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Old
12-14-2011, 09:12 PM
  #226
ColonelForbin
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Stoll would look great between Ennis and Stafford. That pair seems to do best with a guy playing a simple, defensive game between them. They did great with Hecht for stretches last year.

Ideally though, they get two centers and move Roy over to LW. A Roy-Stoll-Kassian line has a lot of the same attributes that the 05-06' Roy-Drury-Grier line had. A center with face off and defensive skills and a right winger with size and physicality to compliment Roy.

Trade Boyes for Stoll and Stafford for another center to play with Vanek and Poms or on the third line.

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12-14-2011, 10:41 PM
  #227
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yea, probably why 20+ GMs passed on him in the first round.
Ennis for Ryan O Reilly, then

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Old
12-14-2011, 10:54 PM
  #228
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Ennis for Ryan O Reilly, then
No chance in hell Colorado does it.

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12-14-2011, 11:07 PM
  #229
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No chance in hell Colorado does it.
You missed it.

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Old
12-15-2011, 03:10 PM
  #230
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Free Eric Staal from the sinking canes ship. What would you give up for him?

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12-15-2011, 03:13 PM
  #231
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Free Eric Staal from the sinking canes ship. What would you give up for him?
GM qouted as saying no chance in hell they trade him.

Sadly, I believe him.

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12-15-2011, 03:16 PM
  #232
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GM qouted as saying no chance in hell they trade him.

Sadly, I believe him.
I don't see them shopping him, nah - but everyone can be had for the right price. I think we could offer up a nice package, prospects picks and roster players ready to play now. Cap concerns are the only big hesitation factor for me.

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12-15-2011, 03:17 PM
  #233
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Free Eric Staal from the sinking canes ship. What would you give up for him?
Stafford, Ennis, McNabb, 1st + Boyes as the salary dump

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Old
12-15-2011, 03:21 PM
  #234
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Stafford, Ennis, McNabb, 1st + Boyes as the salary dump


I laugh because, out of that package, the only one I'm truly missing if gone is McNabb. Truly a flavor of the week thing, but ****, he has looked great thus far

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12-15-2011, 04:07 PM
  #235
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Stafford, Ennis, McNabb, 1st + Boyes as the salary dump
That's a damn good package for a rebuilding team.

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Old
12-15-2011, 04:08 PM
  #236
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That's a damn good package for a rebuilding team.
It is. It would be tough to pass up on that if you're Carolina IMO.

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12-15-2011, 04:10 PM
  #237
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I wonder if that could pry Getzlaf instead. I'd much rather have him over Staal.

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Old
12-15-2011, 09:25 PM
  #238
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Something around Sekera for Brayden Schenn?

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12-15-2011, 10:19 PM
  #239
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Something around Sekera for Brayden Schenn?
Well that's not gonna happen.

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Old
12-15-2011, 10:34 PM
  #240
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YEA, the guy who when removed from being relied on as a top 6 producer was able to succeed as a 3rd line option.

Is that what you are expecting Ennis to be? A deeply flawed, expendable, depth scorer?
To be fair that only happened after Max broke his wrist and had groin issues. He was never the same player.

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Old
12-16-2011, 12:09 AM
  #241
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Brown's physical game is also somewhat overrated since he dropped weight to improve his offensive game. It paid off during his 30 goal season, but since then, he hasn't been able to get back to that level offensively.

Edit- not that he wouldn't immediately be our most physical top six forward, but he's not in the mold of Lucic, Morrow or Clowe.

Huh?

05-06 --> 79gms 175 hits (13th in NHL)
06-07 --> 81gms 258 hits (2nd)
07-08 --> 78gms 311 hits (1st)
08-09 --> 80gms 285 hits (3rd)
09-10 --> 82gms 287 hits (2nd)
10-11 --> 82gms 300 hits (3rd)
11-12 --> 31gms 96 hits (5th)

He has 1712 hits in 513 games post lockout, an average of 3.3 per game. Roughly a 270 hit per season average. He is currently on pace for 250+hits. Thats pretty damn physical if you ask me. For a top 6 forward thats an amzing level of physicality and dwarfs anything our top 6 can do. hell it dwarfs any player on our team besides Kaleta

The amazing thing is he has only missed 10gms post lockout playing that physical.


