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Old
11-28-2011, 11:05 AM
  #101
The Black1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Maybe some have seen these same attempts by Murray in the past to "jump-start" his offense and they never work out long term. There is something fundamentally wrong with how the Kings approach their offense. Otherwise all of the roster changes over the past 4 years should show some overall improvement. 30th in 5-on-5 scoring in year one of Murray and very little improvement in year 4. 28th right now.

1/4 of the season is gone and the Kings are currently out of the playoffs. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but with Murray, it isn't shocking to see the Kings struggling to score goals.

The Kings were the ones that proclaimed that "the time is now".
Hey, I'm on board with you when it comes to our struggles with 5 on 5. But the bottom line is TM IS trying to shake things up and have made some good line moves imo. So, what do you say we give TM and his new lines a chance. Yeah, we're more than 25% of the season done but we still have almost 75% still remaining.

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11-28-2011, 11:09 AM
  #102
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
There's just no pleasing for some of you guys.
Pretty much... if the answer is to fire the coach, then there must be a simple solution once that happens. If Hunter isn't the answer on the first line for what will more than likely be one game, then there should be an obvious answer for that. If the players and/or the coach sucks and it doesn't matter how the line are assembled, why are people even commenting on it?

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11-28-2011, 11:23 AM
  #103
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For those interested...

Kings' Penner Close To Return: Dustin Penner (hand) has been medically cleared to return but will not rejoin the lineup Monday, the LA Kings Insider reports.
(Updated 11/28/2011)
Injury Report
Hand -
(Updated - 11/13/11)
Fantasy Analysis
Dustin Penner got through a full practice Sunday but figures to need a few more practices to get back to full speed. It remains to be seen what line and role he'll have upon his return, however.
(Updated 11/28/2011).

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11-28-2011, 11:30 AM
  #104
Buddy The Elf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Maybe some have seen these same attempts by Murray in the past to "jump-start" his offense and they never work out long term. There is something fundamentally wrong with how the Kings approach their offense. Otherwise all of the roster changes over the past 4 years should show some overall improvement. 30th in 5-on-5 scoring in year one of Murray and very little improvement in year 4. 28th right now.

1/4 of the season is gone and the Kings are currently out of the playoffs. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but with Murray, it isn't shocking to see the Kings struggling to score goals.

The Kings were the ones that proclaimed that "the time is now".
Ok so if you are of the opinion that it doesn't matter what Murray does with the lines, why even comment on Hunter on the first line?

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11-28-2011, 11:37 AM
  #105
Josh Deitell
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Change is good. Except when TM does it. Then it's bad. Really bad.

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11-28-2011, 11:38 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Ok so if you are of the opinion that it doesn't matter what Murray does with the lines, why even comment on Hunter on the first line?
Because there are better option if he wants to "shake up" the lines. I already posted them earlier, but here you go:

Gagne-Richards-Williams
Richardson/(Penner)-Kopitar-Brown
Clifford-Loktionov-Stoll
Moreau/Richardson-Lewis-Westgarth

Fraser plays center when Westgarth sits and Lewis switches to RW. Hunter is waived when Penner returns. Richardson can switch with Moreau when Penner is activated. This leaves Moreau, Fraser, Lewis and Richardson as the rotating forwards.

But I expect Loktionov to be sent to Manchester to make room for Penner and Stoll would move back to center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Change is good. Except when TM does it. Then it's bad. Really bad.
When has he changed? Changing lines isn't really changing. It's not like the Kings were scoring and now they are not, they haven't scored consisitenty over 4 years. Changing the lines and personell hasn't worked in the past, why will it work now?

He sure talks a lot about changes to the media, but I haven't seen the Kings actually play any different. Either the team has tuned him out or he hasn't changed. Both are bad.

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11-28-2011, 11:41 AM
  #107
Josh Deitell
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Is it just me or is the third line perfect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
When has he changed? Changing lines isn't really changing. It's not like the Kings were scoring and now they are not, they haven't scored consisitenty over 4 years. Changing the lines and personell hasn't worked in the past, why will it work now?

He sure talks a lot about changes, but I haven't seen the Kings actually play any different. Either the team has tuned him out or he hasn't changed. Both are bad.
There's more to the game than scoring goals. The reason we're good at everything else is because of TM. Kopi is a microcosm.

