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Old
11-30-2011, 10:45 AM
  #26
punkr0x
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Originally Posted by Buffalo87 View Post
He is TERRIBLE defensively. And given the amount of opportunities he's afforded on the power-play, I would expect him to be able to set up somebody every once in a while regardless of his effectiveness.

+/- is a garbage stat, he's fed baby minutes and it's a stat highly influenced by luck. One guy could make a mistake and all 5 on the ice get a minus. Junk.
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.

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11-30-2011, 10:47 AM
  #27
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Watch the 5 on 3 from last night and tell me you still think he deserves the minutes he's getting.

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11-30-2011, 10:56 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
No he doesn't

There's 20+ games of evidence that he is terrible defensively and weaker then Tim Kennedy...

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11-30-2011, 11:00 AM
  #29
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Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
That's not going to go away, is it?

I've never seen such a small amount of points amplify a player so much.

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11-30-2011, 11:17 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
No evidence? Turn on your teevee. He's a defensive train wreck almost all the of time. He looks like me, and I suck.

EDIT: You know who else had a great early career in Buffalo?

Chris Butler.

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11-30-2011, 11:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
It's only one clip, but here's the first goal that columbus scored. and there's grags, not playing defense and allowing his man to skate around him to chip in a rebound.

http://video.sabres.nhl.com/videocen...2,321&fr=false

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11-30-2011, 11:18 AM
  #32
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Ehrhoff, Sekera, and Myers are so much better defensively that comparing them to Grags is pointless (and no, +/- is NOT a measure of defensive acumen, it is the most worthless stat in all of hockey. Vanek was not a defensive machine when he led the league in +/-). For Gragnani to be proving his worth as a one-dimensional offensive player, he should be better than that. Plus, throw in his hesitance offensively, his refusal to shoot, and his knack for making boneheaded decisions...

Gragnani needs to spend a lot of time in the press box with Teppo. Assuming Leopold is out, I'd roll:

Sekera-Ehrhoff
Regehr-McNabb
Brennan-Schiestel/Finley (whichever one would get the callup)
Gragnani
(note Morrisonn is not an option because he'd need to be an emergency callup, which means a healthy Gragnani can't be scratched)

But it's never going to happen.
This ^^^^

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11-30-2011, 11:35 AM
  #33
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Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
Are you a relative of Mr. Gragnani or what???


Last night was probably a turning point for me. I was kinda mad at him for not playing up to his potential after his promising playoff performance. But I won't blame him anymore. He is just not good enough.
Actually it looks like he is regressing. His play right now reminds me of the first games he spent with the Sabres as a callup...... it's quite the same: the game looks too fast and too hard for him.

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11-30-2011, 11:41 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
Lindy, is that you?


Your first sentence proved my point on +/-, so we can discard that statistic.

All I see is a piece easily replaceable on the power-play and an absolute wreck in his own end. Do you know how many guys have won the Eddy Shore award and amounted to absolutely nothing in the NHL? His accomplishments in the AHL or before mean nothing to me. He has proven he can be a very, very good player in the AHL but to suggest that any of his accomplishments before the NHL somehow should earn him a longer leash is bogus. All we have, essentially, is a good 7 game sample size and has not been good since.

I'm not going to search through every goal he's been on the ice for to post videos of his defensive ineptitude. Watching a few games should be enough to witness that.

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11-30-2011, 11:47 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
Don't be a hit and run poster .... Respond to the rebuttals .... We would love to read why Gragnani is so solid.

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11-30-2011, 12:28 PM
  #36
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He's been god awful. I figured that he wasn't being benched because of how well he played during the playoffs, but that time is long over and he needs to sit so someone like Weber or even Shaone Morrison can get a chance to play.

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11-30-2011, 12:35 PM
  #37
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Watch the 5 on 3 from last night and tell me you still think he deserves the minutes he's getting.
Tell me anybody on that 5-on-3 deserves 20 minutes a game. They were all bad, I don't see how Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew that.
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Originally Posted by jame
There's 20+ games of evidence that he is terrible defensively and weaker then Tim Kennedy...
Robyn Regehr was pretty bad his second year in the league. Cody McCormick was pretty bad his four years in Colorado. Remember Ryan Miller's first few call ups to Buffalo?
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Originally Posted by myllz
That's not going to go away, is it?

