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Were Gretzky And Mario "200-Foot Giants" When They Played?

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Old
12-04-2011, 01:34 PM
  #76
revolverjgw
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Pfft, Gilmour's all-around play (offense, defense, physicality, and the dreaded intangibles) killed every one of those players. Only Lemieux had a big enough offensive edge to beat him. As a Habs fan he scared me way more than Lafontaine. Oates? Didn't have the cajones. And you knew guys like Selanne, Robtaille and Turgeon weren't even going to come close to his impact in the playoffs.

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12-04-2011, 02:22 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
And you ought to be ashamed of yourself for that.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Can't be ashamed of the truth.
Good for you BraveCanadian. Im with ya on this one 110%.

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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
OMG, milk, head and shoulders and the non biased towards Kingston don cherry.
A lot more to it than Don Cherrys' "Man Love" for Dougie Gilmour's Kingston roots there habsjunkie.

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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Pfft, Gilmour's all-around play (offense, defense, physicality, and the dreaded intangibles)...
Bingo. The guy was possessed by the Ghost of Dave Keon with a side order of nasty thrown in for good measure.

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12-04-2011, 02:27 PM
  #78
TheDevilMadeMe
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I really don't see how Doug Gilmour could be considered better than Mario Lemieux during those years, given how far ahead Lemieux was offensively, but Gilmour has a very good case for best of the rest.

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12-04-2011, 02:43 PM
  #79
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I really don't see how Doug Gilmour could be considered better than Mario Lemieux during those years, given how far ahead Lemieux was offensively, but Gilmour has a very good case for best of the rest.
Agreed on that one. Lemieux was in a league of his own, but amongst the mere mortals, the rest of the pack, Gilmour was absolutely an alpha, certainly in Toronto, around which pretty much everything revolved. Admittedly it might be difficult for any number of long suffering Leaf fans to be objective about it however, as a conscientious objector who has pretty much refused to invest a single emotional sou in the Leafs since about 1978 he (along with many of the supporting cast at that time) grabbed my attention & admiration.

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12-04-2011, 03:20 PM
  #80
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If there was such a thing as a dual-year MVP that took into consideration regular season and playoffs, who comes close to Gilmour during his two-year peak (probably my favorite couple of years in hockey)? Two monstrous regular seasons with two huge playoff runs to match them. There were guys with elite runs those years, but nobody else with 4.

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12-04-2011, 05:22 PM
  #81
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I really don't see how Doug Gilmour could be considered better than Mario Lemieux during those years, given how far ahead Lemieux was offensively, but Gilmour has a very good case for best of the rest.
Sure for pure talent Lemieux was better.

But for those two years no one got more out of what they had than Gilmour.

And if you compare 92-93 and 93-94 playoffs between Gilmour and Lemieux you close an awful lot of that regular season gap. With an allstar supporting cast Lemieux and the Pens choked against an Isles team in '93 that they should have blown away. In '94 Lemieux missed most of the season and had 7 points and was a -4 in a first round playoff loss.

Same with Gretzky missing half of 93 and really only very slightly (if at all) outplaying Gilmour with a better Kings team to make the finals. In 94 he didn't make the playoffs.

That is why when I say Gilmour was the best player in the world for two years I literally mean for two calendar years. No one matches what he did over that span.

I mean 63 playoff points in 39 games along with unmatched will and grit while leading what would otherwise have been a pretty pedestrian team? I'm just glad I got to see it. Even as crazy as those numbers, are they don't do it justice.

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12-04-2011, 05:33 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Pfft, Gilmour's all-around play (offense, defense, physicality, and the dreaded intangibles) killed every one of those players. Only Lemieux had a big enough offensive edge to beat him. As a Habs fan he scared me way more than Lafontaine. Oates? Didn't have the cajones. And you knew guys like Selanne, Robtaille and Turgeon weren't even going to come close to his impact in the playoffs.
Not buying it sorry. Not even close. I watched him play too, this isn't a case of looking at the numbers after the fact.

He was bested by 40 goals in some instances, no amount of defensive play or physicality can over come that.

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12-04-2011, 06:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Sure for pure talent Lemieux was better.

But for those two years no one got more out of what they had than Gilmour.

And if you compare 92-93 and 93-94 playoffs between Gilmour and Lemieux you close an awful lot of that regular season gap. With an allstar supporting cast Lemieux and the Pens choked against an Isles team in '93 that they should have blown away. In '94 Lemieux missed most of the season and had 7 points and was a -4 in a first round playoff loss.