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And Stafford's is somewhat underrated, IMO. At last check, he had more hits than every forward not named Gaustad or Kaleta--not that I think the hits stat means all that much, but Drew's not out there stick-checking and avoiding contact.
He may not avoid contact but he rarely initiates it or finishes his checks. He has been credited with 323 career hits in 354 games (.9 hit per game). Stafford is what he is. A finesse forward with size. He will use his size to get to the net to score but primarily relies on speed and skating to create offense. He in no way imposes himself physically on the other team.

Kassian, Tropp, McCormick and Gerbe have more hits per game than Stafford. That puts Stafford at 7th among Sabre forwards in hits not 3rd.


Stafford doesn't even belong in the same discussion as Brown when it comes to physical play. Brown is FAR more physical than Stafford. Its not even close.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-16-2011 at 02:07 AM.
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Old
12-16-2011, 01:47 AM
  #242
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Ask the Kings fan who came in the other thread and said he might be moved in a shakeup.

Player A (Brown): 146 G in 543 games (.269 goals/game); 320 pts in 543 games (.589 pts/game)
Player B (Stafford): 99 G in 346 games (.286 goals/game); 211 pts in 346 games (.609 pts/game)


Now guess who Player A is and guess who Player B is?

If LA did this, it'd be to shake up their club. Realistically, Kopitar should be the captain of that team. One could even make an argument for Doughty. Lombardi is clearly displeased with their players. If you don't believe me, see his comment yesterday about how he had to make the coaching change but this is on the players.

Brown played in 31gms prelockout as an 18 year old rookie in 03-04 getting 10mins a night. He had 1g 4a 5pts in those 31gms. Those games are the only thing that drags Brown's stats below Stafford's. Its misleading to include them.

Post lockout Brown without those 31gms: 145g in 512gms (.283 gpg) and 315pts in 512gms (.615 ppg)

Suddenly Brown's numbers look just like Stafford's: 99 G in 346 games (.286 goals/game); 211 pts in 346 games (.609 pts/game)



But lets further break things down. Lets take a look at the previous 4 years for these two and this year.

Brown

07-08 ---> 78gms 33g 27a 60pts (311 hits)
08-09 ---> 80gms 24g 29a 53pts (285 hits)
09-10 ---> 82gms 24g 32a 56pts (287 hits)
10-11 ---> 82gms 28g 29a 57pts (300 hits)

11-12 ---> 30gms 5g 10a 15pts (96 hits)


Stafford

07-08 ---> 64gms 16g 22a 38pts (62 hits)
08-09 ---> 79gms 20g 25a 45pts (80 hits)
09-10 ---> 71gms 14g 20a 34pts (59 hits)
10-11 ---> 62gms 31g 21a 52pts (53 hits)

11-12 ---> 29gms 5g 10a 15pts (32 hits)


Awfully hard to argue Stafford is the better offensive player unless you're going off one season. If anything Stafford is a mystery offensively. Who is he? The guy from 07-08 though 09-10? The guy from last season? Or something in between?

Quote:
I'm not sure LA does a Stafford+ for Brown deal, either, but don't act like it's preposterous just because Stafford is a scapegoat around here
They may trade Brown for a package that includes Stafford but it may take adding more than you seem willing to admit.




Brown has proven to be a reliable top 6 winger offensively. He is has been good for 24-33 goals and 53-60pts the last 4 years. All while being a league leader in hits (top 3 all 4 years).

