he's ahead of McCreary, who is still a good two-way guy and was a leader during his career.

Quote:
Floyd Smith was an unspectacular two-way player, but he was serviceable at both ends of the ice, and could use Derlago to his advantage offensively. Fourth lines are pretty similar for both teams as well, I'll give Derlago a definite edge over Savard, Smail over McCreary and until I find out if Couture has anything else to bring to the table, Floyd Smith is much more suited for fourth line duty.

Couture doesn't have a lot of info about him so its fair Smith is more suited for the role here. I disagree again though about Savard and Derlago. Savard's better defensively and his offense is pretty good for playing a checking role through most of his career. Smail also has the slight edge on McCreary but Couture's a bit of a question mark without much known about his defensive game. I like my line a bit better here but I agree they're close.

As far as the ES production of our post-expansion guys:

Adjusted ES Points per season
Backes: 47 (364GP)
Legwand: 45 (768GP)
Savard: 40 (790GP)
Derlago: 37 (555GP)
Smail: 35 (845GP)
Brown: 33 (736GP)
McCreary: 32 (523GP)
Seiling: 31 (738GP)


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12-01-2011, 04:58 PM
  #43
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I don't know if it matters, but as you're all aware, Bruce Boudreau was named head coach of the Anaheim Ducks early this morning.

Him being out of an NHL head coaching position for three days really shows that he's a very respected coach in the league, enough that a reeling team thinks a potential answer is replacing their coach with Boudreau. I don't think he is given the credit he deserves.

I'm definitely convinced that my four lines could contend defensively with your third line, I see Popein and Backes as pretty strong defensive players, and Kaleta as an average one. The players with two-way ability definitely won't falter from the abuse of the Mallards' third line, and I think they can definitely contend with the line.

I meant I believe Derlago has more intangibles than Savard, he's an acclaimed penalty killer, faceoff ace, defensive player and offensively capable, Savard may be better defensively, but Derlago has the same edge offensively that Savard has defensively. Derlago was still looked at as a solid defensive player, but you're right in saying Savard holds an edge, Derlago was a fine penalty killer as well.

Your fourth line does have two strong, proven two-way guys. But I just don't see Couture being a factor on the fourth line, all that's known about him is goal scoring prowess, his penalty minutes are also not flattering at all, it maybe suggests he was softer than average. He almost serves as a non-factor because he won't see much time at even strength I'd imagine, and he will get very limited scoring chances on a fourth line. I just think my line possesses more intangibles than yours, and that's what it could come down to in the comparison.

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12-01-2011, 08:02 PM
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I don't know if it matters, but as you're all aware, Bruce Boudreau was named head coach of the Anaheim Ducks early this morning.

Him being out of an NHL head coaching position for three days really shows that he's a very respected coach in the league, enough that a reeling team thinks a potential answer is replacing their coach with Boudreau. I don't think he is given the credit he deserves.

I'm definitely convinced that my four lines could contend defensively with your third line, I see Popein and Backes as pretty strong defensive players, and Kaleta as an average one. The players with two-way ability definitely won't falter from the abuse of the Mallards' third line, and I think they can definitely contend with the line.

I meant I believe Derlago has more intangibles than Savard, he's an acclaimed penalty killer, faceoff ace, defensive player and offensively capable, Savard may be better defensively, but Derlago has the same edge offensively that Savard has defensively. Derlago was still looked at as a solid defensive player, but you're right in saying Savard holds an edge, Derlago was a fine penalty killer as well.

Your fourth line does have two strong, proven two-way guys. But I just don't see Couture being a factor on the fourth line, all that's known about him is goal scoring prowess, his penalty minutes are also not flattering at all, it maybe suggests he was softer than average. He almost serves as a non-factor because he won't see much time at even strength I'd imagine, and he will get very limited scoring chances on a fourth line. I just think my line possesses more intangibles than yours, and that's what it could come down to in the comparison.
Or it could mean Boudreau was simply the best of the unemployed coaches for a team desperate for a coaching change. Which isn't saying much.

