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Old
04-17-2012, 07:38 PM
  #976
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Apparently Span and Gardy got tossed for being upset over a strike call?

God sometimes I hate this sport. I miss hockey season.

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04-17-2012, 08:02 PM
  #977
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Another Twins medical staff FAIL. Baker ends up getting Tommy John...
Is this for ****ing real?

You know last year when Hardy had his first season with the Orioles he was asked what one of the biggest differences between the Twins and Orioles organizations were and he more or less said that the Twins training staff does not know what the **** its doing.

I am inclined to agree with him.

This is a ****ing bad joke.

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04-17-2012, 08:16 PM
  #978
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Another Twins medical staff FAIL. Baker ends up getting Tommy John...
It's not a fail... can't find the article but they had discussed this as a possibility going into the surgery. You can't always detect every problem with an MRI.

Baker had already signed off on tommy john before the surgery...

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04-17-2012, 09:50 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post

Looking at things in a vacuum, though? Absolutely, they haven't done squat, they've got terrible ownership and management, etc.
Except they were two years removed from the being in the NFC Championship game, which is more to say than most of the teams in Minnesota.

They have done a lot.

They have wonderful ownership but okay management. McCombs was a terrible owner, Zygi is fine.

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04-17-2012, 11:00 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Except they were two years removed from the being in the NFC Championship game, which is more to say than most of the teams in Minnesota.

They have done a lot.

They have wonderful ownership but okay management. McCombs was a terrible owner, Zygi is fine.
They didn't build on that, at all. In fact, they've fallen flat on their faces since. Look at all the holes they have in the roster... It's downright depressing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were supposed to be up-and-coming when they got that far. No one expected it to happen, and I heard a lot of "on the verge of something great". And they've missed the playoffs two years in a row since.

Zygi may be a "good" owner, but he's a total tool in public settings. The guy has absolutely no presence, and hearing him speak publicly about the stadium talks has been downright hilarious. The guy just seems painfully out of touch with reality.


I dunno. I'll readily admit, I hate football and everything to do with it, so I'm extremely critical. But I've yet to see anything that shows the Vikes deserve a new stadium.

The Twins got a sweetheart deal because they were supposed to be - and had shown good signs - of being a perennial playoff team. They picked their time, and it payed off. If they wanted the deal they got now? I'd be laughing my butt off.

The Vikes are about as bad as they've ever been, and they're wanting something even remotely similar? Poor timing at best, delusional at worst.

If it weren't for all the businesses that stand to get plowed, and the tax base we would miss if we lose the Vikes, I'd be tossing out the red carpet from the dome to the airport.

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04-17-2012, 11:40 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
They didn't build on that, at all. In fact, they've fallen flat on their faces since. Look at all the holes they have in the roster... It's downright depressing.
The holes on their roster is not due to one of the coaches, it was due to a variety of different factors. Teams rise, teams fall more quickly in football than anywhere else sports.

They couldn't build on all that because the guys they got had a small window.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were supposed to be up-and-coming when they got that far.
No, Favre, Williams (Phat Pat), Hutchinson, key components to the organization had a very small window. Even hints of Winfield breaking down fast.

Quote:
No one expected it to happen, and I heard a lot of "on the verge of something great". And they've missed the playoffs two years in a row since.
Actually, everyone expected it to happen. Favre was the lynchpin in the whole thing. They were a QB away and when Favre started faltering, the team did as well.

Quote:
Zygi may be a "good" owner, but he's a total tool in public settings. The guy has absolutely no presence, and hearing him speak publicly about the stadium talks has been downright hilarious. The guy just seems painfully out of touch with reality.
Zygi has been a better owner than McCombs and has put a lot of his own money in this stadium situation.

Quote:
I dunno. I'll readily admit, I hate football and everything to do with it, so I'm extremely critical. But I've yet to see anything that shows the Vikes deserve a new stadium.
And I see no reason why they gave a stadium to the Goofs or the Twins.

Quote:
The Twins got a sweetheart deal because they were supposed to be - and had shown good signs - of being a perennial playoff team. They picked their time, and it payed off. If they wanted the deal they got now? I'd be laughing my butt off.
If I was the state, I would be demanding some pay back from the Twins. They are an absolute joke of an organization now. It makes the Mets look a bit sane.

