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Old
12-14-2011, 12:51 PM
  #201
Zip15
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Because Boyes + Stafford + prospect/pick can't get you Stoll and Brown...

Ennis isn't important, he's the window dressing...

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12-14-2011, 12:53 PM
  #202
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agreed

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12-14-2011, 12:53 PM
  #203
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I think the point is that you don't really need to add Ennis to Stafford to get that deal done. No point in voluntarily losing a deal just to get it done when it can get done for less.

While I'm not averse to moving Ennis, I think he's too often getting lumped in with a lot of players. I also think he provides several things that others don't, like being able to take the zone with speed. His ceiling is higher than most of our forwards not named Vanek. I'm not ready to sell him off willy-nilly. Given age, production, and contract, he's one of our most valuable trade chips, and I think we'd be underselling him in such a deal.
Sorry, I was unaware that Zip's trade value logic was approved by Dean Lombardi


I know you think your stat comparison makes Brown and Stafford equivalents in trade value... sorry, in my opinion it does not.

I also think Boyes has about half the trade value as Stoll.

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12-14-2011, 12:57 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by JPurp26 View Post
agreed
Max Afinogenov

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:09 PM
  #205
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I think you're both right. I think Brown has plateaued/sunk into complacency and that Stafford has a real claim for being best player in the deal. While I'd agree that Stafford + Boyes isn't enough to get Brown and Stoll, largely because Stoll is still a key defensive forward for that team, especially with Richards out, I don't think the difference is Ennis.

I said it earlier, but the piece to add in this deal is Gaustad.

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12-14-2011, 01:20 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I think you're both right. I think Brown has plateaued/sunk into complacency and that Stafford has a real claim for being best player in the deal. While I'd agree that Stafford + Boyes isn't enough to get Brown and Stoll, largely because Stoll is still a key defensive forward for that team, especially with Richards out, I don't think the difference is Ennis.

I said it earlier, but the piece to add in this deal is Gaustad.
Ennis is the incentive.
Otherwise, LA trading the captain in a largely lateral move AT BEST, is beyond absurd.

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:27 PM
  #207
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Max Afinogenov
The guy who was PPG from 05-07? He had his problems but damn.

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:27 PM
  #208
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I don't think Brown is worth that kind of overpayment. Kings fans have been questioning the guy's leadership for going on three years now. I think Stafford is already the best player in the deal and because of LA's center situation, has a significantly higher rebound potential.

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12-14-2011, 01:45 PM
  #209
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The guy who was PPG from 05-07? He had his problems but damn.
YEA, the guy who when removed from being relied on as a top 6 producer was able to succeed as a 3rd line option.

Is that what you are expecting Ennis to be? A deeply flawed, expendable, depth scorer?

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12-14-2011, 01:46 PM
  #210
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YEA, the guy who when removed from being relied on as a top 6 producer was able to succeed as a 3rd line option.

Is that what you are expecting Ennis to be? A deeply flawed, expendable, depth scorer?
He (and his line) carried the team for stretches in the 05-06 season. Saying otherwise just isn't accurate. And what I'm saying is Ennis has the talent to be PPG with the right situation around him. Jettisoning him for a physical player who's about as proficient in scoring as Ennis' rookie year totals is a little impatient.

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12-14-2011, 01:51 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
He (and his line) carried the team for stretches in the 05-06 season. Saying otherwise just isn't accurate. And what I'm saying is Ennis has the talent to be PPG with the right situation around him. Jettisoning him for a physical player who's about as proficient in scoring as Ennis' rookie year totals is a little impatient.
Do you think scoring has been this team's issue over the last 4+ seasons?

I don't... I think a lack of players like Dustin Brown and Jarret Stoll is this team's issue.

less flash and puss, is not going to be missed

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Old
12-14-2011, 01:54 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
He (and his line) carried the team for stretches in the 05-06 season. Saying otherwise just isn't accurate. And what I'm saying is Ennis has the talent to be PPG with the right situation around him. Jettisoning him for a physical player who's about as proficient in scoring as Ennis' rookie year totals is a little impatient.

you could make that point with A LOT of forwards.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:01 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Do you think scoring has been this team's issue over the last 4+ seasons?

I don't... I think a lack of players like Dustin Brown and Jarret Stoll is this team's issue.

less flash and puss, is not going to be missed
Puss? Really? Ignoring the misogyny behind the word choice, painting Ennis as a "puss" because of his size ignores the fact that last season he didn't shy away from receiving contact along the boards. He's not out to knock guys down, but the league's high-end offensive forwards often don't. That's the role I see him developing into. For christ's sake, there's a Ryan Malone available every offseason. Just go with one of those if you need the bloodlust sated (or coach up your newly re-signed "power forward" but that's another mess entirely).