For whatever reason, this team scores in unpredictable bursts. Line changes spark those kinds of things sometimes. Hopefully we get some of the guys like Hunter going and then we can actually start forming more permanent units and focusing on chemistry. This is not the way the lines are going to look in two weeks and that's the way it should be. Things will end up more similar to the setup you posted, I'm sure, but this really is a last ditch effort to get the peanut gallery in on the scoring act before a roster change is made.

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11-28-2011, 11:43 AM
  #108
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Hunter on the 1st line? wtf? Brown and Kopi have always had chemistry, i see Browns game improving but hunters hands are made of stone and his feet are made of led...him being moved up is a head scratcher for sure. I actually like the other changes and am excited to see how things work...i really dont know what Murray see's in Hunter though, guy should be on the 4th line or in the press box.

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11-28-2011, 11:50 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Because there are better option if he wants to "shake up" the lines. I already posted them earlier, but here you go:

Gagne-Richards-Williams
Richardson/(Penner)-Kopitar-Brown
Clifford-Loktionov-Stoll
Moreau/Richardson-Lewis-Westgarth
And what gives you the idea that Richardson, who has a career highs of 14 goals and a high of 11 goals under Terry Murray, is going to perform any better than Trent Hunter on the first line?

You still have Brown/Kopitar, Clifford/Loktionov and Gagne/Richards. What you proposed isn't much different than what TM currently put together. You really think the results are going to be much better with what you proposed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
When has he changed? Changing lines isn't really changing. It's not like the Kings were scoring and now they are not, they haven't scored consisitenty over 4 years. Changing the lines and personell hasn't worked in the past, why will it work now?
Then why in the hell are you proposing your own line combinations if it isn't going to change anything? And the Kings might not have been a high producing team under TM but they have produced more than they are currently. I'd like to see them score more even if it means a marginal (/hayward) improvement. Anything more will be a positive at this point.

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11-28-2011, 12:19 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
That is just all facepalm. It's hard to fathom such changes. Obviously Hunter is the biggest WTF move out of them all. This is not the same guy that scored 25 goals for the Islanders nearly a decade ago... He's only scored more than 35 points once since 2005, and he had his second lowest goal totals and finished the year a -17. I don't care what anybody says, Hunter is not an offensive player. He is now a grinding bottom 6'er, who is now a fringe NHL'er mercenary. I would much rather see someone like Richardson or Lewis there than Hunter.

The next biggest thing is the defensive pairings. I am all down with giving Voynov the nod and promotion, but I can't say that I like the fact that Johnson and Greene are now paired up. Even though Jack has been good for us this year, it is just a recipe for disaster.

The third line is interesting, but I don't think Williams should be down there in the first place. He has been ineffective for a bit now, but I don't think he deserves to be on the bottom 6. I would do:

Brown-Kopitar-Stoll
Gange-Richards-Williams
Clifford-Loktionov-Lewis
Richardson-Fraser-Westgarth

Johnson-Doughty
Mitchell-Voynov
Scuderi-Greene
I like these lines, except that I think Lokti needs a sniper. Not that Williams deserves a "demotion" to the bottom six, but he is a great fit for Lokti's wing. I would love to see Lewis get a shot on that 2nd line. He has been stymied his whole career being stuck with players that can't keep up with his speed.

Brown-Kopitar-Stoll
Gange-Richards-Lewis
Clifford-Loktionov-Williams
Moreau / Richardson-Fraser-Westgarth

These lines are pretty sweet IMO.

I'm indifferent between Richie & Moreau. I like Moreau's physicality on that 4th line. I like the way Richie can create havoc with his speed. Neither one will get any points so, meh, whatever. Loving Fraser & Westy though.

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11-28-2011, 12:25 PM
  #111
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Then why in the hell are you proposing your own line combinations if it isn't going to change anything? And the Kings might not have been a high producing team under TM but they have produced more than they are currently. I'd like to see them score more even if it means a marginal (/hayward) improvement. Anything more will be a positive at this point.
So, you want to just go back to 25th in offense last year (2.55)? That is the goal?

They are 25th right now at 2.35. 2.55 would put them 19th right now. I guess that is good enough for most Kings fans.

Or you want to go back to the previous season when their PP had the 5th most goals, but 5-on-5 was ranked 19th? At least that was the Kings' best season in a long time. Murray peaked in his second season and has regressed the last 2.