Quote:
The Vikes are about as bad as they've ever been, and they're wanting something even remotely similar? Poor timing at best, delusional at worst.
This has been going on since their good days. State has been tightening up the budget though.

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04-17-2012, 11:41 PM
  #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Except they were two years removed from the being in the NFC Championship game, which is more to say than most of the teams in Minnesota.

They have done a lot.

They have wonderful ownership but okay management. McCombs was a terrible owner, Zygi is fine.
And they went to the NFC championship game how many times in the past 15 years and failed to get to the Super Bowl how many times?

I'll wait a moment while that sinks in.

And then everything Vashanesh said about them completely falling on their faces since then and being total tools.

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04-17-2012, 11:46 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
And they went to the NFC championship game how many times in the past 15 years and failed to get to the Super Bowl how many times?

I'll wait a moment while that sinks in.

And then everything Vashanesh said about them completely falling on their faces since then and being total tools.
Just a couple seasons ago was the first time in team history that the Atlanta Falcons had two winning seasons in a row. Let that one sink in for a second. They hadn't previously been able to get so much as 8 wins two years in a row prior to that.

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04-17-2012, 11:49 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
And they went to the NFC championship game how many times in the past 15 years and failed to get to the Super Bowl how many times?

I'll wait a moment while that sinks in.

And then everything Vashanesh said about them completely falling on their faces since then and being total tools.
How many times have the Wild been to the Western Conference finals? How long has it been since the Wild won a playoff series?

How long has it been since the Gophers been to a relevant bowl game? Been ranked top 25 or even top 10?

How long has it been since the Twins have won a freaking series? Been to the American League Championship?

Based off your criteria, the only one that deserves a new stadium would be the Lynx.

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04-17-2012, 11:51 PM
  #985
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All that needs to be said is that Minnesota may be the State of Hockey but the Twin Cities are a Vikings town first and second.

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04-18-2012, 12:05 AM
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
The holes on their roster is not due to one of the coaches, it was due to a variety of different factors. Teams rise, teams fall more quickly in football than anywhere else sports.

They couldn't build on all that because the guys they got had a small window.



No, Favre, Williams (Phat Pat), Hutchinson, key components to the organization had a very small window. Even hints of Winfield breaking down fast.



Actually, everyone expected it to happen. Favre was the lynchpin in the whole thing. They were a QB away and when Favre started faltering, the team did as well.



Zygi has been a better owner than McCombs and has put a lot of his own money in this stadium situation.



And I see no reason why they gave a stadium to the Goofs or the Twins.



If I was the state, I would be demanding some pay back from the Twins. They are an absolute joke of an organization now. It makes the Mets look a bit sane.



This has been going on since their good days. State has been tightening up the budget though.
Just because one owner is better than another garbage owner doesn't mean he's a saint. It just means he's not a steaming pile of crap. That leaves a lot of room for still being terrible.

And putting up a bunch of his own money? He damn well better, he's out of his mind if he expects the state, or a city, to pay to watch a piss-poor team that looks YEARS away from relevancy. By then, AP will be past his prime - if he isn't already, and we're looking at a top-to-bottom rebuild...

I'll admit, I was wrong about the up-and-coming deal. We were a QB away, we got one on his last legs and made a run of it. As it stands, we're still down a QB, and things aren't looking like they're getting better anytime soon.

I'm with you on the Twins right about now, though. It's looking like they pulled to wool over everyone's eyes. But, what's done is done. Just because of one situation that's looking like a mistake now... That's no reason to make one that already looks like a mistake before a single penny has been spent...

Trust me, I understand that there's a lot of emotion in this debate. Losing a pro team sucks, more than can be summed up in a few sentences. But do you truly want your tax money going to pay for crap? You're saying that the state should be asking the Twins for money back, and yet you're arguing for throwing money at a similarly terrible - if not worse - situation?

A lot of people are coming at this from the high-end of emotional investment, I'm looking from the polar opposite.

It just doesn't add up, for me.

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04-18-2012, 12:10 AM
  #987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
How many times have the Wild been to the Western Conference finals? How long has it been since the Wild won a playoff series?

How long has it been since the Gophers been to a relevant bowl game? Been ranked top 25 or even top 10?

How long has it been since the Twins have won a freaking series? Been to the American League Championship?

Based off your criteria, the only one that deserves a new stadium would be the Lynx.
Wild vs. Vikings? Really? We've got Nucks level lack of success, vs. a sub-15 year-old expansion team.