Stafford is a giant wildcard offensively. In 3 straight seasons from 07-08 to 09-10 he was a 16-20g 39-48pt winger. Then he exploded last year in 62gms 31g 21a 52pts (a 41g 69pt pace). A jump of roughly 20+g and 20+pts from his best totals or pace in either category. He is currently on pace for 14g 42pts. Which is pretty close to the numbers he put up from 07-08 to 09-10. Brown is also on pace for roughly the same season totals as Stafford. The difference though is Brown hasn't put numbers like that up in over 4 years. So its safe to say he is having an off year. Stafford could just be having a bad year as well. Or last year could be a fluke and he is really the player we saw the 3 season prior to the last one. Or maybe the answer lies somewhere in between. Its too soon to say. But until Stafford proves last year wasn't a fluke. I think its hard to argue he is the better player offensively just yet.

The bottom line

Brown is the more consistant and proven top 6 offensive winger of the two and is more durable. He also is far more physical and is the Kings captain. Add in the fact that he makes roughly 1mil a year less than Stafford and it would be awfully hard to pry him out of LA without a very strong package beyond Stafford. It may take Ennis. Then its a matter of whether or not its worth overpaying for him.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-16-2011 at 02:23 AM.
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Old
12-16-2011, 02:55 AM
  #243
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We don't need Brown. We need Getzlaf.

Ennis, Stafford, Roy, 1st 12 and 1st 13 for Getzlaf and a salary dump.

Huge overpayment but Getzlaf is absolutely worth it.

Then I would trade for Nielsen, Brassard or Bailey.

A package of Boyes or Leopold, Grags and a 3rd should get it done.

After that trades were looking at the following roster without touching our defense and prospects:

Vanek - Getzlaf - Pomineville
Leino - Adam - Kassian
Hecht - Nielsen* - Tropp
Gerbe - Gaustad - Kaleta
McCormick

Regehr - Myers
Erhoff - Leopold
Sekera - Weber
McNabb, Brennan, Finley

Miller
Enroth

Prospects: Foligno, Armia, Sundher, Cantenacci, pysyk, Leduc.. .

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Old
12-16-2011, 02:55 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Brown played in 31gms prelockout as an 18 year old rookie in 03-04 getting 10mins a night. He had 1g 4a 5pts in those 31gms. Those games are the only thing that drags Brown's stats below Stafford's. Its misleading to include them.

Post lockout Brown without those 31gms: 145g in 512gms (.283 gpg) and 315pts in 512gms (.615 ppg)

Suddenly Brown's numbers look just like Stafford's: 99 G in 346 games (.286 goals/game); 211 pts in 346 games (.609 pts/game)



But lets further break things down. Lets take a look at the previous 4 years for these two and this year.

Brown

07-08 ---> 78gms 33g 27a 60pts (311 hits)
08-09 ---> 80gms 24g 29a 53pts (285 hits)
09-10 ---> 82gms 24g 32a 56pts (287 hits)
10-11 ---> 82gms 28g 29a 57pts (300 hits)

11-12 ---> 30gms 5g 10a 15pts (96 hits)


Stafford

07-08 ---> 64gms 16g 22a 38pts (62 hits)
08-09 ---> 79gms 20g 25a 45pts (80 hits)
09-10 ---> 71gms 14g 20a 34pts (59 hits)
10-11 ---> 62gms 31g 21a 52pts (53 hits)

11-12 ---> 29gms 5g 10a 15pts (32 hits)


Awfully hard to argue Stafford is the better offensive player unless you're going off one season. If anything Stafford is a mystery offensively. Who is he? The guy from 07-08 though 09-10? The guy from last season? Or something in between?



They may trade Brown for a package that includes Stafford but it may take adding more than you seem willing to admit.




Brown has proven to be a reliable top 6 winger offensively. He is has been good for 24-33 goals and 53-60pts the last 4 years. All while being a league leader in hits (top 3 all 4 years).

