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Old
07-19-2012, 05:08 AM
  #401
Vasilevskiy
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holmgren is an idiot

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07-19-2012, 05:26 AM
  #402
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Just when I was getting bored with the offseason, along comes Paul Holmgren to save the day!

He's entertaining as hell. Kinda dumb, but fun.

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07-19-2012, 05:35 AM
  #403
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Old
07-19-2012, 06:04 AM
  #404
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If my quick scan of the massive amount of information, misinformation, ********, mudslinging, name calling and general hilarity of the threads on the trade board is correct, this was an extremely stupid move on Holmgren's part.

If Shea really wants to leave Nashville, he doesn't touch that offersheet. It's a contract that is apparently 7.1-7.5/year, no NMC/NTC. I really see no way Nashville doesn't match that. The $12million lockout proof bonus for the first year is pricey, but doable.

OTH, if I'm wrong and he really does want out, then the Preds still match, put up with him sulking for a year (in which there may not be any hockey played anyway), and then put him on the trade market. A defenseman with that contract, even if there is a cap rollback is going to get somethig worth more than four 1st round picks that are likely to be in between the 20th and 30th spot. Probably to Philly.

Bascially Paul did all of Nashville's work for them, negotiated a long term contract at a decent price, for a very good player of the type that it's always easy to find a return for, even if he is signed until the universe collapses. Good for them.

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07-19-2012, 06:18 AM
  #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albatross View Post
If my quick scan of the massive amount of information, misinformation, ********, mudslinging, name calling and general hilarity of the threads on the trade board is correct, this was an extremely stupid move on Holmgren's part.

If Shea really wants to leave Nashville, he doesn't touch that offersheet. It's a contract that is apparently 7.1-7.5/year, no NMC/NTC. I really see no way Nashville doesn't match that. The $12million lockout proof bonus for the first year is pricey, but doable.

OTH, if I'm wrong and he really does want out, then the Preds still match, put up with him sulking for a year (in which there may not be any hockey played anyway), and then put him on the trade market. A defenseman with that contract, even if there is a cap rollback is going to get somethig worth more than four 1st round picks that are likely to be in between the 20th and 30th spot. Probably to Philly.

Bascially Paul did all of Nashville's work for them, negotiated a long term contract at a decent price, for a very good player of the type that it's always easy to find a return for, even if he is signed until the universe collapses. Good for them.
Loungo and Nash are still waiting.

All of these monstrously long term deals around the league are limiting what teams can do. That's also why there isn't as much of a free agent frenzy as there used to be.

SFY hasn't fallen into the trap of signing more than 5-6 years. That seems to be the limit on him; as well as the Hurricanes Jim Rutherford (excepting the 10-year deal for Jordan Staal, which is also ridiculous, as he's never even played a game for them)

Weber wants out of Nashville either way, IMO. He signed an offer sheet. Guys who want to stay will negotiate with their current team (assuming they still want them)

This is a critical point of the Nashville Predators history. If they match the offer, they've got potentially 14 years of their captain who has tried to leave, and if they let him go, they're basically in a rebuild mode, and not long after they finally started to do something in the playoffs.

Nashville said that they would match anything thrown at them, so they can't back down now. The CBA negotiations and the potential to limit contract length in the next agreement is adding a whole level of intrigue to this.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 07-19-2012 at 06:35 AM.
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07-19-2012, 06:38 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Loungo and Nash are still waiting.

All of these monstrously long term deals around the league are limiting what teams can do. That's also why there isn't as much of a free agent frenzy as there used to be.
Well the Nash situation is totally different than this. His GM is quite possibly the worst in the league. Nash would have been traded at the deadline or this summer if Howson wasn't asking for the sun, moon and stars. It isn't his contract that is keeping him in Columbus, it's the totally unrealistic demands.

With Luongo, sure it's his contract that's keeping teams at bay. That's a valid comparable. But, it's still comparing a very good 33 yo goalie with a NTC who is signed until he is 41, to a very good 27yo (almost) #1 dman who would be signed until he is 41 with no NMC/NTC. I know which one I would be more inclined to trade for.

The really horrible parts of Weber's contract would be the bonuses in the first two years (I thought it was one, my bad). The cap hit is high, but not outrageous.

I do agree on the general feeling of these front loaded, long term contracts though. It's got to go away, and I bet it does. This is just owners and GM's trying to squeak in before a change that they themselves want mandated becomes effective. Silly stuff, but that's where we are.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I disagree. If Weber really wants out of Nashville, he sucks it up for a year and takes advantage of free agency. Especially considering the CBA situation, where that season, or at least a part of it, could be not played at all. Or he waits for the rumored trade talks to produce something. He doesn't sign an offersheet that could very well lock him up in Nashville for the rest of his career.

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07-19-2012, 06:44 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
Well the Nash situation is totally different than this. His GM is quite possibly the worst in the league. Nash would have been traded at the deadline or this summer if Howson wasn't asking for the sun, moon and stars. It isn't his contract that is keeping him in Columbus, it's the totally unrealistic demands.

