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Old
11-30-2011, 03:29 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
I see what you're saying. I guess I interpreted it as Lindy instructing them Ehrhoff was going to take the shot, but it could also be seen as Gragnani unwilling to take the shot. Positioning and recognizing when to shoot is something that is coachable. Making nice breakout passes and a hard shot from the point are the natural abilities he possesses that should make him useful on the PP.

I just don't see it, everyone is saying he's been "awful" but he has 4 PP points and 8 points total. I'm fine with that through 22 games. Our team is above league average on the power play, I just don't see how Marc-Andre Gragnani's pretty average rookie play is costing us these games vs. some other underachieving veteran players.
That puts him on pace for 29 points, which typically is OK for a rookie dman. But most rookie dmen aren't 24 years old already, they aren't QB'ing the top power play unit, and they aren't getting the ice time (PP and total) than Gragnani is getting. On top of that, most aren't as bad as he is defensively.

Sorry but a 29 point pace is not enough for me given that points is his one and only contribution to this team, that's just not enough if that's all he's going to bring as a #1 PP guy.

EDIT: And that's not me saying he's costing us games, simply that with the other options we have, it's mind boggling how Lindy won't budge on him.

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11-30-2011, 03:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You don't know much about our pipeline of defensive prospects then....or an NHL PP, or what it takes to QB one
If you're basing it off of AHL statistics, MAG is our most experienced and accomplished power play quarterback. If we're not allowed to base it on AHL statistics, we don't have much information on any of our prospects.

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11-30-2011, 03:56 PM
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You make a good point, but leave Card and Funk out of this if you want to retain any credibility. Grags is frustrating as hell right now. Still, people are talking about him as if he's our only problem. If any of our scoring forwards could score, we wouldn't be talking about MAG. I still retain naive hope that he can put up over 40 points without completely sucking.

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11-30-2011, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
You make a good point, but leave Card and Funk out of this if you want to retain any credibility. Grags is frustrating as hell right now. Still, people are talking about him as if he's our only problem. If any of our scoring forwards could score, we wouldn't be talking about MAG. I still retain naive hope that he can put up over 40 points without completely sucking.
I sure as hell would be.

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11-30-2011, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
If you're basing it off of AHL statistics, MAG is our most experienced and accomplished power play quarterback. If we're not allowed to base it on AHL statistics, we don't have much information on any of our prospects.
The AHL is where he belongs... where he can be effective.

It's quite confusing that you don't get that the AHL is inferior, and skills that "work" in that league, don't translate to the NHL.

Gragnani is a career ahl'er... someday the statistics will be there to prove it to you. for now, analysis of skills is enough to make that determination

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11-30-2011, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
If you're basing it off of AHL statistics, MAG is our most experienced and accomplished power play quarterback. If we're not allowed to base it on AHL statistics, we don't have much information on any of our prospects.
Maybe you could, you know, try watching them?
Statistics are useful, but they aren't everything.

Gragnani lacks physicality, which is fine in the AHL, but is basically a requirement in the NHL.
He has vision but his decision making is too slow or just plain bad.
Plus, he's always been suspect defensively.

He's a cheap plug that is barely capable at the NHL level.

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11-30-2011, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
You are right, Grags is garbage. Half this team is. No one calls out Gerbe or Stafford but those 2 also have been trash.
Stafford, agreed.

As for Gerbe...are you out of your Vulcan mind? Nate's one of the very few Sabres who plays as if he has the biggest set of brass ones. Granted, his game may not be the most refined-but Buffalo NEEDS a player like that in the lineup.

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12-01-2011, 07:20 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Maybe you could, you know, try watching them?
Statistics are useful, but they aren't everything.

Gragnani lacks physicality, which is fine in the AHL, but is basically a requirement in the NHL.
He has vision but his decision making is too slow or just plain bad.
Plus, he's always been suspect defensively.

He's a cheap plug that is barely capable at the NHL level.
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.

If you guys can watch players play in the AHL and say this one will transition to the NHL and that one won't, I guess your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. So far I haven't heard one name mentioned as being a better option than Gragnani as our future power play qb. Sekera has never shown much on the power play and doesn't seem like the guy to me. So who are these amazing point men who we have in our system who should be playing in the NHL right now ahead of Gragnani?