Same with Gretzky missing half of 93 and really only very slightly (if at all) outplaying Gilmour with a better Kings team to make the finals. In 94 he didn't make the playoffs.

That is why when I say Gilmour was the best player in the world for two years I literally mean for two calendar years. No one matches what he did over that span.

I mean 63 playoff points in 39 games along with unmatched will and grit while leading what would otherwise have been a pretty pedestrian team? I'm just glad I got to see it. Even as crazy as those numbers, are they don't do it justice.
Gretzky outplayed Gilmour in the 93 playoffs by a large margin. Not only did he have one of the best playoffs in NHL history (40 points in 24 games), but he scored a hat trick (including the game winner) plus an assist in game 7 vs Gilmour and his Leafs. And you neglect to mention that Gretzky won the scoring title in 1994 (despite playing for a horrible Kings team that missed the playoffs).

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12-04-2011, 07:24 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Gretzky outplayed Gilmour in the 93 playoffs by a large margin. Not only did he have one of the best playoffs in NHL history (40 points in 24 games), but he scored a hat trick (including the game winner) plus an assist in game 7 vs Gilmour and his Leafs.
No, Gretzky didn't outplay him by a large margin.. you could easily make the case that Gilmour outplayed Gretzky.

Gimour had 35 points in 21 games (which is the exact same pace as Gretzky - 40 in 24 games) and I think we'll all agree was a little better defensively and physically than Gretzky. (like a lot)

You do know that last three games of that series were all decided by a goal and games 5 and 6 were OT games right? Not seeing the large margin. If not for the famous bungled call it may never have gone to game 7 at all.

As for game 7.. that is one game and Gretzky described it as the best game of his NHL career. I don't think we can fault Gilmour much for the best player ever having his best game ever at a timely moment.

For the record, though, Gilmour did have three points in that game 7 himself.

So much for that assertion.

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And you neglect to mention that Gretzky won the scoring title in 1994 (despite playing for a horrible Kings team that missed the playoffs).
That has nothing to do with my point - which is that Lemieux and Gretzky both missed significant time in the regular season and/or playoffs over those two years. Meanwhile Gilmour was still the most valuable player in the league game in and game out over that same time.

It is hard to be the most valuable player to your hockey team from the pressbox or golf course.

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12-04-2011, 07:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
Gretzky outplayed Gilmour in the 93 playoffs by a large margin.
Just to further blow up this nonsense:

In the 93 series:

Gretzky: 7GP 5G 5A 10PTS -3
Gilmour: 7GP 4G 9A 13PTS +6

Then go ahead and add in Gilmour's physicality on top.

I hereby rescind my previous statement that they had been close to equal - it had been clouded by the years and the memory of Gretzky's crazy game 7. Gilmour decisively outplayed him in that playoff series overall.


Gilmour. The best player in the world 92-94.

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12-04-2011, 08:06 PM
  #86
tazzy19
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Just to further blow up this nonsense:

In the 93 series:

Gretzky: 7GP 5G 5A 10PTS -3
Gilmour: 7GP 4G 9A 13PTS +6

Then go ahead and add in Gilmour's physicality on top.

I hereby rescind my previous statement that they had been close to equal - it had been clouded by the years and the memory of Gretzky's crazy game 7. Gilmour decisively outplayed him in that playoff series overall.


Gilmour. The best player in the world 92-94.
But it's that crazy game 7 that makes all the difference. Gretzky didn't just score the hat trick, he scored the series winning goal. He scored this series winning goal with minutes left in the game, and this crazy game 7 performance (as you yourself put it) came after scoring the overtime winner in game six. In game 7, he was in on 4 out of the King's 5 goals.

As for Gilmour's point totals during the playoffs, being on pace isn't the same thing as actually doing it, so I stand by my opinion. 40 points is the FOURTH highest playoff performance in history (Gretzky holds four of the top five). Gilmour's 35 points that year ranks ninth....so it's not really all that close.

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12-04-2011, 09:34 PM
  #87
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But it's that crazy game 7 that makes all the difference. Gretzky didn't just score the hat trick, he scored the series winning goal. He scored this series winning goal with minutes left in the game, and this crazy game 7 performance (as you yourself put it) came after scoring the overtime winner in game six. In game 7, he was in on 4 out of the King's 5 goals.