With Luongo, sure it's his contract that's keeping teams at bay. That's a valid comparable. But, it's still comparing a very good 33 yo goalie with a NTC who is signed until he is 41, to a very good 27yo (almost) #1 dman who would be signed until he is 41 with no NMC/NTC. I know which one I would be more inclined to trade for.

The really horrible parts of Weber's contract would be the bonuses in the first two years (I thought it was one, my bad). The cap hit is high, but not outrageous.

I do agree on the general feeling of these front loaded, long term contracts though. It's got to go away, and I bet it does. This is just owners and GM's trying to squeak in before a change that they themselves want mandated becomes effective. Silly stuff, but that's where we are.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I disagree. If Weber really wants out of Nashville, he sucks it up for a year and takes advantage of free agency. Especially considering the CBA situation, where that season, or at least a part of it, could be not played at all. Or he waits for the rumored trade talks to produce something. He doesn't sign an offersheet that could very well lock him up in Nashville for the rest of his career.
Rumors don't produce trade talk.

I see your reasoning about the duality of him signing an RFA offer sheet now instead of waiting. But then he's forcing the Preds hand.

If Weber had waited, his rights could have been traded to another team, where he could have then signed, and it wouldn't be such a dick move to Nashville.


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Old
07-19-2012, 07:02 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Rumors don't produce trade talk.

I see your reasoning about the duality of him signing an RFA offer sheet now instead of waiting. But then he's forcing the Preds hand.

If Weber had waited, his rights could have been traded to another team, where he could have then signed, and it wouldn't be such a dick move to Nashville.
Well Dreger tweeted that there were serious trade talks going on with the Preds and Philly. Also with a couple of other teams. Holmgren just decided to not wait.

I don't disagree with you on it being a dick move on Weber's part. It screams "PAY ME". I think that's probably his big priority. He knows, or his agent does, that these types of contracts are likely to go away. He wants the payout before they do. Makes him an ass, but not necessarily one that doesn't want to play for Nashville.

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07-19-2012, 08:51 AM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albatross View Post
Well the Nash situation is totally different than this. His GM is quite possibly the worst in the league. Nash would have been traded at the deadline or this summer if Howson wasn't asking for the sun, moon and stars. It isn't his contract that is keeping him in Columbus, it's the totally unrealistic demands.

With Luongo, sure it's his contract that's keeping teams at bay. That's a valid comparable. But, it's still comparing a very good 33 yo goalie with a NTC who is signed until he is 41, to a very good 27yo (almost) #1 dman who would be signed until he is 41 with no NMC/NTC. I know which one I would be more inclined to trade for.

The really horrible parts of Weber's contract would be the bonuses in the first two years (I thought it was one, my bad). The cap hit is high, but not outrageous.

I do agree on the general feeling of these front loaded, long term contracts though. It's got to go away, and I bet it does. This is just owners and GM's trying to squeak in before a change that they themselves want mandated becomes effective. Silly stuff, but that's where we are.

Edit: Just saw your edit. I disagree. If Weber really wants out of Nashville, he sucks it up for a year and takes advantage of free agency. Especially considering the CBA situation, where that season, or at least a part of it, could be not played at all. Or he waits for the rumored trade talks to produce something. He doesn't sign an offersheet that could very well lock him up in Nashville for the rest of his career.
Actually I find Howson to be brilliant about the situation, and thats a first. Don't bend, don't show weakness, and don't take any less. Nash isn't a forward that isn't going to put you over the top, mind you, but hes still a great piece of have on a team.

All that said... Holmgren is foolish. He continues to just kind of stab at big names in the dark to make things work. Honestly, hes Glen Sather of about 5-8 years ago. Throw big money around at big name players with a bad goaltender. They'll suffer the same fate as the "Dream Team" Eagles and the "Oh god where is Ryan Howard" Phillies. Its sad because he has so many really fantastic pieces in place and doesn't need to mess much with it.

I mean, Matt Read/Coutourier/Talbot all blew up and had great years, along with Simmonds. All of those guys at this point make an amazing mix of forwards to run in your top nine, I miss having depth like that. They were second in goals for, and 20th in goals against, and had two goaltenders with .909 and .899 save percentages, and it wasn't because of a bad defense. The defense was mobile and played well, they suffered from some very stupid, very very stupid mental lapses in play which have become worse with Pronger out. Say what you will about the guy, hes a leader and a rock on defense, and you either listen to him and get your things together or you're cast out of the group. Lavi can't reel the guys in from stupid play - they got by Pittsburgh because of more awful goaltending, given all the stupid penalties and play.

Its just mind boggling.

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07-19-2012, 09:21 AM
  #410
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Ok, apparently the initial numbers were off by just a touch.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...medium=twitter

Quote:
First four seasons (2012-16): $1 million in salary, $13 million in signing bonuses

Seasons five and six (2016-18): $4 million in salary, $8 million in signing bonuses

Seasons seven to 10 (2018-22): $6 million in salary

Season 11 (2022-23): $3 million in salary

Seasons 12 to 14: (2023-26): $1 million in salary

For you mathletes out there…

– It’s a $7.9 million annual cap hit.

– The deal will play $68 million in total signing bonuses.