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11-28-2011, 12:37 PM
  #112
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
So, you want to just go back to 25th in offense last year (2.55)? That is the goal?

They are 25th right now at 2.35. 2.55 would put them 19th right now. I guess that is good enough for most Kings fans.

Or you want to go back to the previous season when their PP had the 5th most goals, but 5-on-5 was ranked 19th? At least that was the Kings' best season in a long time. Murray peaked in his second season and has regressed the last 2.
Yup... 25th is the goal, smarty pants. Lets see if they can get there. I think I was pretty clear in what I said, any improvement is welcomed. I don't have any goals for the team but I want them to play well and we all know they can play better than what they have even under Terry Murray. How about 9th in the league in scoring like they were in 2009/2010? Or maybe somewhere in between where they are now and where they were then? Is that so farfetched?

Does adjusting the lines matter or not? I've seen you suggest lines and say it doesn't matter what he does yet you are taking the time to propose lines. You are just ranting and raving for the sake of it. I get it, you don't like Murray. I think that is pretty much the consensus of the board at this point but he is still the coach no matter what anyone says. So long as he is the coach, or anyone is for that matter, I'd like to see the team perform to their best of their ability. And if that means a marginal improvement, I'll take it.

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11-28-2011, 01:06 PM
  #113
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Good changes... these lines will be interesting because it will force the players to be more focused on what their linemates are doing rather than playing by rote... (" Willie always goes to the far post, so I'll just lift the puck over there. Whoops, didn't see Doughty waving his stick on the backside... oh well, next time"). Also forces them to play the system with more focus.

Williams was moved down because he's been horrible at getting over the blue line and he's in one of his slumps. Loki can carry the puck and let Williams just be a sniper. They compliment each others playing style down low with short quick passes and quick hands around the net. Could be very good.

Hunter is up front for tip ins and corner work with Brown. It also makes the first line much bigger and faster. Brown and Hunter could open lanes up for Kopi. TM is probably thinking Kopi could get Hunter some rebounds - now that he's shooting more.

Anybody else think the Richards line will play the best two way hockey? A very nice balance between offense and defense that TM can throw out for big time face offs? Richards other task is showing Stoll how to use that gun....

GO KINGS!

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11-28-2011, 01:38 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Still waiting for you to tell us who should be on the first line (and the other 3 for that matter)... guess I'll be waiting a long time.
I would start by pairing the players who have already shown some chemistry. Kopitar and Brown did OK together and Richards and Gagne have some history playing together. The other wing could be determined during practice from the players who have an aptitude for scoring goals, not just the grizzled veterans. Williams should probably play with Richards and I would try Loktionov or Richardson with Kopitar to see if anything clicks.

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11-28-2011, 01:54 PM
  #115
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I would start by pairing the players who have already shown some chemistry. Kopitar and Brown did OK together and Richards and Gagne have some history playing together. The other wing could be determined during practice from the players who have an aptitude for scoring goals, not just the grizzled veterans. Williams should probably play with Richards and I would try Loktionov or Richardson with Kopitar to see if anything clicks.
Let me ask you a very simple question. In the past couple of games, there have been couple of shifts where Hunter was playing alongside Kopi, and Hunter did well. So, if you're TM and he sees that Hunter plays well with Kopi, why is it such a crime to TRY him on Kopi's line? No one said this was permanent, but what's wrong with giving it a try?

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11-28-2011, 02:03 PM
  #116
Buddy The Elf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I would start by pairing the players who have already shown some chemistry. Kopitar and Brown did OK together and Richards and Gagne have some history playing together. The other wing could be determined during practice from the players who have an aptitude for scoring goals, not just the grizzled veterans. Williams should probably play with Richards and I would try Loktionov or Richardson with Kopitar to see if anything clicks.
So you'd leave Jarret Stoll centering the 3rd line? And Terry Murray has paired Kopitar w/ brown and Richards with Gagne so it looks like you agree with him there. Richardson has a career high of 14 goals and 11 was his best season under Murray. What makes you think he is any better of an option than Hunter at this point? Richardson has a whopping 3 goals in the past 12 months of regular season play and has been a regular healthy scratch this season which is something you criticized Hunter for. You also pointed out Hunter has zero goals in the past year but most of that time he had a torn ligament in his knee. What is Richardson's excuse? And how is that any less bizarre than the Hunter decision? Richardson, who has been healthy most, if not all of the past 12 months has scored 3 goals in 64 regular season games in that time. I guess that is 3 more than Hunter in almost 6 times as many games played.