I don't even care about the Gophers, at all, so I'm just going to leave that one alone.

The Twins at least LOOKED like a team that was built for the Minnesota sports definition of success: made the playoffs? Kudos, you've got a pass for the year.

I can only assume it's hyperbole, but we're really only discussing the big-3 of sports here: baseball, football and hockey. I'll take women's basketball serious when they actually pay their players for the playoffs...

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04-18-2012, 12:20 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
Just because one owner is better than another garbage owner doesn't mean he's a saint. It just means he's not a steaming pile of crap. That leaves a lot of room for still being terrible.
But it doesn't mean he's a terrible owner. He's a good owner, and still fairly young owner at that in terms of owning a football team. He's learning. He's never owned a sport's team before.

Quote:
And putting up a bunch of his own money? He damn well better, he's out of his mind if he expects the state, or a city, to pay to watch a piss-poor team that looks YEARS away from relevancy. By then, AP will be past his prime - if he isn't already, and we're looking at a top-to-bottom rebuild...
So why isn't the Twins owner putting up a bunch of his own damn money for the stadium? 1/3 of the stadium was paid for by the Twins. Big whoop. They are a piss-poor organization and have been for years.

BTW and again football teams are much more fluid in terms of moving up or down the boards. With the right guys, Minnesota could be competing again. As well, AP isn't really much of anything for any organization. Running backs are easily replaceable now.

Quote:
I'll admit, I was wrong about the up-and-coming deal. We were a QB away, we got one on his last legs and made a run of it. As it stands, we're still down a QB, and things aren't looking like they're getting better anytime soon.
Depends. QBs can take a bit of time to develop. Manning's first year was a disaster. We lost the starting left tackle and had no receivers by the start of the season. Yeah. Try and compete with that. Ponder didn't really have much to work with. We'll see what happens after this year's draft.

Quote:
I'm with you on the Twins right about now, though. It's looking like they pulled to wool over everyone's eyes. But, what's done is done. Just because of one situation that's looking like a mistake now... That's no reason to make one that already looks like a mistake before a single penny has been spent...
Twins screwed over the Vikings. Twins should pay for some of the Vikings' stadium cost.

Quote:
Trust me, I understand that there's a lot of emotion in this debate. Losing a pro team sucks, more than can be summed up in a few sentences. But do you truly want your tax money going to pay for crap? You're saying that the state should be asking the Twins for money back, and yet you're arguing for throwing money at a similarly terrible - if not worse - situation?
Because the Vikings' situation is lot different than the Twins? Vikings can easily be competing in a year or two. Twins? Not so much if they don't get their act right. I have more confidence that the Vikings can rebuild and quickly than the Twins at this point.

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Wild vs. Vikings? Really? We've got Nucks level lack of success, vs. a sub-15 year-old expansion team.
Nashville is doing fairly well lately. And the Vikings have had a lot of success in the past. It's just there is a TON of parity right now in the NFL.

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04-18-2012, 09:10 AM
  #989
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They were one bad penalty/interception away from making the Super Bowl. They gave Favre a bonus to come back and play again. A lot of things went right for them the first year and a lot went wrong the second.

They weren't up and coming...they were getting old. The QB was 40-something, the OL was old, they weren't deep at receiver.

Zygi is a GREAT owner. He's spent tons and tons of money on the team BEFORE he got a stadium deal, unlike the Pohlads who never opened up the pocket book UNTIL they got their deal, and then slammed it shut again. It would be a shame if the state lost the team and the owner.

Look at the costs of stadiums (adjusted for inflation):

Metrodome - $164M
Target Center - $185M
XCel Energy Center - $175M
TCF Bank Stadium - $329M
Target Field - $581M
Vikings Stadium ~ $800M - 1B

Again, those are adjusted for inflation.

The current reality of pro sports is they are subsidized. If they want a team here, they'll have to pay for it one way or another. Better to get the stadium now while Zygi is pouring some money in than wait 10 years and pay inflated prices without owner contribution PLUS pay $500 MILLION in relocation fees to attract a team. We don't build a stadium now, and keep in mind Zygi and the NFL are contributing $400M, wait another 10 years...I guarantee those stadium costs are going to be closer to $1.2B, and again there are relocation fees rumored to be $500M or so.