Stafford is a giant wildcard offensively. In 3 straight seasons from 07-08 to 09-10 he was a 16-20g 39-48pt winger. Then he exploded last year in 62gms 31g 21a 52pts (a 41g 69pt pace). A jump of roughly 20+g and 20+pts from his best totals or pace in either category. He is currently on pace for 14g 42pts. Which is pretty close to the numbers he put up from 07-08 to 09-10. Brown is also on pace for roughly the same season totals as Stafford. The difference though is Brown hasn't put numbers like that up in over 4 years. So its safe to say he is having an off year. Stafford could just be having a bad year as well. Or last year could be a fluke and he is really the player we saw the 3 season prior to the last one. Or maybe the answer lies somewhere in between. Its too soon to say. But until Stafford proves last year wasn't a fluke. I think its hard to argue he is the better player offensively just yet.

The bottom line

Brown is the more consistant and proven top 6 offensive winger of the two and is more durable. He also is far more physical and is the Kings captain. Add in the fact that he makes roughly 1mil a year less than Stafford and it would be awfully hard to pry him out of LA without a very strong package beyond Stafford. It may take Ennis. Then its a matter of whether or not its worth overpaying for him.
Absolutely I overpay. Not much more to add as you have said it all.

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Old
12-16-2011, 06:08 AM
  #245
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Stoll would look great between Ennis and Stafford. That pair seems to do best with a guy playing a simple, defensive game between them. They did great with Hecht for stretches last year.

Ideally though, they get two centers and move Roy over to LW. A Roy-Stoll-Kassian line has a lot of the same attributes that the 05-06' Roy-Drury-Grier line had. A center with face off and defensive skills and a right winger with size and physicality to compliment Roy.

Trade Boyes for Stoll and Stafford for another center to play with Vanek and Poms or on the third line.
Why does LA trade a UFA-to-be Center for a UFA-to-be winger?

At this point, if they move Stoll, it will likely be for a pick or a young player that will be around past this season.

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12-16-2011, 06:09 AM
  #246
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Does brown play wing or center is the question.

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12-16-2011, 06:13 AM
  #247
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We don't need Brown. We need Getzlaf.

Ennis, Stafford, Roy, 1st 12 and 1st 13 for Getzlaf and a salary dump.

Huge overpayment but Getzlaf is absolutely worth it.
The only thing that worries me about that deal is giving up 2 1st rounders.

I'd probably do it anyway. But, that part would give me pause.

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Then I would trade for Nielsen, Brassard or Bailey.

A package of Boyes or Leopold, Grags and a 3rd should get it done.
Holy overpayment.

Nielsen is a UFA-to-be 3rd line center and you are giving up a top 4 defenseman with an OK contract who is signed through next season (Leopold), a young 3rd pairing PP specialist D (Gragnani), and a 3rd?

I'd just offer up one of the two 2nds in 2012 that the Sabres have for Nielsen or Gragnani and a 3rd.

There is no need to move Leopold to rent Nielsen.

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12-16-2011, 06:15 AM
  #248
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Does brown play wing or center is the question.
Brown is a RW, like Stafford.

Getting Brown is basically upgrading over Stafford. Nothing more, nothing less.

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12-16-2011, 06:16 AM
  #249
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Yeah, if Brown is a winger I don't over pay for him. Its just not neccisarry. If I'm going to over pay for a player, its going to be a center. We are fine on wingers for now, probably better then fine with the addition of a couple of centers.

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12-16-2011, 06:22 AM
  #250
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Holy overpayment.

Nielsen is a UFA-to-be 3rd line center and you are giving up a top 4 defenseman with an OK contract who is signed through next season (Leopold), a young 3rd pairing PP specialist D (Gragnani), and a 3rd?

I'd just offer up one of the two 2nds in 2012 that the Sabres have for Nielsen or Gragnani and a 3rd.

There is no need to move Leopold to rent Nielsen.
I`ve to agree.

What I wanted to say was that any kind of deal including one of Grags, Boyes or our third rounder I'd do in a heartbeat for nielsen or brassard.

For leopold they would probably have t add a bit.

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