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12-01-2011, 07:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.
You can just say Lidstrom and not have to name further names.

However, players of that mold, while not being bit hitters, generally aren't soft.
They'll take hits to make plays, they'll rub people off into the boards in a quirt but effective fashion, they'll block shots by being in the right spot instead of having to go down on the ice heroically and for all the crowd to see, etc etc.

Grags doesn't do that.
Grags, for my taste, is soft.

Now, I'm not all over him because I realize Campbell looked like an AHLer at his age, but I just don't see it in Grags to do a Campbell-like development, or even close it.

He doesn't have the wheels, he doesn't bring the physicality, and honestly, he hasn't been remotely as good offensively as he was in the Philly series.

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12-01-2011, 10:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.

If you guys can watch players play in the AHL and say this one will transition to the NHL and that one won't, I guess your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. So far I haven't heard one name mentioned as being a better option than Gragnani as our future power play qb. Sekera has never shown much on the power play and doesn't seem like the guy to me. So who are these amazing point men who we have in our system who should be playing in the NHL right now ahead of Gragnani?
I think you're severely overrating Gragnani's effectiveness on the PP. That is his best attribute, but he still has not been successful at it. Being his best attribute does not mean that nobody else can do it better. He makes our PP incredibly predictable and static. He essentially turns it into a 4-on-4 because of his refusal to shoot, the PK has almost stopped covering him all together. Or he just makes it easy and stands 5 feet from Ehrhoff so 1 man can cover both.

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12-01-2011, 11:42 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.

If you guys can watch players play in the AHL and say this one will transition to the NHL and that one won't, I guess your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. So far I haven't heard one name mentioned as being a better option than Gragnani as our future power play qb. Sekera has never shown much on the power play and doesn't seem like the guy to me. So who are these amazing point men who we have in our system who should be playing in the NHL right now ahead of Gragnani?
I know that defensemen don't have to be big hitters to succeed, but you either have to at least try to occasionally hit or be able to take hits.
It's not his game to be physical, but completely avoiding it is absolutely unacceptable, especially when he's not particularly great at many things.
He either chooses to poke check or doesn't get involved at all, seemingly fearing that he may actually have be involved in a physical battle.

I don't have a crystal ball, it's simply player evaluation.
Sure, it's not an exact science, but projections are fairly easy to do if you correctly evaluate a player and their skillset.
Gragnani does not really have one attribute that is particularly amazing, which means that he has to be solid at quite a few to have any hope of holding down an NHL job.

Let's take a look at this skills:
Offensively, he has pretty good vision, but it's crippled by bad or delayed decision making.
His passing is good too, but it becomes useless on the power play because he's one-dimensional that the opposing penalty killers don't bother respecting his shot that he doesn't have.
His skating isn't bad, but it's not anything dynamic so he lacks the ability to really lug the puck.
I still take issue with his hunched over stance( especially on rushes) because you're supposed to have your head up to survey the play if you're going to quarterback anything.
Sometimes he'll just sit there on the power play hunched over, honing in on the puck like he believes that he has telekinetic powers that enable him to just call the puck to him.
It's either that or he needs a pair of contacts but doesn't have any, so he has to concentrate really hard to see the puck.
Either way, most of the time it makes me want to yell "seriously, what the **** are you doing?".

Defensively, he's always been suspect and showed little to no improvement until last season.
He can read the play fairly well, but his decision making is average at best.
Either he reacts too slowly to a play or makes the wrong decision.
I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the number of times he's been clowned this season is greater than the number of times he's made a nice play offensively or defensively.
His physicality has already been addressed, so I'll just keep it simple — he lacks it and it's unacceptable.
His pinches on the power play are bad and have led to at least half of our shorthanded goals against.
In his own zone, he either poke checks or doesn't do anything at all and has major problems defending cycles and rushes.

Overall, that's a bunch flaws, some average attributes, and no standout qualities.
His average attributes make him capable of playing at the NHL level, but in the long run, he's not that useful and unlikely to hold down a permanent position in any top six because he doesn't do a whole lot well and lacks some basic things required of NHL defensemen.
He is getting minutes right now because of injuries and the team wanting to give him one final kick at the can, as they have a decision to make on him after this season.
Also, the most important factor is his $550,000 cap hit ($25,000 above the minimum), which helps a team that is close to the cap like us.