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04-18-2012, 10:06 AM
  #990
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Perhaps the most important thing to remember about subsidizing sports stadiums is that, agree with the subsidies or not, someone will offer that subsidy to them if you won't. If you want a team, you are almost requried to offer a subsidy because they'll get one somewhere else.

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04-18-2012, 10:07 AM
  #991
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I think the Vikings leaving would be a huge blow to the city. I get that the budget it tight and all that good jazz, but seriously, as Gopher said this is a Vikings city first and second. It wouldn't be good at all for the most part. I'm not even sure if the economic impact would be that big on bars and things like that, but not having an NFL team means less recognition as a whole. That idea could look worse when trying attract other things that help the economy such as bigger businesses and the best and brightest workers. If you can give the Gophers a brand new stadium, you better be able to give the Vikings one.

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04-18-2012, 10:08 AM
  #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Perhaps the most important thing to remember about subsidizing sports stadiums is that, agree with the subsidies or not, someone will offer that subsidy to them if you won't. If you want a team, you are almost requried to offer a subsidy because they'll get one somewhere else.
I'm sure there's a ton of cities around the US that would LOVE to have an NFL team whether it's LA or somewhere else.

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04-18-2012, 10:40 AM
  #993
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Exactly.

Look I'm a libertarian, small government guy. I'm not all excited about handing out money to billionaire owners. But that's the reality. If you want to play the game, you have to step up. I don't think it's worth it for Minnesota to cash in their chips on pro football over $100M or whatever the difference in funding is.

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04-18-2012, 10:43 AM
  #994
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The chart that Jarick posted is what pisses me off about the whole ordeal. They're practically refusing to accept any improvement to their current situation that isn't a $1B+ ****ing Football Versailles. They won't accept a large scale renovation of the Metrodome to make it a permanent football venue even though it's a perfectly capable football stadium completely tuned to the needs of this market.

It's not like the Twins, where outdoor play is the norm––the Vikings would get a retractable roof and then never ****ing open it because, SURPRISE, it gets below ****ing 0 during football season. It's not like the Twins, where half the seats didn't face the important parts of the playing surface. It's not like the Twins, where teams aren't used to playing on turf. It's not like the Twins, where important ballpark features like actual bullpens were missing.

They could very easily renovate the Metrodome, redo the concourses to make it a much nicer facility, redo the concessions, install new big-ass scoreboards, etc. No, the reason that won't happen is because this entire debacle has nothing to do with football or fan attendance, but is just a painfully thinly-veiled excuse to not renew their current lease, because the terms are too favorable to the city in their opinion.


Also, I hope the NFL realizes that they will be totally and permanently losing this market if the Vikes move. It's the exact opposite of the Wild: people love Hockey and cheer for the Wild because they're a hockey team. With the Vikes, frankly, nobody here gives a **** about the sport of football––it's just that watching the Vikings (choke) is a passion and a tradition that has been passed on through generations. Even if they gave us an expansion team, they wouldn't ever come even close to the interest the Vikes currently have. We don't want a football team, we want our football team. And if they don't give us an expansion team, whose games are they going to air? The Packers? Good one.


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04-18-2012, 10:50 AM
  #995
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The chart that Jarick posted is what pisses me off about the whole ordeal. They're practically refusing to accept any improvement to their current situation that isn't a $1B+ ****ing Football Versailles. They won't accept a large scale renovation of the Metrodome to make it a permanent football venue even though it's a perfectly capable football stadium completely tuned to the needs of this market.

It's not like the Twins, where outdoor play is the norm––the Vikings would get a retractable roof and then never ****ing open it because, SURPRISE, it gets below ****ing 0 during football season. It's not like the Twins, where half the seats didn't face the important parts of the playing surface. It's not like the Twins, where teams aren't used to playing on turf. It's not like the Twins, where important ballpark features like actual bullpens were missing.

They could very easily renovate the Metrodome, redo the concourses to make it a much nicer facility, redo the concessions, install new big-ass scoreboards, etc. No, the reason that won't happen is because this entire debacle has nothing to do with football or fan attendance, but is just a painfully thinly-veiled excuse to not renew their current lease, because the terms are too favorable to the city in their opinion.
While I won't comment on the efficiency or need for a $1 Billion dollar stadium as proposed, the Metrodome is not usable.