– In the first six years, the deal will pay $80 million.
I'm no longer convinced that Poile matches. But, I am more convinced than ever that Holmgren has lost his ****ing mind. Two years of nutso bonuses is bad but doable. But this thing...how is this not circumvention?

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07-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
Ok, apparently the initial numbers were off by just a touch.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...medium=twitter



I'm no longer convinced that Poile matches. But, I am more convinced than ever that Holmgren has lost his ****ing mind. Two years of nutso bonuses is bad but doable. But this thing...how is this not circumvention?
Explain how you think it is.

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07-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #412
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Explain how you think it is.
Because I did the math wrong, and didn't realize that the 20% of cap was $14million.

It's a legal contract. Circumvents the spirit of the cap, IMO, with the huge drop off/throw away years, but with what else the league has let go, they aren't going to twitch at this one.

I do find it interesting that a big part of what owners want is to put an end to these types of contracts. And that two of the owners that are seriously involved in these negotiations are Snider and Leiopold. Two of the guiltiest parties. It's just bizarre. Donald Fehr has got to just be giddy right about now.

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07-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #413
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Holmgren is a full fledged retard.

Even if the Preds don't match, he then has the absurd contracts of Bryzgalov and Weber. If the cap ever goes down slightly, he's going to be ****ed when it comes to re-signing Couterier and Schenn.

Its like the guy has no cluevon how to plan ahead. Frankly I am astonished Weber even signed it, why would anyone sign a long term deal in Philly anymore?

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07-19-2012, 10:30 AM
  #414
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Can you imagine a Weber/Pronger pairing? I know it's unlikely Pronger plays again, but still...

I think the only thing this says about Weber is that he wanted to make sure he got his big money before the new CBA prevents him from cashing in. Seems pretty reasonable to me and doesn't necessarily mean he wants out of Nashville.

What is surprising, is the rumors that Poile was trying to trade him. That might be an indication that Weber wanted out. They could also just be rumors though.

Regardless, I really don't want to see Weber in Philly.

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07-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by albatross View Post
Because I did the math wrong, and didn't realize that the 20% of cap was $14million.

It's a legal contract. Circumvents the spirit of the cap, IMO, with the huge drop off/throw away years, but with what else the league has let go, they aren't going to twitch at this one.

I do find it interesting that a big part of what owners want is to put an end to these types of contracts. And that two of the owners that are seriously involved in these negotiations are Snider and Leiopold. Two of the guiltiest parties. It's just bizarre. Donald Fehr has got to just be giddy right about now.
Its not a big drop off at all actually. 1-4-6-3-1.

The issue is the signing bonus, not salary, and there isn't anything wrong or against signing bonuses. Its just about teams having the up front cash to make it happen.

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07-19-2012, 10:37 AM
  #416
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Preds will match, or that's what strickland says

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07-19-2012, 11:10 AM
  #417
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A 14 year deal...



That will go nicely with Bryzgalov's 9 year deal and should kill any cap space they have left.

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07-19-2012, 11:19 AM
  #418
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But at the end of the day Bryzgalov is still their starting goalie...no one knows what face he'll be showing or what galaxy his mind will be in from game to game

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07-19-2012, 11:55 AM
  #419
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Signing bonuses are stupid. They should get rid of them. I'd prefer performance bonuses making a comeback.

Maybe if they want reasonable contacts, you can only have one (or no) change in salary throughout the lifetime of the contract? You won't be able to construct pyramid deals, and foolishly lock everybody up until they're 41.

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07-19-2012, 01:06 PM
  #420
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Do offer sheets get reviewed by the league once they signed? It would be funny if the league fines them a 1st round pick for attempted cap circumvention (like the Devils), and then the Preds match.

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07-19-2012, 01:46 PM
  #421
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Another good read on the subject: http://deadspin.com/5927347/shea-web...ng-masterpiece

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07-23-2012, 10:44 AM
  #422
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07-25-2012, 01:45 AM
  #423
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I'm debating whether or not to buy a ticket to one of the two NYR-TB games and wear my CBJ Rick Nash jersey.

I hate Scott Howson and wonder why he has a job.

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07-25-2012, 08:12 AM
  #424
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I'm debating whether or not to buy a ticket to one of the two NYR-TB games and wear my CBJ Rick Nash jersey.

I hate Scott Howson and wonder why he has a job.
Quit yer' crying. You knew Nash wasn't going to bring in his actual worth.

It is exceedingly rare to find a trade involving a big name player that actually has both teams fanbases coming away satisfied (at least initially).

and don't worry, you still have Umberger.

Unrelated to this, but still an interest of mine this offseason is where Jeff Finger signs. Andy Strickland has it that if he can't get a one-way deal with an NHL club, he'll look to Europe.


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07-25-2012, 01:25 PM
  #425
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Quote:
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I'm debating whether or not to buy a ticket to one of the two NYR-TB games and wear my CBJ Rick Nash jersey.

I hate Scott Howson and wonder why he has a job.
Look at the bright side it'll go good with any Indians gear you have now.

YEAH I'M STILL BITTER ABOUT MY VIZQUEL JERSEY SO WHAT

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