Sounds like you got it all figured out though!

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11-28-2011, 02:56 PM
  #117
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Buddy,

Just because I can't make Terry adopt a more progressive style doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about the line combinations. Or discuss how I think the players should be used. I don’t think anyone wants to see the Kings fail and if these lines produce long term results, then bravo Terry! I just think that the 260+ game résumé Terry has with LA is far more indicative of future results than hoping the latest jumbled lines are the answer to the problem. Switching the lines around will not fix the underlying problems with the offense, it could produce extra offense in the short term, but how is that going to help the team in March and April? Or do you think Hunter is the long term answer at #1 RW?


What is the point of the message board? It's not like any of us can enact changes with the Kings. Nothing that is written here makes any difference with the players or management. Should we just stop giving our opinions? You could always just put me on ignore until Terry is fired.

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11-28-2011, 03:03 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
What is the point of the message board?
It really is ridiculous. Every time something negative is said about a player, coach, GM it is met by the same lame replies from the same small group of people.

This is a message board for a team that is currently 10th in the West that is having a hell of a time even scoring 2 goals in a game, what the hell are we supposed to talk about excet for changes?

What do we have to be positive about besides Kopi and Richards?

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11-28-2011, 03:07 PM
  #119
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
It really is ridiculous. Every time something negative is said about a player, coach, GM it is met by the same lame replies from the same small group of people.

This is a message board for a team that is currently 10th in the West that is having a hell of a time even scoring 2 goals in a game.

What do we have to be positive about besides Kopi and Richards?
How about that we've played poorly yet we're only 2 points out of 5th place in the conference.

See how it is? You see glass half empty and I see it half full.

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11-28-2011, 03:12 PM
  #120
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How about that we've played poorly yet we're only 2 points out of 5th place in the conference.

See how it is? You see glass half empty and I see it half full.
That's great. I am happy that you are content with the way this team is playing.

But you and your crew should just shut-up about calling people not loyal fans, or saying things like "If you don't like Dean and Murray go cheer for a different team"

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11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Sounds like you got it all figured out though!
I don't have it all figured out - that's the job of the coach. He sees these players skate nearly every day in drills and practices and games. Judging by the results so far, he doesn't have it all figured out either. I just don't see Hunter as a scoring forward - sure, he scored 20 goals a long time ago, but that WAS a long time ago.

We all saw Richardson be able to put up some points in the playoffs last year when the Kings opened up the offense, so I'd try my stuff first.

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11-28-2011, 03:19 PM
  #122
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
That's great. I am happy that you are content with the way this team is playing.

But you and your crew should just shut-up about calling people not loyal fans, or saying things like "If you don't like Dean and Murray go cheer for a different team"
I'm sorry YOU and your crew aren't feeling the love.

Yeah, it does get tiring when all you guys do is complaint after complaint but I don't think anyone wants you guys out of here.

Heck, it'd be boring without counter points you guys bring up. I may not always agree with them, but it does keep the board alive and kicking.

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11-28-2011, 03:26 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
It really is ridiculous. Every time something negative is said about a player, coach, GM it is met by the same lame replies from the same small group of people.

This is a message board for a team that is currently 10th in the West that is having a hell of a time even scoring 2 goals in a game, what the hell are we supposed to talk about excet for changes?

What do we have to be positive about besides Kopi and Richards?

It's not so much "every time something negative... ", it's due to an intense dislike for Lombardi and Murray, every time its only negative. At least that's the way it seems to me.

Despite what good things - in some posters opinions (I'd say the majority, but whatever) - they've done for the Kings, you and some other posters manage to paint it black. To coin a phrase. "Every time." On balance, though, DL and TM have done a great deal for the Kings.

There are players who are currently performing far, far below their personal career averages and one or two (DD and DP) who are at such a poor level of compete and play that it's getting into their heads. You blame the coach(es) and system for that poor performance and the GM for choosing those players, coaches, and system. Fair enough. I don't. I hold the players up for account.

I see some players who get their game up to a certain level and then relax and coast and get cute. That's on the players.

Eventually they'll get tired of losing and do it the coaches way. Then they'll start winning again. If they are mature enough and ready for the big time, the players will stick with the coaches system and start winning more than their share of games.

It's just an opinion....