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12-01-2011, 09:27 PM
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Or it could mean Boudreau was simply the best of the unemployed coaches for a team desperate for a coaching change. Which isn't saying much.
It's his last shot. Good luck!

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12-01-2011, 09:55 PM
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I'm just pointing out that he is a prolific shooter, should at least make an impact by putting a lot of rubber on net for rebounds and defensive face-offs if nothing else. I wasn't trying to lay the foundation of any "case" on that stat (I leave stat-as-foundation arguments to, well, not me).
That is an interesting anomaly that he had the 12th-most shots over a 5-year period (though the 31st-most goals and 33rd-most points), but that is about the best I will say about that.

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So you are basing your entire case on a career goals per game stat??! I'd never do that, but then again you and I reason very differently and always have, not just in judgements but in style.
No, points are worth more than just goals but I thought I would point out that Anderson is better than Connelly at what he does best. Yes, it is fair to look at career goals per game as a roughhand here particularly because it gives Connelly an advantage by including the WHA years at par value.

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Do we take your word for it? Or is there some top-6 winger analysis post I don't know about? Your statement here makes me pause. I dunno what to make of it. I agree that he should at least be compared to other top-6 wingers in this series. there's time to do that this weekend.
I can do that if you like. I've looked at my own guys and Quad City's other guys, to begin with. Obviously when scouting I was looking at the offensive records of the wingers I was after as well. Connelly was on my list when he was taken, but not very high.

I think that the percentage method would do a good job at least for comparing Connelly to the other post-expansion NHL/WHA wingers out there: Sturm, Hemsky, Ysebaert, Czerkawski, Hogue, Anderson, McEachern, Klima, King, Osborne, O'Neill, Daze, Mullen, Hunter, Audette, Rota, Prospal, Semin, Murphy, Fox, and MacDonald.

I can tell you he's not as good as O'Neill, Prospal or Anderson, and that he is better than Rota (per previous comparisons)

Connelly's best 6 percentage seasons are: 76, 74, 67, 49, 47, 42. This accounts for his WHA years by using a 0.67 exchange rate, but it doesn't account for playing in the expansion division. I won't attempt an adjustment for that.

Here are the others. Top 5 percentage seasons.

Sturm: 53, 48, 47, 46, 46, 39 (clearly not as good)
Hemsky: 67, 63, 60, 46, 42, 39 (again, not as good, similar per-game)
Ysebaert: 70, 44, 44, 40, 35, 31 (clearly not as good)
Czerkawski: 74, 65, 57, 56, 47, 37 (intriguing peak but not as good)
Hogue: 71, 62, 56, 53, 43, 41 (not as good)
McEachern: 75, 63, 54, 53, 52, 51 (nice consistency but I'd take Connelly)
Klima: 59, 51, 50, 50, 49, 46 (remarkably low production given his supposed skill)
King: 73, 63, 60, 54, 51, 49 (not as good though close)
Osborne: 57, 50, 48, 45, 43, 42 (not as good)
Daze: 78, 59, 46, 46, 42, 41 (too bad about the injuries, but not as good)
Mullen: 58, 56, 54, 54, 52, 51 (nice consistency but I'd take Connelly)
Hunter: 40, 34, 30, 29, 29, 27 (this guy was a top-6 winger???)
Audette: 82, 53, 53, 51, 48, 46 (nice top season but no)
Semin: 77, 72, 64, 55, 40, 25 (has matched the peak, needs some longevity)
Murphy: 77, 63, 59, 54, 45, 45 (not as good)
Fox: 66, 61, 58, 56, 49, 42 (not quite)
MacDonald: 95, 75, 61, 54, 50, 26 (we have a winner!)

I stand corrected. Out of 22 post-expansion NHL/WHA wingers, Connelly has an offensive record more impressive than 17 of them.

There are 18 other top-6 wingers in the draft. Based on prior comparisons/scouting I would be confident putting Svetlov, Benoit, Brydson, Robinson & Mallen ahead of him. Completely ignoring defense and other considerations, Connelly appears to have roughly the 10th-best offensive resume of the 40 top-6 wingers here. Provided you don't dock him for excelling in the far worse division in an imbalanced league.