I've never seen such a small amount of points amplify a player so much.
The same way I can't base my entire assessment of him on 7 games, you can't base everything on 20 games. I don't think he's been that bad, but even if he has been terrible, it's 20 games into his rookie season.
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Do you know how many guys have won the Eddy Shore award and amounted to absolutely nothing in the NHL? His accomplishments in the AHL or before mean nothing to me.
Fair enough, but the only way coaches can judge a player is by his junior and minor league career. Who would you take a chance on, a guy who was named AHL defenseman of the year, or a guy who was a mediocre AHL defenseman? I don't know who we've got in our system who has any better potential to become a PP quarterback type than MAG.

I think it should also be mentioned that all the injuries have pushed up Gragnani's minutes. In October his ice time was much lower. Last night Leopold got hurt and didn't finish the game. With Myers and Leopold out, who else do you put on the point?

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11-30-2011, 12:38 PM
  #38
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The same way I can't base my entire assessment of him on 7 games, you can't base everything on 20 games. I don't think he's been that bad, but even if he has been terrible, it's 20 games into his rookie season.
That's fair, but what in these 20 games has he done to continue playing? He has been awful in every aspect of the game. Generally with a player you'll find some kind of reason for him to continue being here, something he can build off of. He has shown absolutely nothing. You can't continue to play a guy because he MIGHT turn into a decent player. That's just awful management.

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I think it should also be mentioned that all the injuries have pushed up Gragnani's minutes. In October his ice time was much lower. Last night Leopold got hurt and didn't finish the game. With Myers and Leopold out, who else do you put on the point?
Sekera.

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11-30-2011, 12:46 PM
  #39
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MAG does have a pretty solid first pass and he will look to go tape-to-tape on exits. He looked great doing that against the Caps. He is struggling with a lot of things though - shot selection and accuracy as it seems him putting the puck on net like he was doing late last year has been replaced with trying to shoot it through everyone on those rare opportunities he takes to shoot or just moving it again. He's got a lot of the same issues I see with the rest of the team -- not crisp on his passing, soft on the wall, not engaged with his check low. He's not the only one.

That said, he has to be better than he has been. He's doing nothing with urgency or that anyone could describe as "hard". Get envolved, turn the puck and get moving. They have Myers and Weber out long-term, Leo for who knows how long, and Regehr playing with some sort of dent. Gragnani needs to step it up.

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11-30-2011, 01:00 PM
  #40
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Tell me anybody on that 5-on-3 deserves 20 minutes a game. They were all bad, I don't see how Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew that.

Robyn Regehr was pretty bad his second year in the league. Cody McCormick was pretty bad his four years in Colorado. Remember Ryan Miller's first few call ups to Buffalo?

The same way I can't base my entire assessment of him on 7 games, you can't base everything on 20 games. I don't think he's been that bad, but even if he has been terrible, it's 20 games into his rookie season.

Fair enough, but the only way coaches can judge a player is by his junior and minor league career. Who would you take a chance on, a guy who was named AHL defenseman of the year, or a guy who was a mediocre AHL defenseman? I don't know who we've got in our system who has any better potential to become a PP quarterback type than MAG.

I think it should also be mentioned that all the injuries have pushed up Gragnani's minutes. In October his ice time was much lower. Last night Leopold got hurt and didn't finish the game. With Myers and Leopold out, who else do you put on the point?
His ES minutes have gone up. But Grags was the #1 dman in average PP ice time from the start of the year up until a few games ago (Ehrhoff passed him but only by 4 seconds per game). He has been force fed a ton of PP mintues since the start of the year. He has not been the catalyst he was expected to be on the PP. I could live with his ES play if he was getting it done on the PP.

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11-30-2011, 01:10 PM
  #41
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Tell me anybody on that 5-on-3 deserves 20 minutes a game. They were all bad, I don't see how Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew that.
Vanek, Pominville and Ehrhoff.

Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew it because his positioning prevented the whole unit from moving the puck effectively and getting the Islanders penalty killers out of position. The first four times Ehrhoff moved the puck to Grags, Nielsen didn't even make an attempt to cover MAG's shot and Grags still didn't attempt to get the puck to the net. Despite a wide open lane. On a 5 on 3. Down a goal. Late in the third.

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11-30-2011, 01:20 PM
  #42
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Regehr was on the ice for both Islanders goals last night. Gragnani was on the ice for neither, yet somehow he is blamed in the loss? It just seems like people are looking for a reason to bench Gragnani when he has not been a problem. Guys like Stafford, Roy, and Leino not scoring are the reason the Sabres are losing to bad teams. Here's a guy who was named best defenseman in the AHL last year, came in to the NHL at the end of the year and put up 7 points in 7 playoff games; he has the potential to be a great player for us. And yet most fans want to see him gone after 20 games because of vague reason like, "he can't play defense" without any evidence to back it up.
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Tell me anybody on that 5-on-3 deserves 20 minutes a game. They were all bad, I don't see how Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew that.

Robyn Regehr was pretty bad his second year in the league. Cody McCormick was pretty bad his four years in Colorado. Remember Ryan Miller's first few call ups to Buffalo?

The same way I can't base my entire assessment of him on 7 games, you can't base everything on 20 games. I don't think he's been that bad, but even if he has been terrible, it's 20 games into his rookie season.

Fair enough, but the only way coaches can judge a player is by his junior and minor league career. Who would you take a chance on, a guy who was named AHL defenseman of the year, or a guy who was a mediocre AHL defenseman? I don't know who we've got in our system who has any better potential to become a PP quarterback type than MAG.

I think it should also be mentioned that all the injuries have pushed up Gragnani's minutes. In October his ice time was much lower. Last night Leopold got hurt and didn't finish the game. With Myers and Leopold out, who else do you put on the point?
Yeah and guess what that means almost nothing. Wanna know who was named the best AHL dman in 05-06? Andy Delmore. Sheldon Brookbank won it in 06-07. Andrew Hutchinson won it in 07-08. In 09-10 Danny Groulx won it, and he's currently 30 and playing in the KHL. Those guys are all great NHLers right?

The only decent NHL dmen to win it in the last few years were Johnny Boychuk in 08-09, and Niklas Kronwall in 04-05. Other than those two there are very few guys who have won the Eddie Shore Award, and have become solid NHLers.

Go compare Enroth and David Leggio's AHL stats from last season. Guess what? Leggio's are better, want to call him up to replace Enroth?

If you want to see further examples of how little AHL awards mean in whether or not a player's game will translate to the NHL level go look at the list of past AHL MVPs. It's not exactly all that impressive either.

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11-30-2011, 01:22 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Vanek, Pominville and Ehrhoff.

Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew it because his positioning prevented the whole unit from moving the puck effectively and getting the Islanders penalty killers out of position. The first four times Ehrhoff moved the puck to Grags, Nielsen didn't even make an attempt to cover MAG's shot and Grags still didn't attempt to get the puck to the net. Despite a wide open lane. On a 5 on 3. Down a goal. Late in the third.
With the best "deflection in front of the net" guy in the league standing...RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE NET!

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11-30-2011, 01:23 PM
  #44
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Vanek, Pominville and Ehrhoff.

Gragnani gets singled out as the guy who blew it because his positioning prevented the whole unit from moving the puck effectively and getting the Islanders penalty killers out of position. The first four times Ehrhoff moved the puck to Grags, Nielsen didn't even make an attempt to cover MAG's shot and Grags still didn't attempt to get the puck to the net. Despite a wide open lane. On a 5 on 3. Down a goal. Late in the third.
I see what you're saying. I guess I interpreted it as Lindy instructing them Ehrhoff was going to take the shot, but it could also be seen as Gragnani unwilling to take the shot. Positioning and recognizing when to shoot is something that is coachable. Making nice breakout passes and a hard shot from the point are the natural abilities he possesses that should make him useful on the PP.