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:05 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Ryan Ellis Problems View Post
Puss? Really? Ignoring the misogyny behind the word choice, painting Ennis as a "puss" because of his size ignores the fact that last season he didn't shy away from receiving contact along the boards. He's not out to knock guys down, but the league's high-end offensive forwards often don't. That's the role I see him developing into. For christ's sake, there's a Ryan Malone available every offseason. Just go with one of those if you need the bloodlust sated (or coach up your newly re-signed "power forward" but that's another mess entirely).
blame Charles Perrault...



And after the market forces us to pay what he hasn't earned yet next year as a RFA... there won't be much left over for those stupid guys who actually contribute to winning playoff games.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:12 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'd honestly throw Ennis in to make that deal happen...
If it comes to that, I don't know if Regier has the balls to make the move. I'd rather they keep Tyler if they can, since I still see more Briere and less Afinogenov in his game than you do. But if they have to kick in something to push the deal forward, rather than putting Kassian in, it might have to be something like Ennis or Armia. The Kings bled prospects with the Penner and Richards moves, so they're going to want young NHLers or hot prospect forwards.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:17 PM
  #216
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If it comes to that, I don't know if Regier has the balls to make the move. I'd rather they keep Tyler if they can, since I still see more Briere and less Afinogenov in his game than you do. But if they have to kick in something to push the deal forward, rather than putting Kassian in, it might have to be something like Ennis or Armia. The Kings bled prospects with the Penner and Richards moves, so they're going to want young NHLers or hot prospect forwards.
yea, no way Im putting Kassian in any deal that's not returning a super star 1st liner....

I think seeing Ennis as having a Briere ceiling is fair... i don't think he'll reach it, but it's a fair high end hope.

In that proposed deal, we'd have the cap space to re-sign Stoll too...

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12-14-2011, 02:20 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Sorry, I was unaware that Zip's trade value logic was approved by Dean Lombardi


I know you think your stat comparison makes Brown and Stafford equivalents in trade value... sorry, in my opinion it does not.

Except I said nothing of the sort. I said Brown is better all-around, and thus Buffalo would have to add. That said, the difference between Brown and Stafford is not a 22 year-old, second-year player who scored 50 points as a rookie at age 21. It's a Cap World, and you have to exploit the value of players who are under your control and whose costs you can keep down. And if Lombardi demands Ennis + Stafford, **** him.

And yes, for all the **** he catches, Stafford is the more productive player of the two. That's not an opinion. You're romanticizing Dustin Brown's abilities and traits. He's not the player he was when he came on the scene, and his physicality is being vastly overrated right now. If Roy's not a leader because, at least in part, he dives, what's that make Dustin Brown, arguably the biggest diver in the league?

LA has won precisely the same amount with Brown as Buffalo has with Stafford: nothing.

Quote:
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I also think Boyes has about half the trade value as Stoll.
Half? Seriously? I can't even talk with you about player values anymore.

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Old
12-14-2011, 02:20 PM
  #218
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I don't see the Kings moving a "core guy" like Brown.

Just like Washington, Carolina, and Anaheim, they hit the eject button on their coach to try and wake the team up.

I doubt you'll see those teams moving on to a major shake up deal mid-season. If one team did, I'm guessing it's the Caps where GMGM is much more aggressive, likely because their owner is really engaged and where they think they should be serious contenders this season.

If the Kings put Brown on the block, I'm guessing it will be during the offseason.

And while Kings fans don't like his leadership style, I like how he plays the game as he's still top 5 in the NHL in hits.

I also doubt whether the Sabres have the pieces that the Kings would want back outside of maybe Roy for Brown which doesn't help the Sabres issues at center.

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Old
12-14-2011, 04:22 PM
  #219
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And after the market forces us to pay what he hasn't earned yet next year as a RFA... there won't be much left over for those stupid guys who actually contribute to winning playoff games.
Like Rob Neids or McCormick last year? Their 2.5 million in salary is crippling . Also Ennis has put up 8 points in his 13 playoff games. Not elite but hardly not "actually contributing."

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12-14-2011, 07:20 PM
  #220
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Max Afinogenov
This is your opinion. This is very far from fact. And I'm very certain that NHL GMs would disagree with you.