I take solace in the fact that it doesn't discredit what I said before: that I prefer Anderson as a player, and that Connelly's not as good as his 1968 goals ranking makes him appear. However, I BADLY overestimated the crowd of scoring wingers this draft yielded. They are not impressive. Connelly does look very good by comparison.

Quote:
Walton had 10 goals to Connelly's 6 in the '74 playoffs;
Walton had 10 goals to Connelly's 8 in the '75 playoffs;
those are the two significant WHA playoffs they were together as a duo in, 1st and 2nd in team goals both seasons for the two of them, as I pointed out in my previous post.
I was referring to regular season point totals, a bit of a wider measure in determining their output.

Walton was clearly the catalyst of the line, but having said that, so were Vaive, LeCavalier, and Francis in some of the best seasons that the superior wingers had, so I admit that's a moot point. Connelly is hardly unique or culpable in this regard.

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12-01-2011, 10:29 PM
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The bio you created for him!
ahh, I see what happened. I checked out my old bio and you're doing a little bit of extrapolation. Anderson had an 11-season career and was "sometimes" good defensively, when he felt like it. He was primarily an offensive guy. He had nice size and strength and this helped him in the corners and in front of the net but the fact that one scouting report said he "will hit" doesn't mean it was a career-long trend. I am sorry, I wish I put more into those AA bios; that was a very busy month of my life. My honest impression after having Anderson is that he was a mainly offensive player who was not a physical or defensive liability, though he struggled with consistency and confidence sometimes.

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I meant I believe Derlago has more intangibles than Savard, he's an acclaimed penalty killer, faceoff ace, defensive player and offensively capable, Savard may be better defensively, but Derlago has the same edge offensively that Savard has defensively.
I don't think Derlago has more credibility as a checker. Savard was a 3rd line checker his entire career - this is what he did!

Derlago definitely had the skill to be the 3rd member of a scoring line with strong wingers. He also appears to have been "good defensively for a top line center" but I don't think this makes him more credible an all-time checker.

Offensively, Derlago was the beneficiary of healthy amounts of PP time. It may surprise you to learn that Savard was a better ES scorer: 40 adjusted ES points per season, as opposed to 37 for Derlago, with much lesser linemates, and averaged this higher per-game rate over 42% more NHL games.

Savard is a very underrated and underappreciated player!

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12-02-2011, 01:26 AM
  #48
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Anderson's scouting reports describe him as a guy with speed and elusive moves, who can also play LW, had size and strength (5'11", 200), sometimes lacked confidence. in 1984, he's called good defensively, then in 1985, good defensively, "when he wants to be". In 1988, he's dscribed as "better than average" defensively. He was especially dangerous on the PP. He will hit, work the corners, and take the rough stuff in front of the net. In 1988, it's said that he "got very old very fast", which, in retrospect, was very common for marginal stars in the 1987-1991 time period.
Pretty weak evidence of defensive ability, IMO. Sounds like a guy who was just a bit better than average to me. Where did you find evidence of his physical ability? Was that in the scouting reports too?


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12-02-2011, 07:11 AM
  #49
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I still think Anderson could be considered a two-way forward, and still the second best defensive forward of the six first line players.

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12-02-2011, 01:03 PM
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Pretty weak evidence of defensive ability, IMO. Sounds like a guy who was just a bit better than average to me. Where did you find evidence of his physical ability? Was that in the scouting reports too?
Agree, that is my point. Three mentions in 11 years and one even hints at inconsistency. Basically, not a liability, not much better than that. Physically, there was probably one or two mentions so I didn't make a big deal of of it. "Will hit" doesn't mean "usually does".

However, VR has a point. Most guys we draft to be scorers at this level don't have many other skills; if they did, we would take them at higher levels. Anderson's defense ranks pretty high among those 20 post-expansion nhl wingers I named: I'd put Hogue, McEachern, Ysebaert, Sturm, Osborne and Mullen ahead, the rest behind.

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