I just don't see it, everyone is saying he's been "awful" but he has 4 PP points and 8 points total. I'm fine with that through 22 games. Our team is above league average on the power play, I just don't see how Marc-Andre Gragnani's pretty average rookie play is costing us these games vs. some other underachieving veteran players.

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11-30-2011, 01:27 PM
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I see what you're saying. I guess I interpreted it as Lindy instructing them Ehrhoff was going to take the shot, but it could also be seen as Gragnani unwilling to take the shot. Positioning and recognizing when to shoot is something that is coachable. Making nice breakout passes and a hard shot from the point are the natural abilities he possesses that should make him useful on the PP.

I just don't see it, everyone is saying he's been "awful" but he has 4 PP points and 8 points total. I'm fine with that through 22 games. Our team is above league average on the power play, I just don't see how Marc-Andre Gragnani's pretty average rookie play is costing us these games vs. some other underachieving veteran players.
I don't think people are necessarily blaming him for our losses, but that they don't think he should even be in the lineup because his play certainly doesn't warrant him staying in. There are plenty of players out there who could be doing a hell of a lot more to help us win games playing the same minutes that joke Gragnani's getting.


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11-30-2011, 01:42 PM
  #46
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I don't think people are necessarily blaming him for our losses, but that they don't think he should even be in the lineup because his play certainly doesn't warrant him staying in. There are plenty of players out there who could be doing a hell of a lot more to help us win games playing the same minutes that joke Gragnani's getting.
I wouldn't mind seeing Weber play, but he has some pretty bad nights too. I've liked the way McNabb has played. But I don't think there's anyone in our system who is clearly passed Gragnani in their development at this stage for that 6th spot. And beyond Ehrhoff and Myers, I don't think there's anyone who is going to be able to man the point on the power play any better than him. If by "out there" you mean a trade, Darcy has put himself into a spot where that 6th d-man needs to be making Gragnani's entry level salary, so that severely limits our options.

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11-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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I wouldn't mind seeing Weber play, but he has some pretty bad nights too. I've liked the way McNabb has played. But I don't think there's anyone in our system who is clearly passed Gragnani in their development at this stage for that 6th spot. And beyond Ehrhoff and Myers, I don't think there's anyone who is going to be able to man the point on the power play any better than him. If by "out there" you mean a trade, Darcy has put himself into a spot where that 6th d-man needs to be making Gragnani's entry level salary, so that severely limits our options.
The funny thing is, some people probably wouldn't resent him that much, if he was getting the Luke-Adam-treatment -> demoted when he's not playing well, letting him earn his TOI rather than e.g. getting put on a 4-on-3 over Ehrhoff or still getting ample PP-TOI after not doing anything or getting played over Weber after games of sucking, etc.. Or if he was providing anything else rather than his non-existant offense so far. Objectively seen he's decent value as #6-7 d-man who can play regular minutes, if needed. Hate that Ruff sees something in him that I obviously don't and continues to forcefeed him opportunities.


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11-30-2011, 02:00 PM
  #48
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I'm wondering if my disdain for Gragnani has something to do with how fricking soft he is. That quality in a defensemen never appealed to me. Three hits all season! Three! He does not have the offensive game to make up for his defensive inadequacies.

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11-30-2011, 02:33 PM
  #49
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Fair enough, but the only way coaches can judge a player is by his junior and minor league career. Who would you take a chance on, a guy who was named AHL defenseman of the year, or a guy who was a mediocre AHL defenseman? I don't know who we've got in our system who has any better potential to become a PP quarterback type than MAG.
You don't know much about our pipeline of defensive prospects then....or an NHL PP, or what it takes to QB one

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11-30-2011, 02:51 PM
  #50
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You don't know much about our pipeline of defensive prospects then....or an NHL PP, or what it takes to QB one
Yeah. Who are those guys?

MAG needs to sit or get sent down. He showed promise in the playoffs last year. With that said, I was still wary of him playing big time minutes for us especially after we got Ehrhoff, I didn't even think we were going to re-sign MAG.

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