As for Gilmour's point totals during the playoffs, being on pace isn't the same thing as actually doing it, so I stand by my opinion. 40 points is the FOURTH highest playoff performance in history (Gretzky holds four of the top five). Gilmour's 35 points that year ranks ninth....so it's not really all that close.
yeah, don't let logic enter into it.

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12-05-2011, 09:45 AM
  #88
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A "200' player" is a Bob Gainey
no

how is bob gainey a 200 player when he can't even score 25 goals or 25 assists in a season?

gainey was a player who focused more or less only on defense, he didn't need to focus on offense because better players than him on the canadiens did that job

if you can call gainey a 200 player then i can call valeri bure the same

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12-05-2011, 09:08 PM
  #89
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yeah, don't let logic enter into it.
That's the best you can do? (When encountered with facts that counter an argument, insert blanket statement of choice and hope the facts get forgotten.)

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12-05-2011, 10:40 PM
  #90
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no...

how is bob gainey a 200 player when he can't even score 25 goals or 25 assists in a season?

gainey was a player who focused more or less only on defense, he didn't need to focus on offense because better players than him on the canadiens did that job

if you can call gainey a 200 player then i can call valeri bure the same
Huh?. You should be ashamed. Valeri Bure & Bob Gainey in the same sentence.

I guess my criteria for 200' player needs some splainin, and mind you, its only my perspective & opinion & who knows how many others share it. To me its a player who combines offence with defence and defence with offence; thinks both ways simultaneously. A guy like Gainey was a lot more than just an extremely intelligent defensive forward. No, he didnt put up the numbers but he was still dangerous & prevented the boat loads that couldve gone in from ever being boarded in the neutral zones. He could play full on offence or full on defence. Gilmour, Butch Goring, Mikita, Keon, H.Richard, Orr, Coffey, Park in sparks, Lidstrom, on & on, 200 footers. Both ends they were good, great or brilliant. Neither Gretzky nor Lemieux were ever really pressed defensively, it wasnt their game, they didnt have to be per se'....

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12-06-2011, 06:51 AM
  #91
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That's the best you can do? (When encountered with facts that counter an argument, insert blanket statement of choice and hope the facts get forgotten.)
I was the one giving the facts.

You gave us the boxscore of a single game.

Gilmour did outplay him head to head that series and that is a fact.

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12-06-2011, 08:45 AM
  #92
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i like this milk commercial

not the best ever, but pretty underrated

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12-06-2011, 11:24 AM
  #93
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I was the one giving the facts.

You gave us the boxscore of a single game.

Gilmour did outplay him head to head that series and that is a fact.
Yes, the most IMPORTANT box score of the series (the object is to win the series, right?) and the fourth highest point total in NHL history. Gretzky outplayed Gilmour that playoffs. I don't see how you can argue that -- well, unless you disregard those two facts of course ;-)

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12-06-2011, 01:22 PM
  #94
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Gretzky outplayed Gilmour that playoffs. I don't see how you can argue that -- well, unless you disregard those two facts of course ;-)
I already did argue it, and you have provided nothing but:

a) one overtime goal that Gretzky indisputably should have been in the penalty box for, and

b) a game that there is a distinct possibility shouldn't have happened in which he had one more point than Gilmour

as evidence otherwise.

Maybe I'll start a poll and we'll see what people think about that series.

I will however agree that Kerry Fraser blowing a series turning point call combined with Wayne Gretzky did beat Doug Gilmour and the Leafs in that series, though.

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12-06-2011, 05:30 PM
  #95
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I already did argue it, and you have provided nothing but:

a) one overtime goal that Gretzky indisputably should have been in the penalty box for, and

b) a game that there is a distinct possibility shouldn't have happened in which he had one more point than Gilmour

as evidence otherwise.

Maybe I'll start a poll and we'll see what people think about that series.

I will however agree that Kerry Fraser blowing a series turning point call combined with Wayne Gretzky did beat Doug Gilmour and the Leafs in that series, though.
Ok, now I see the crux of the issue. You're still mad that Gretz didn't get called for the unintentional high stick. Regardless, Gretzky didn't get called. Gretzky took advantage by scoring 4 of the Kings next 6 goals, including 5 points!! Wow. Blame Fraser all you want, but the Leafs just couldn't handle Gretzky. To add insult to injury, Gretzky scored the series winning hat trick goal by banking a near impossible shot off Dave Ellet's skate from behind the net at full speed. Nothing could stop Gretzky when it matters the most that series -- not Gilmour, not Clark, not the Toronto media, nobody -- no matter what excuses (Kerry Fraser, etc) some people trot out.

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