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11-28-2011, 03:31 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I don't have it all figured out - that's the job of the coach. He sees these players skate nearly every day in drills and practices and games. Judging by the results so far, he doesn't have it all figured out either. I just don't see Hunter as a scoring forward - sure, he scored 20 goals a long time ago, but that WAS a long time ago.

We all saw Richardson be able to put up some points in the playoffs last year when the Kings opened up the offense, so I'd try my stuff first.
Hunter was put up front because he's much much bigger than Richie and still pretty fast. Not for his goal scoring touch. He's better in the corners and hard to push off the net.

Richardson, otoh, has been up in the NHL for a few years with all the time and chance in the world to start scoring some goals and has never quite put it together. I hope he does. In the meantime, Hunter is a very interesting choice to play beside Kopi and he has some upside as far as scoring goes.

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11-28-2011, 03:33 PM
  #125
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Buddy,

Just because I can't make Terry adopt a more progressive style doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about the line combinations. Or discuss how I think the players should be used. I don’t think anyone wants to see the Kings fail and if these lines produce long term results, then bravo Terry! I just think that the 260+ game résumé Terry has with LA is far more indicative of future results than hoping the latest jumbled lines are the answer to the problem. Switching the lines around will not fix the underlying problems with the offense, it could produce extra offense in the short term, but how is that going to help the team in March and April? Or do you think Hunter is the long term answer at #1 RW?


What is the point of the message board? It's not like any of us can enact changes with the Kings. Nothing that is written here makes any difference with the players or management. Should we just stop giving our opinions? You could always just put me on ignore until Terry is fired.
And you can put me on ignore as well. You don't because you value my opinion. And I don't blame you, i have a lot to add to the discussion.

I didn't say you can't have an opinion. All I am saying is if you don't believe changing the lines is going to have any kind of impact, then why even make suggestions? Is that not double talk?

The point I'm making is that as bad as the team is offensively, they have played better offensively under TM then they are playing now. You and I both know that. So for you to say in one post that it doesn't matter what TM does, the system is still the problem, then suggest that he has messed up the line combos is ridiculous. What does it matter what the combos are if the system is going to be a failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
It really is ridiculous. Every time something negative is said about a player, coach, GM it is met by the same lame replies from the same small group of people.

This is a message board for a team that is currently 10th in the West that is having a hell of a time even scoring 2 goals in a game, what the hell are we supposed to talk about excet for changes?

What do we have to be positive about besides Kopi and Richards?
You guys can say whatever you want and you do. I'm not here to defend Terry or Dean. I think it is borderline comical that you are screaming about "when will people get it?" when the majority of the board agrees with your position on TM at bare minimum at this point.

I didn't say Sydor can't have an opinion. But if you are going to say line combos don't matter then suggest them, i'm going to ask you what in the hell your point is. It is almost as ridiculous as saying "fire the coach" and "fire the GM". Ok, great, we're all on board. Fire them. Then what? Crickets..

I'm really disappointed in how this team has performed so far but the season isn't even close to over. The win a few games and they are right in the middle of everything.

Given you seem to be of the opinion that the personnel AND management are the problem, I'm not sure why you are so disappointed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
That's great. I am happy that you are content with the way this team is playing.

But you and your crew should just shut-up about calling people not loyal fans, or saying things like "If you don't like Dean and Murray go cheer for a different team"
First of all, there are no "crews" here. Who is telling you to cheer for a different team? I'm merely of the opinion that as long as those are the people in charge, I'd like to see the team perform as well as they can. I've criticized DL in the past on quite a few occasions. I've agreed with Sydor and yourself on Terry Murray on quite a few occasions.

You are just so damn angry all the time that all you ever want to see is people ramble on with negativity and vitriol. I'm sorry that just isn't my style. I'm a happy person with a positive attitude regardless how poor the KIngs play. ANd if the Kings make you so angry, why don't you take a few weeks off? There is more to life than hockey. Believe me, there was a time when I got pretty upset about it too. Then I reflected on my life and realized that it isn't worth getting mad over. It made watching games so much better. I get frustrated watching but I would never let what happens in professional sports ruin my day. I know you'll ridicule me for giving you a Tony Robbins speech but take a chill pill brother. You have an opinion just as I do. And quite frequently I don't even disagree with you but you don't seem to like my positivity or my indifference to issues I have no control over.

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