As for future PP QB's, take your pick between any of the following: T.J. Brennan, Jérôme Gauthier-Leduc, Brayden McNabb, Mark Pysyk, or even Drew Schiestel.
All have attributes that make them possible candidates in the future (all of them are pretty good skaters with the exception of McNabb and are smart players with vision, passing ability, and are capable of hammering the puck with the exception of Pysyk).
If you're looking for a PP QB on our current roster, Ehrhoff, Leopold, Myers, and Sekera are capable.
Even a forward who has hockey sense is a better option (do we have any?).
Pretty much anyone is more capable than Gragnani though, as he has been ineffective on the power play and kills it more often than not with poor decision making, passing, and positioning.

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12-01-2011, 11:59 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.

If you guys can watch players play in the AHL and say this one will transition to the NHL and that one won't, I guess your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. So far I haven't heard one name mentioned as being a better option than Gragnani as our future power play qb. Sekera has never shown much on the power play and doesn't seem like the guy to me. So who are these amazing point men who we have in our system who should be playing in the NHL right now ahead of Gragnani?
For what Marc's doing on the PP right now, I would give McNabb the same sort of minutes and see what he does. His ability in Kootenay to sling the biscuit quickly and decisively to open players was a big part of their success. He's already up here and I'm sure they don't want to add additional pressure onto the kid, but he's got the skills to run a powerplay once it is in the zone.

Similarly, Drew Schiestel has a lot of talent in the area of PP QBing and has the added benefit of having the wheels and ability to rush the puck and gain the zone with his feet. He's more engaged in his own zone -- not a killer mind you, but he isn't shy.

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12-01-2011, 12:03 PM
  #63
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Words cannot express how much I hate seeing Gragnani on the ice, he is just plain awful. I would rather have one of our AHL defenseman on the ice to give them some experience because they couldn't possibly be worse than Gragnani defensively. Even offensively, the damn drop passes and turnovers make me wanna puke, I'd rather have a forward out there. His lack of physicality is just embarassing, even Ennis is more physical than him. He doesn't deserve the points that he has, in fact he deserves to have negative stats because that is how bad he is. I await the day we trade him for future considerations and I will weep tears of utter joy.

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12-01-2011, 12:05 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
Gonchar, Tallinder, Paul Martin... guys can be successful in the NHL without being big hitters. I do agree Gragnani needs to improve his checking but to say it's so bad that he'll never make it in the NHL? It's not to that point.

If you guys can watch players play in the AHL and say this one will transition to the NHL and that one won't, I guess your crystal ball is a lot better than mine. So far I haven't heard one name mentioned as being a better option than Gragnani as our future power play qb. Sekera has never shown much on the power play and doesn't seem like the guy to me. So who are these amazing point men who we have in our system who should be playing in the NHL right now ahead of Gragnani?
Currently better at QBing an NHL PP then GlutenFree :
Ehrhoff, Leopold, Myers, Sekera
AHLer's who's skills translate to the NHL better then GlutenFree:
Brennan, Schiestel, McNabb, Crawford
Prospects in junior who have better skillsets :
Pysyk, Leduc

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12-01-2011, 12:15 PM
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I'm definitely not thrilled with MAG's play (understatement), but I suspect that if we look back at this thread in the spring, we'll find that some of these comments were regrettable. If it were up to most of you, Brian Campbell never would have had an NHL career. Obviously, the coaches see enough skill with Gragnani that they think he will develop into a serious offensive threat, and that wouldn't surprise me.

BTW, I don't get the "gluten free" moniker. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a joke or an insult, but I have no idea why. You might as well go with "Lasagna." At least that has the same Italian gn=nya sound.

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12-01-2011, 12:24 PM
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I'm definitely not thrilled with MAG's play (understatement), but I suspect that if we look back at this thread in the spring, we'll find that some of these comments were regrettable. If it were up to most of you, Brian Campbell never would have had an NHL career. Obviously, the coaches see enough skill with Gragnani that they think he will develop into a serious offensive threat, and that wouldn't surprise me.