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12-14-2011, 08:36 PM
  #221
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Ennis is the incentive.
Otherwise, LA trading the captain in a largely lateral move AT BEST, is beyond absurd.
Adding Ennis is huge overpayment.

I live in LA and watch the Kings a lot (although they've been pretty tough to watch this year). I like Brown and Stoll, but you are romanticizing how good they are. Brown is a good hitter and both guys are "sturdy," but they are definitely not the answer.

Brown gets 20 minutes TOI per game, including 4 minutes of PP time. He plays on the top line with Anze Kopitar. And in 30 games, he's got 5 goals (3 on the PP) and 10 assists. He's hit 60 points once in his career. Mostly, he hits.

Stoll's got 2+6=8 points in 30 games. Yeah, he's a good FO guy, but you're giving up a lot of offense. Stoll hasn't broken 50 points in 6 years. In fact, he's only broken 45 points twice in his career.

I like both players, but I don't like that deal. I'd rather put together a big bundle for one superstar center - like Eric Staal. Hell, I'd even take Jordan Staal.

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12-14-2011, 08:53 PM
  #222
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Adding Ennis is huge overpayment.

I live in LA and watch the Kings a lot (although they've been pretty tough to watch this year). I like Brown and Stoll, but you are romanticizing how good they are. Brown is a good hitter and both guys are "sturdy," but they are definitely not the answer.

Brown gets 20 minutes TOI per game, including 4 minutes of PP time. He plays on the top line with Anze Kopitar. And in 30 games, he's got 5 goals (3 on the PP) and 10 assists. He's hit 60 points once in his career. Mostly, he hits.

Stoll's got 2+6=8 points in 30 games. Yeah, he's a good FO guy, but you're giving up a lot of offense. Stoll hasn't broken 50 points in 6 years. In fact, he's only broken 45 points twice in his career.

I like both players, but I don't like that deal. I'd rather put together a big bundle for one superstar center - like Eric Staal. Hell, I'd even take Jordan Staal.
agreed

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Old
12-14-2011, 09:02 PM
  #223
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Except I said nothing of the sort. I said Brown is better all-around, and thus Buffalo would have to add. That said, the difference between Brown and Stafford is not a 22 year-old, second-year player who scored 50 points as a rookie at age 21. It's a Cap World, and you have to exploit the value of players who are under your control and whose costs you can keep down. And if Lombardi demands Ennis + Stafford, **** him.

And yes, for all the **** he catches, Stafford is the more productive player of the two. That's not an opinion. You're romanticizing Dustin Brown's abilities and traits. He's not the player he was when he came on the scene, and his physicality is being vastly overrated right now. If Roy's not a leader because, at least in part, he dives, what's that make Dustin Brown, arguably the biggest diver in the league?

LA has won precisely the same amount with Brown as Buffalo has with Stafford: nothing.



Half? Seriously? I can't even talk with you about player values anymore.
you value Ennis more then I do... we can revisit that in 3 years... if I was a GM, and had Ennis on my roster, I'd love to fleece you for him

Boyes was worth a 2nd rounder LAST year, with another year on his deal... he's worth less now. What type of players do teams want right now? They are looking for guys like Stoll...everyone has there own useless depth scoring Brad Boyes types

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12-14-2011, 09:04 PM
  #224
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This is your opinion. This is very far from fact. And I'm very certain that NHL GMs would disagree with you.
yea, probably why 20+ GMs passed on him in the first round.

not sure why you would be "very certain" about something like that...

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12-14-2011, 09:11 PM
  #225
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Adding Ennis is huge overpayment.

I live in LA and watch the Kings a lot (although they've been pretty tough to watch this year). I like Brown and Stoll, but you are romanticizing how good they are. Brown is a good hitter and both guys are "sturdy," but they are definitely not the answer.

Brown gets 20 minutes TOI per game, including 4 minutes of PP time. He plays on the top line with Anze Kopitar. And in 30 games, he's got 5 goals (3 on the PP) and 10 assists. He's hit 60 points once in his career. Mostly, he hits.

Stoll's got 2+6=8 points in 30 games. Yeah, he's a good FO guy, but you're giving up a lot of offense. Stoll hasn't broken 50 points in 6 years. In fact, he's only broken 45 points twice in his career.

I like both players, but I don't like that deal. I'd rather put together a big bundle for one superstar center - like Eric Staal. Hell, I'd even take Jordan Staal.
Agreed,

I live on the West Coast and see the Kings every now and then...once a week on Center Ice...and I think you summed it up perfectly.

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