The only "use" the Metrodome could have is being completely demolished and utilizing the site. Offhand, I have no idea how that would differ from a cost standpoint (I assume with related nearby infrastructure in place, especially roadways and other transportation it would be significantly less) but the fact of the matter is the facility is beyond the point where it's cost-effective to renovate it.

It's also worth noting that, while many people are concerned about the cost of different infrastructure that would be required to support a stadium, that infrastructure doesn't close when football season is over. There will be significant economic value derived from it for non-football purposes. Whether that's sufficient to offset any extraneous costs is something I can't speak to without some serious data, but it can't be ignored as meaningless.

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04-18-2012, 10:53 AM
  #996
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While I won't comment on the efficiency or need for a $1 Billion dollar stadium as proposed, the Metrodome is not usable.

The only "use" the Metrodome could have is being completely demolished and utilizing the site. Offhand, I have no idea how that would differ from a cost standpoint (I assume with related nearby infrastructure in place, especially roadways and other transportation it would be significantly less) but the fact of the matter is the facility is beyond the point where it's cost-effective to renovate it.

It's also worth noting that, while many people are concerned about the cost of different infrastructure that would be required to support a stadium, that infrastructure doesn't close when football season is over. There will be significant economic value derived from it for non-football purposes. Whether that's sufficient to offset any extraneous costs is something I can't speak to without some serious data, but it can't be ignored as meaningless.
Alternatively, the team proposed a ridiculous and infeasible renovation of the Metrodome as a strawman to fallaciously suggest that any renovation would be impractical.

The thing is, people keep complaining about the Metrodome and saying it's "not usable", but they never list anything specific that's wrong with it! With the Twins, I remember a whole list of reasons why it wasn't suitable for baseball, but those issues were specific to baseball fields. It is a much better football venue.

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04-18-2012, 11:05 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
Alternatively, the team proposed a ridiculous and infeasible renovation of the Metrodome as a strawman to fallaciously suggest that any renovation would be impractical.

The thing is, people keep complaining about the Metrodome and saying it's "not usable", but they never list anything specific that's wrong with it! With the Twins, I remember a whole list of reasons why it wasn't suitable for baseball, but those issues were specific to baseball fields. It is a much better football venue.
The Metrodome has continuously been rated one of the bottom 5 facilities in the league (see multiple NFL surveys to this regard). As an aging facility designed as multipurpose so long ago when requirements were different, and expectations for future growth were wildly divergent from current day results, much of the utilities within the building would need to be completely redone. There are concerns about some of the structural stability of the building. With the well publicized roof cave in recently, there's significant public fear as to the safety (whether justified or not).

The cost of properly renovating a facility that was never designed for such renovations, and the expected life of any such changes would be cost prohibitive when compared to the other options. Furthermore, like my previous point: renovating the Metrodome isn't "good enough" for the owner, and LA is more than willing to provide them with what they want in a facility.

Just because the team made an absurd proposal for the Metrodome to try make their new stadium proposal look better doesn't automatically mean the Metrodome is perfect and just a minor upgrade away from being an above average facility in the league. If I exaggerate and call something a ****-hole, when it's really a dump, that doesn't mean it's of average quality because I was over the top.

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04-18-2012, 11:23 AM
  #998
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The Metrodome itself is garbage. The site is fine. They can work with it. They need to wipe it though and start fresh.

What's wrong with the Metrodome? Terrible sight lines, terrible concourses, crappy suites with few opportunities for generating income, it's just an outdated, crappy place to watch football and it won't generate nearly as much income as a newer stadium. Which becomes important down the road as salaries rise.

The proposals range from $700M to $1100M depending on the scope. I think it will settle around $800M depending on no roof, fixed roof, or retractable roof. They need to put a roof on it if they want it to be multipurpose though.

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04-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  #999
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After careful consideration I've decided that should the Vikings move, my next NFL team will be the Texans.

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04-18-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC2600 View Post
After careful consideration I've decided that should the Vikings move, my next NFL team will be the Texans.
I'll probably just give up on trying to get into football entirely. Only time I ever have gotten into it is when the Vikings are doing well, and those times only end in soul crushing disappointment.

After losing to the Falcons in the NFC Championship game, I didn't watch a Vikings game until they had their fast start with Farve that ended up falling short in New Orleans thanks to those lowsy ******* sinners. The football fan in me is just too dead at this point to root for some new team, if we were ever to attract one.

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