BTW, I don't get the "gluten free" moniker. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a joke or an insult, but I have no idea why. You might as well go with "Lasagna." At least that has the same Italian gn=nya sound.
I'll take that bet.

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12-01-2011, 12:24 PM
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I'm definitely not thrilled with MAG's play (understatement), but I suspect that if we look back at this thread in the spring, we'll find that some of these comments were regrettable. If it were up to most of you, Brian Campbell never would have had an NHL career. Obviously, the coaches see enough skill with Gragnani that they think he will develop into a serious offensive threat, and that wouldn't surprise me.

BTW, I don't get the "gluten free" moniker. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a joke or an insult, but I have no idea why. You might as well go with "Lasagna." At least that has the same Italian gn=nya sound.
I don't get it either

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12-01-2011, 12:26 PM
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I'm definitely not thrilled with MAG's play (understatement), but I suspect that if we look back at this thread in the spring, we'll find that some of these comments were regrettable. If it were up to most of you, Brian Campbell never would have had an NHL career. Obviously, the coaches see enough skill with Gragnani that they think he will develop into a serious offensive threat, and that wouldn't surprise me.

BTW, I don't get the "gluten free" moniker. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a joke or an insult, but I have no idea why. You might as well go with "Lasagna." At least that has the same Italian gn=nya sound.
I don't think I'll regret any of my comments.
He was seen as not having an NHL future by almost everyone until the playoffs.
Seven games doesn't erase six years of simply not being very good.

The reasoning behind calling him "gluten free" is that "everything gluten free sucks":
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everything gluten free sucks... therefore, marc andre glutenfree

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12-01-2011, 12:27 PM
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I don't think I'll regret any of my comments.
He was seen as not having an NHL future by almost everyone until the playoffs.
Seven games doesn't erase six years of simply not being very good.

The reasoning behind calling him "gluten free" is that "everything gluten free sucks":
Horrible.

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12-01-2011, 12:33 PM
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Horrible.
i think it's terrific

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12-01-2011, 12:39 PM
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i think it's terrific
I still approve.

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12-01-2011, 12:56 PM
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I don't think I'll regret any of my comments.
He was seen as not having an NHL future by almost everyone until the playoffs.
Seven games doesn't erase six years of simply not being very good.

The reasoning behind calling him "gluten free" is that "everything gluten free sucks":
He was the AHL defensemen of the year last year, so I doubt that "almost everyone" thought he didn't have an NHL future.

I guess I still don't get the gluten free thing, but then again, I'm a California weirdo now, and half of my family is on a gluten free diet (and a lot of it is pretty tasty if you know what you're doing). This is starting to remind me of the Roy in flip-flops pic. Oh well.

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12-01-2011, 01:05 PM
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He was the AHL defensemen of the year last year, so I doubt that "almost everyone" thought he didn't have an NHL future.

I guess I still don't get the gluten free thing, but then again, I'm a California weirdo now, and half of my family is on a gluten free diet (and a lot of it is pretty tasty if you know what you're doing). This is starting to remind me of the Roy in flip-flops pic. Oh well.
If anything, winning the Eddie Shore Award pretty much guarantees that he won't have much of an impact in the NHL.
I mean, look at all of the great players that have won it.

Maybe he'll be the next Any Elmore.

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12-01-2011, 01:30 PM
  #74
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If anything, winning the Eddie Shore Award pretty much guarantees that he won't have much of an impact in the NHL.
I mean, look at all of the great players that have won it.

Maybe he'll be the next Any Elmore.
Absolutely. You have to go a whole three years back to find a defenseman on that list who got significant minutes on a cup winning team.

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12-01-2011, 01:40 PM
  #75
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Absolutely. You have to go a whole three years back to find a defenseman on that list who got significant minutes on a cup winning team.
So that's 2 out of the last 15 winners -- Boychuk and Kronwall. The point remains, it's not a who's who of great NHL defensemen who win that award. It's nothing to base a guy's ability on when compared to the whole of that list that features six NHL regulars since in 29 seasons. That's a pretty fair rate of misses there.

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